Do Protestants by and large think Catholics are 'legalistic?'

[DrPiano]

I believe that the members Roman Catholic Church are the ones who confuse disciplines and Jesus’ commands. There is only ONE unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the deliberate refusal to accept God’s grace. The RCC has so many rules that its people (not all, but a great many) try hard to follow the rules, but forget what the game is all about.

The point of all this (life) is to be more God-like every day, to be more a disciple of Jesus, and to establish a relationship with Him. So that we grow in holiness. The RCC, IMHO, has, over the 2000 years, become like the old Jewish law, so full of rules that the essence is in danger of being lost.

The church is not here to give us salvation, but rather to help us along the way, by providing sources of grace through the sacraments, and instruction so we stay on the path. In many ways, it seems the rules have become cumbersome, and the reasons for the rituals forgotten. Used to be meat on Friday was a sin, now it is not. That is the problem with disciplines, they change over time.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can’t remember ever hearing a sermon on having a personal relationship with Jesus alone. No church, no Mary, no Saints needed, just me and the Lord. That would be welcome to hear.

The RCC, from what I can tell, wouldn’t dispute that there’s only one unforgivable sin! All sins are forgivable if you ask for forgiveness. But the point is to grow in holiness each day of your life and the “rules” of the RCC (really, I see them as gifts, not burdens) help us do that. They show us those things that will hurt us (and ask us to not do them) and those things that are good for us, that will help us grow in holiness (and ask us to practice them).

As far as that sermon… I get it almost every week from my VERY Catholic parish Not to mention on the radio from Fr. John Riccardo (does “Christ is the Answer”, although I’m not sure if the program is broadcast outside of the Ave Maria Radio Network). Our priest is ALWAYS talking about falling more deeply in love with Jesus.

 

[piperspop]

As far as that sermon… I get it almost every week from my VERY Catholic parish Not to mention on the radio from Fr. John Riccardo (does “Christ is the Answer”, although I’m not sure if the program is broadcast outside of the Ave Maria Radio Network). Our priest is ALWAYS talking about falling more deeply in love with Jesus.

God bless you and your priest!!!

 

[JPUSC]

I think some Eastern Catholics think Latin Rite Catholics are legalistic.

 

[whatevergirl]

Perhaps the Catholic Church’s designation of particular sins as mortal sins is one of the reasons why some Protestants view Catholics as legalistic? There can never be a feeling of security for anybody living under the kind of belief system here proposed. It is the idea that at any moment a slip may be made that will put a person in immediate jeopardy of eternal damnation. It’s easy to equate it with having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head every minute of every single day. The picture of a God suddenly getting so mad that He will immediately damn you to hell for all eternity and leave you hanging with that terrible threat weighing heavily upon you until you take the appropriate action to get back into the right relationship with Him is, as far as I’m aware, unknown in Evangelical circles.

Speculatively,
Mick

**Hi Mick;

I’m glad you brought this up here. Actually, Catholics don’t view slips as causing one to lose his/her salvation–not at all. Now, mortal sin, being a bigger deal than a venial sin, has three components and all three have to present in order for a mortal sin to occur. One**, it has to be of a “grievous matter.” That means it has to be a big deal, like taking somebody’s life or doing something that can never be changed. Two, there has to have been “sufficient reflection.” That means you had to have thought about it, it doesn’t just happen. You don’t just wake up one morning and say, “Oh my goodness! I’ve created a mortal sin.” The** third **is that there has to have been “full consent of the will.” This means that you really have to choose to do it. Again, this is the idea that you don’t accidentally fall in to mortal sin. So, we don’t just ‘slip up’ into mortal sin, or serious sin.

So not all sins are created equal. If I steal a lollipop from someone, is that the same as stealing millions of dollars from my company? The two are equal in the sense that both violate my relationship with God, and I’m betraying Him on some level. But, the hurt that I cause to stealing millions of dollars from my company will be far worse than stealing a piece of candy from my neighbor. Although, I would be very angry if someone stole my chocolate bar if I really was in the mood for chocolate that day!

