Do Protestants have "Faith"?

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mmsiciliana said:
**I know Jesus, Jesus is a friend of mine, and you, Charlesh, are no Jesus.” **
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I never said I was. I said we should imitate Him.
talking with you is like talking to a fundamentalist Baptist.
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No. Baptists base their arguments on emotional reactions. I base mine on reason and the example of the saints. If you had said that I was like a Calvinist, you might have flattered me. 😛 Let me note that your comments are just brimming with raw, unharnessed emotion. I am trying to sit down and reason with you, and you are all charged up. Maybe we should just cool it a while and talk later. 👍 Happy Easter, Christ is risen!
 
wisdomseeker said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The cause of the protestant reformation rests on the shoulders of the catholic church for its abuses. Do you think the way the catholic church treated some of the reformers was the will of Christ? Was the murder of Huss with the support of the church an expression of the love of Christ?

wisdomseeker
you like to point out the sins of the catholics, why dont read the true history? how about here in america when catholics came to this country how they were opressed and forced to become protestants. how about in england where many died for being catholics? how about millions of catholics who died because of their faith?
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If catholics want to attack Luther and the reformers as being evil men then its only fair to point out the sins of the catholic church to give us a balance… 👍
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Why not. If you don’t believe your Church is the only way to go and everyone else is headed for Hell on false faith, why bother devoting yourself to it.

I would rather have Catholics be honest and say everyone else is damned forever, rather than pretend otherwise just to be nice.
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I believe the Roman Catholic faith is the right one (only one) but don’t believe non-Catholics are all bound for Hell… The Church does not teach that either… althogh it IS easier for a person to get to Heaven if catholic
 
saint_rafael said:
Gottle of Geer,

When I said that there was no grace outside the Church, I gave the exception of baptism, which is a Catholic sacrament. I made it clear that there was only one exception to the rule and that is baptism, when the trinitarian formula is used by others.

I did not say that grace is not available to Catholics outside the sacraments. Grace is certainly available to Cathoics through sacramentals, prayer.
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It is a pity that was not made clear in the post 😦​

The seven sacraments are the only visible forms of grace. Only the Catholic sacraments can be said to convey grace with one hundred percent certainty. The only visible forms.
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They do not act unfailingly, because their effect can be hindered by the recipient. As to certainty, a Catholic receiving & sacrament & a Protestant praying outside the sacraments are pretty much in the same position.​

Conversion is possible to non-Catholics.
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Not if your previous statements were accurate. If they can receive grace to become Catholics, it follows that they are not Catholics when they receive that grace. Which means that Christians who are not Catholics can receive grace without being Catholic - which you said was a heresy. Have I misunderstood you ?​

God leads other in a direction. Points them in the right way through prongings and suggestions. Humans use reason to find truth. It is through their use of the intellect that non-Catholics see the truth. Most importantly, it takes other people to guide them there. that is why we need evangelization for Catholic conversion. Catholics with the sanctfying grace of God to tell people about the Church.
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c659smith said:
That my friend is one of the luckiest men in the world that he would have the chance when human death comes knocking on the door.

Now lets say that he does not die and through medical science is able to make a full recovery and then does not accept the fullness of faith even though he now knows through this revelation,but 3 years later dies in his sleep and does not act upon this grace.
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Then God is his judge…

but I would not want to be in his shoes.

But seriously, we don’t know exactly what or how much has been revealed to another because we can’t go into someone else’s brain and check it out. Therefore, it’s not up to us to decide.
 
mmsiciliana said:
Then God is his judge…

but I would not want to be in his shoes.

But seriously, we don’t know exactly what or how much has been revealed to another because we can’t go into someone else’s brain and check it out. Therefore, it’s not up to us to decide.
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I am in full agreement and so is the Catholic Church.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

It is a pity that was not made clear in the post :(## They do not act unfailingly, because their effect can be hindered by the recipient. As to certainty, a Catholic receiving & sacrament & a Protestant praying outside the sacraments are pretty much in the same position. ## Not if your previous statements were accurate. If they can receive grace to become Catholics, it follows that they are not Catholics when they receive that grace. Which means that Christians who are not Catholics can receive grace without being Catholic - which you said was a heresy. Have I misunderstood you ?​