I think the GREATEST misconception between Protestants and Catholics, on the Protestant side…is that they tend to think we Catholics concentrate more on sin, than the mercy of God. That couldn’t be further from the truth. We know that if we are repentant, and contrite, and ask God for mercy, He is quick to give it…and help us improve.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[whatevergirl]

I believe that the members Roman Catholic Church are the ones who confuse disciplines and Jesus’ commands. There is only ONE unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the deliberate refusal to accept God’s grace. The RCC has so many rules that its people (not all, but a great many) try hard to follow the rules, but forget what the game is all about.

The point of all this (life) is to be more God-like every day, to be more a disciple of Jesus, and to establish a relationship with Him. So that we grow in holiness. The RCC, IMHO, has, over the 2000 years, become like the old Jewish law, so full of rules that the essence is in danger of being lost.

The church is not here to give us salvation, but rather to help us along the way, by providing sources of grace through the sacraments, and instruction so we stay on the path. In many ways, it seems the rules have become cumbersome, and the reasons for the rituals forgotten. Used to be meat on Friday was a sin, now it is not. That is the problem with disciplines, they change over time.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can’t remember ever hearing a sermon on having a personal relationship with Jesus alone. No church, no Mary, no Saints needed, just me and the Lord. That would be welcome to hear.

**I was in agreement until your last paragraph. I hear that we must be more Christ like in every mass, practically…I don’t believe I have ever heard a priest talk about asking Mary for prayers, or saints for prayers…in order to be more Christ like.

The truth is we are all a community of followers of Christ, the saints and Mary. So, asking for their prayers is not a bad thing, at all…in fact, asking Mary for her intercession to Christ, offers us blessings and graces, according to The Church.

But, I honestly haven’t heard ever (and I’m a cradle Catholic) a homily based on asking Mary and the saints for prayers, in oder to grow closer to God.**

 

[NDfan]

We believe strictly salvation is given to us by the grace of God…by the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross. When it comes to works, we believe in what St Paul taught…faith without works is ‘dead.’ If we are to be hearers of the Word, we are to be doers also…do you agree? Catholics who say that we can earn our way into heaven would be inaccurate. But, I think where people get tripped up, is that as Catholics, we believe that if we are to say we are followers of Christ, we should be living out our faith as best as we can…but still, anything that I achieve for the Kingdom of God, is only because of the grace of God.

Beautifully said One small correction. James said faith without works is a dead faith not Paul.

 

[NDfan]

how can this be unknown to them, do they not read their bibles lololol and we catholics are know of not reading the bible lolol well here is the verse about moral and venial sins …

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother – provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.

Adolfo not to derail the thread but this is not categorizing sins into venial and mortal. Christ equates hatred with murder, lust with adultery etc. etc. You are failing to cite the rest of the verse and John’s conclusion to decipher the true meaning of the text.

In verse 17: All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death.

In verse 16 John is talking about 1 specific sin that leads to death. It states there is A sin, not there is sin implying plural. So the question is what is the one sin that leads to death. That would be someone who is living an unrepentant life outside of Christ.

John speaks of this in the rest of his conclusion when he talks about the children of GOD not making a practice of sinning but that the evil one is in control of this life and there are those that succumb to him. In verse 21 he wraps this teaching up by plainly stating to keep away from anything that might take the place of GOD in your hearts.

 

[DrPiano]

**Hi Mick;

I’m glad you brought this up here. Actually, Catholics don’t view slips as causing one to lose his/her salvation–not at all. Now, mortal sin, being a bigger deal than a venial sin, has three components and all three have to present in order for a mortal sin to occur. One**, it has to be of a “grievous matter.” That means it has to be a big deal, like taking somebody’s life or doing something that can never be changed. Two, there has to have been “sufficient reflection.” That means you had to have thought about it, it doesn’t just happen. You don’t just wake up one morning and say, “Oh my goodness! I’ve created a mortal sin.” The** third **is that there has to have been “full consent of the will.” This means that you really have to choose to do it. Again, this is the idea that you don’t accidentally fall in to mortal sin. So, we don’t just ‘slip up’ into mortal sin, or serious sin.

So not all sins are created equal. If I steal a lollipop from someone, is that the same as stealing millions of dollars from my company? The two are equal in the sense that both violate my relationship with God, and I’m betraying Him on some level. But, the hurt that I cause to stealing millions of dollars from my company will be far worse than stealing a piece of candy from my neighbor. Although, I would be very angry if someone stole my chocolate bar if I really was in the mood for chocolate that day!

I think the GREATEST misconception between Protestants and Catholics, on the Protestant side…is that they tend to think we Catholics concentrate more on sin, than the mercy of God. That couldn’t be further from the truth. We know that if we are repentant, and contrite, and ask God for mercy, He is quick to give it…and help us improve.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks for addressing this, Whatevergirl! I had meant to as well, but hadn’t really formulated what I wanted to say and you said it perfectly!

Coming from a protestant background (although NOT the once-saved-always-saved flavor OR the predestination flavor), I ran into people who thought this about the Catholics (and perhaps held some of those views myself ) and It’s been a joy to learn the truth. I will mention, though, that some Catholics (just as some protestants) certainly don’t help to dispel this myth with questions like “Did I sin when…?” To someone who doesn’t understand, it can certainly come off legalistically, rather than being an opportunity to “form one’s conscience for next time.”

Personally, my favorite question to ask is “why?” - especially since in the Catholic Church I KNOW there’s always an answer, even if I don’t know what that answer is right now.

 

[whatevergirl]

Beautifully said One small correction. James said faith without works is a dead faith not Paul.

I know, I know…lol Someone else pointed that out. I must have had St Paul on my mind.

 

[NDfan]

I know, I know…lol Someone else pointed that out. I must have had St Paul on my mind.

There’s nothing wrong with having St. Paul on your mind sister

PEACE

 

[whatevergirl]

Thanks for addressing this, Whatevergirl! I had meant to as well, but hadn’t really formulated what I wanted to say and you said it perfectly!

Coming from a protestant background (although NOT the once-saved-always-saved flavor OR the predestination flavor), I ran into people who thought this about the Catholics (and perhaps held some of those views myself ) and It’s been a joy to learn the truth. I will mention, though, that some Catholics (just as some protestants) certainly don’t help to dispel this myth with questions like “Did I sin when…?” To someone who doesn’t understand, it can certainly come off legalistically, rather than being an opportunity to “form one’s conscience for next time.”

Personally, my favorite question to ask is “why?” - especially since in the Catholic Church I KNOW there’s always an answer, even if I don’t know what that answer is right now.

Yes, so true…and I love your username, by the way.

I will add also…let’s not forget, the Catholic Church, is a human one, made up of human beings who sometimes say, do, think the wrong things…If I meet a Catholic who is overanalyzing everything she does, says, and is worried about her salvation from sins that she already confessed and were forgiven for…and have long since repented over…I do gently correct her, that Jesus didn’t come to condemn us, He came to save us. In His judgment, we find His love.

When I explain to my Lutheran BIL, who used to be practicing Catholic…(he always will be a Catholic) …I explain…we do not hold ourselves as ‘better than’ anyone…The Catholic faith is simply put…the fullness of Truth on earth. Many non Catholics believe what Catholics believe, but the fullness of the faith can only be found through having a relationship with Christ, through the gift of His Church. He gave us many gifts through the Church, but many have chosen to abandon those gifts–ie, confession, the Eucharist, the vocation of the priesthood, etc…

Those are gifts from God, not manmade concoctions–thus the fullness of Truth can be found here…not dismantled, taken apart, broken or watered down…there is nothing missing in the Catholic Church. I don’t want to follow a faith, that takes out less than humanly convenient parts of Jesus’ messages, to suit myself. I’m sure I could find a ‘church’ out there who appeals to everything I’d like to follow…but then, is that objective Truth?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe that the members Roman Catholic Church are the ones who confuse disciplines and Jesus’ commands. There is only ONE unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the deliberate refusal to accept God’s grace. The RCC has so many rules that its people (not all, but a great many) try hard to follow the rules, but forget what the game is all about.

The point of all this (life) is to be more God-like every day, to be more a disciple of Jesus, and to establish a relationship with Him. So that we grow in holiness. The RCC, IMHO, has, over the 2000 years, become like the old Jewish law, so full of rules that the essence is in danger of being lost.

The church is not here to give us salvation, but rather to help us along the way, by providing sources of grace through the sacraments, and instruction so we stay on the path. In many ways, it seems the rules have become cumbersome, and the reasons for the rituals forgotten. Used to be meat on Friday was a sin, now it is not. That is the problem with disciplines, they change over time.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can’t remember ever hearing a sermon on having a personal relationship with Jesus alone. No church, no Mary, no Saints needed, just me and the Lord. That would be welcome to hear.