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These are not my own words, but wrote by a very wise and learned Priest.
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[/This question of Protestant “faith” is an important one, because it is part of the great rupture in the Church’s attitude to the heretics. As St. Thomas says, heretics do not have the virtue of Faith because the motive of their acceptance of doctrines is not the authority of God revealing but rather themselves. Only the Catholic Faith is the true Faith; only it is supernatural. Per se, the Protestants do not have this Faith. Objectively speaking, they do not profess the true Faith, but rather heresy, which is not supernatural obviously. Now it many be true that individual protestants are heretics only materially, but we cannot know who does or does not profess these heresies “in good faith” so to speak. All we can know is that Protestants profess heresy, and we must assume that they mean what they say when they profess these things. Pius XII in “Mystici Corporis” very clearly says that only those who profess the True Faith and who are in union with the Catholic hierarchy may be considered members of the Church. All others are encouraged to leave that state in which they may have no surety of salvation. Those are his words, not mine. Every Protestant traditionally, until Vatican II had to solemnly renounce the heresies which he or she professed and make a profession of Faith according to the Tridentine-Vatican I Profession of Faith which explicitely affirms all that the Protestants rejected. The Church never claimed to know who or who was not only a material heretic. Only God can know to what degree a person is or is not in invincible ignorance. But objectively speaking they had to renounce their heresy. The same is true for the Nestorians, Monophysites and all the other ancient heresies.
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The Faith is not a matter of degrees but of “all or nothing”. There are not fundamental and non-fundamental dogmas (an idea condemned by Pius XI). All are equally accepted and for the same reason: because they are revealed and because the One Church proposes them to be believed. It is surely a thing from the devil to assume that Protestants are all in good faith and only material heretics. I was a Protestant myself. When I began to learn what the ancient Church taught, I felt myself virtually compelled to accept it. I firmly believe that God gives actual graces to Protestants to embrace the Faith when they start to be exposed to it. If Protestants do not put an obstacle to that grace, they will convert. It does them a great disservice to assume they are in a fine state and that they have a true Faith, etc. They certainly profess a false religion and per se, they do not have the virtue of Faith. If they do, it is despite the fact that they are Protestants, not because of it.
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It is a very great heresy to say that the Protestants have the virtue of supernatural Faith, for Faith is a gift of God and He cannot infuse falsehood into the intellect of anyone. Their religion is not an instrument of salvatin, but in itself, an instrument of damnation. If they are saved it is because they never really adhered to their religion. And who of us can be sure which Protestant does or does not really adhere to their heresy?
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Gottle_of_Geer said:

It is a pity that was not made clear in the post :(## They do not act unfailingly, because their effect can be hindered by the recipient. As to certainty, a Catholic receiving & sacrament & a Protestant praying outside the sacraments are pretty much in the same position. ## Not if your previous statements were accurate. If they can receive grace to become Catholics, it follows that they are not Catholics when they receive that grace. Which means that Christians who are not Catholics can receive grace without being Catholic - which you said was a heresy. Have I misunderstood you ?​

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Protestants are not in the same position for protestants are refusing graces available through the Catholic Church, even the originators of the reformation --Martin Luther and King Henry recognized that.

Look protestants are saved again and again and again. This which violates many of their own creeds.

Catholics believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sin.
Many Protestant denominations are now saying well you really do not need to be Baptized. The reformers are turning in their graves.

What Catholics have is Jesus in the Real Presence and graces from the Holy Spirit through the sacraments that are not available to other Christian Faiths.

The two sacramentals that Protestants have is baptism and matrimony as these would be recognized as the bible states for a Priest or Bishop is not necessary. The truth of the matter is Protestants are even destroying the Sanctity of these with divorce for compatiability and remarriage which is definitely a no no right out of the bible and protestants know it. Baptism well many are doing away with that as unnecessary esspecially the new mega Churches.

Now Matrimony would be valid between a Protestant and Protestant. Between a Protestant and Catholic unless special permission is granted the marriage may not be valid as the Catholic having the fullness of the faith is going outside the faith for a sacramental. For this ask a priest.

The Sacraments missing is Communion, Confession, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Annoiting of the sick.

The reformers understood the Sacramentals but many years later the Protestant Churches abandoned them or recognized they were not valid due to not having Apostolic Succession.

Plus while protestants have the bible as the Catholic Church. The bible is not infalliblie as it is a book. Protestants are missing Sacred Traditions and Sacred Teachings.

Plus they are missing the teachings of the early Church Fathers.

Protestants are not One Church under Christ and thus are not one in Christ for the early Church Fathers recognized the authority of the Church and the Real Presence (Transubstansiation)

Protestants are breaking apart and many of them are on the brink of collapse.This can be shown by the many different denominations. Even a Baptist Church down the road from eachother will have different teachings. The same goes for the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, etc…

If at the time the church A Protestant goes to does not meet with their lifestyle than Protestants will change their church.