Gabriel of 12;

Very nice post; The only word one needs to recall in all this is “Disciple” where we get the word “Discipline” of Jesus. As far as personal savior, you cant get more personal with God unless you have his body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Coming to this understanding of unending faith only grows ones Christianity.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I know, I know…lol Someone else pointed that out. I must have had St Paul on my mind.

Cuz it’s the year of St. Paul??

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Adolfo not to derail the thread but this is not categorizing sins into venial and mortal. Christ equates hatred with murder, lust with adultery etc. etc. You are failing to cite the rest of the verse and John’s conclusion to decipher the true meaning of the text.

Gabriel of 12;

Beautifully said NDfan; you are not far from the Kingdom. One thought should be mentioned, Venial sins are confessed directly to God as Catholics these are forgiven. Mortal sins have to be confessed, God does not change; Confession and sacrifice for mortal sins have been the norm since the Old Covenant. When one breaks the New Covenant of God by falling into mortal sin, a court is required, Two witnesses Priest, Holy Spirit, and our advocate Jesus before the throne of God with the Penitent. Just as you break a traffic law in the law of the land one is taken to court for justice. The good news is Jesus paid the price for all our sins, we just have to confess with a contrite heart in the blood of Jesus. There is much more to expand here.

Peace be with you.

 

[distracted]

I ask, because from time to time, I listen to a few Protestant radio programs on my way home from work, and often, the hosts will refer to Catholics as legalistic, or they will be speaking about legalism, and I get the strong sense that they are referring to Catholics.
.

.

i wasn’t catechized as a child (cradle Catholic) so for many years, i was a “kinda” Protestant… …

I accepted it when a Protestant told me, for example, that the word Purgatory is not in the bible… (I had read the NT when a teen, twice… and so i knew this to be true… but obviously, i needed an interpreter because i either didn’t get much from my own reading and / or lost a lot of it throughout the yrs of not attending Mass… ) so anyway, i figured there was no Purgatory. Funny how i never rejected the Catholic Church in any way, despite believing such stuff… but in any case… (about 10 yrs ago), i decided to start learning about the Catholic faith… At some point i heard that it ws a mortal sin to miss sun. Mass… Well, at that point in my life, i was only going to Sun Mass when i felt like it, even though i was trying to live a Christian life (have, more or less all my life)… When i
1st heard it was a mortal sin to miss Sun Mass, I was kinda blown away… and got angry - my 1st thought was: That’s too legalistic!! God wouldn’t throw someone into Hell just for missing Sun Mass (& He won’t… if there is a good reason like illness, etc.)… but in any case… I accepted the belief that it was a mortal sin just the same & started going every Sun… Then i started really enjoying Mass - a LOT… so i started going every day…

best (legalistic or otherwise) thing that’s ever happened to me…

 

[whatevergirl]

i wasn’t catechized as a child (cradle Catholic) so for many years, i was a “kinda” Protestant… …

I accepted it when a Protestant told me, for example, that the word Purgatory is not in the bible… (I had read the NT when a teen, twice… and so i knew this to be true… but obviously, i needed an interpreter because i either didn’t get much from my own reading and / or lost a lot of it throughout the yrs of not attending Mass… ) so anyway, i figured there was no Purgatory. Funny how i never rejected the Catholic Church in any way, despite believing such stuff… but in any case… (about 10 yrs ago), i decided to start learning about the Catholic faith… At some point i heard that it ws a mortal sin to miss sun. Mass… Well, at that point in my life, i was only going to Sun Mass when i felt like it, even though i was trying to live a Christian life (have, more or less all my life)… When i
1st heard it was a mortal sin to miss Sun Mass, I was kinda blown away… and got angry - my 1st thought was: That’s too legalistic!! God wouldn’t throw someone into Hell just for missing Sun Mass (& He won’t… if there is a good reason like illness, etc.)… but in any case… I accepted the belief that it was a mortal sin just the same & started going every Sun… Then i started really enjoying Mass - a LOT… so i started going every day…

best (legalistic or otherwise) thing that’s ever happened to me…

lol, you’re funny.

Well, missing mass is not a mortal sin, unless the three elements as I mention above, are present. Since mass revolves around the Eucharist, it can be likened to taking for granted Jesus’ body and blood…by willfully not going, putting some forethought into it, etc…My husband often has said, that he ‘doubts’ God would cast someone into hell over missing mass, even if it was willfull. (thread for another time lol) None of us will ever know the awesome mind and mercy of God…so, I don’t really think about hell, other than knowing what Jesus said about it…and that it exists. I don’t get caught up in thinking about it, because I think a person can lose sight of the real meaning of following Christ, and staying out of hell can cause a person to feel mechanical about Discipleship. We are to be cheerful followers of Christ, not doing so to only avoid hell. (although, that would be a byproduct of following Christ, indeed)

I am glad you enjoy mass so much, distracted…I would love to go daily. When we lived up north, the parish was within walking distance from my house, and they had a 6:45 am mass time, so I would go daily during Lent…well, for one year I did that.

 

[DrPiano]

lol, you’re funny.

Well, missing mass is not a mortal sin, unless the three elements as I mention above, are present. Since mass revolves around the Eucharist, it can be likened to taking for granted Jesus’ body and blood…by willfully not going, putting some forethought into it, etc…My husband often has said, that he ‘doubts’ God would cast someone into hell over missing mass, even if it was willfull. (thread for another time lol) None of us will ever know the awesome mind and mercy of God…so, I don’t really think about hell, other than knowing what Jesus said about it…and that it exists. I don’t get caught up in thinking about it, because I think a person can lose sight of the real meaning of following Christ, and staying out of hell can cause a person to feel mechanical about Discipleship. We are to be cheerful followers of Christ, not doing so to only avoid hell. (although, that would be a byproduct of following Christ, indeed)

I am glad you enjoy mass so much, distracted…I would love to go daily. When we lived up north, the parish was within walking distance from my house, and they had a 6:45 am mass time, so I would go daily during Lent…well, for one year I did that.

The way I’ve heard it explained is that essentially missing Mass is also a violation of the first commandment to Love God above everything else… including sleep… or the television… or (fill in the blank)… and that makes a lot of sense to me. If I deliberately miss Mass, I’m saying that X is more important than spending time with God and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist

 

[whatevergirl]

The way I’ve heard it explained is that essentially missing Mass is also a violation of the first commandment to Love God above everything else… including sleep… or the television… or (fill in the blank)… and that makes a lot of sense to me. If I deliberately miss Mass, I’m saying that X is more important than spending time with God and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist

Yes, exactly. While many feel the Catholic Church and Her ‘rules’ to be restrictive, really it’s quite the opposite…we are set free when we have a set of guidelines if you will, to best follow our Lord. The Catholic Church leaves no stone unturned…doesn’t water down the faith to suit individuals…but is unwavering in Her position on morality, and Discipleship. I didn’t always think this. I used to try to find a loophole here and there, or question the ‘authority’ of things, but over time, through much prayer, and my own research…The Catholic Church is the fullness of faith, that I believe Jesus wanted us to have, on earth. She always takes the high moral ground, even if She is persecuted for it.

 

[adolfo123]

Many thanks for your contribution but the designation of sins into categories of “mortal” and “venial” is a distinctively Catholic understanding hence my speculation as to why some Protestants might possibly see Catholics as legalistic. Do you have any thoughts as to why some Protestants think along those lines?

Curiously,
Mick

because they believe in faith alone (un-biblical Jas.2:24) they believe that is all they need… they do not see the works= love in action. so love is the works seen as legalistic works , yet is Love in action … like the passion of Christ… the whole passion in one view was so legalistic; prophecy after prophecy, Jesus even noted he had to ask for drink to fulfilled everything to the dot…
its getting hard to get my point across so sorry if i sound confusing

 

[whatevergirl]

What people should liken this to is…imagine being married and your spouse tells you he/she loves you, but the actions show the absolute opposite…the spouse cheats, lies, never comes home…abuses…ridicules…etc.etc…but every so often, the spouse utters…“I love you, though,” to you…would you believe that the person really loved you, if the actions constantly showed the contrary? Probably not. Same is true for God, while God doesn’t need our love, He wants a relationship with us. If we say we love Him, we should naturally want to show that through the way we live our lives. God knows our hearts, but if we say we love Him, we should want to show Him.