Now what the Catholic Church says is that the Church is not the Judge and that Jesus is. However the Catholic Church being one Church is the way to salvation. This can be shown by attending a Catholic Church in Rome to Australia to Africa to the U.S… It does not change, and has not for over 2000 years and has grown by leaps and bounds every year. While the Protestants denominations are shrinking in size. as a Catholic it is the same no matter where you go. May be some cultural differences but I can follow along never missing a beat even in a different language. Our Boss has the final say.
 
charlesh said:
Being a peacenik is not Christian. Speaking the Truth is. Was John the baptizer not “loving his enemies” when he called out to the Pharisees: “Ye brood of vipers, who hath showed you to flee from the wrath to come?”

Was Jesus disobeying his own Law when he said: “O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil?” He said “you are evil”! Not, "I love you but the doctrine you teach is evil and not true.

Look at the example of the Saints. For example, when someone begged Pope St. Pius X to “go soft” on the Modernists, he replied:

Kindness is for fools! They want them to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses but they ought to be beaten with fists! In a duel you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can! War is not made with charity, it is a struggle, a duel. If Our Lord were not terrible he would not have given an example in this, too. See how he treated the Philistines, the sowers of error, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the traitors in the temple. He scourged them with whips!

Not that I particularly want to beat Luther with my fists, but I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade…or a demon a demon.

That’s relativistic thinking, my brother. We follow perennial Catholic Truth, we don’t try to change it or make war on God and his Church, no matter how right we **think **or **feel **we are.
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I do because there are real demons and then there are just simple misguided Human Beings who make monumental mistakes. As my priest reminded us on sunday, even Judas Iscariot himself is not allowed to be judged in such manner as the Church teachings forbid it, because after all the bible only indicates his way of death and not the salvational state of the soul as no human being has a right to state who is saved and who isnt in such a personal manner. Jesus knew what judas was going to do, yet he does not exclude Judas from the Last Supper and the washing of the feet.

Jesus was calling the pharisees Hypocritical and therefore evil. They had good things coming out of their mouths and Hypocracy in their hearts. Hypocracy is evil and hypocracy is from the devil.

He did not say “you’re a demon” and/or “you’re going to the other place”, he actually said “you are evil” but was not condeming them to damnation but rather telling them of their hypocracy so they could have the chance to be saved from it and Repent. If this was not the case then why did he say to Saint Peter, immediatly after telling him he’s the foundational rock of the church, in matthew 16:18, these words… “Get thee behind me Satan…” and yet I’m sure you’ll agree that Peter was not of this force himself and was NOT being totally condemned by Jesus? Jesus actually recognised the evil intent in the heart(Just like with the pharisees) and that it was from external influence. He did not condemn them but was showing them and telling them of their hypocracy and condeming that so that they would have the chance to repent.

Much much earlier in the bible, God the father says “Mankind has evil in his heart” and “I will never again flood the earth for the sake of man”, this is more straight-forward and cannot be forgotten. Esentially evey human being has the capacity for evil in their heart, but those that recognise and counter act that are NOT evil but are Saints, the otherside who recognise and yet choose the path of darkness are NOT good and are called Satanists…

But almost every human being is not exclusivly to either side **but somewhere in the middle, **this is another reason why we have no right to judge the salvational state of any human being no matter what actual sins they committed. Yes that includes Hitler too…

\We can think that we know, but esentially only God actually knows and we are really committing the original sin. Pride and hypocracy are in every human being(except Mary who was the first who had neither) and what tainted out existence.

We are not allowed to judge the salvational state of personal human beings, only their Sins are we allowed to judge.
 
justasking4 said:
The cause of the protestant reformation rests on the shoulders of the catholic church for its abuses.
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This is a very interesting formulation, and parallels the problem of mankind since the dawn of humanity. Blame (shifting responsibility to others for ones’ own actions) has been evident from the Garden of Eden. Adam blames the woman, the woman blames the serpent. No one is willing to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions.

How is it that Christ was able to be Holy in spite of the fact that the Pharisees were doing abuses? How is is that there were so many righteous Jews, in spite of the fact that the authorities in their day were doing wrong? It is because Holy people take responsibility for their own behavior, and do what is right, no matter what!
justasking4 said:
Do you think the way the catholic church treated some of the reformers was the will of Christ? Was the murder of Huss with the support of the church an expression of the love of Christ?
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I think that a great deal of unchristlike behavior occurred on both sides, and that the heart of Jesus is greately grieved by those who call themselves by His name.

This does not invalidate the Teaching of Jesus. The actions of Judas in betraying the teachings of the Lord do not make His Teachings wrong.
justasking4 said:
If catholics want to attack Luther and the reformers as being evil men then its only fair to point out the sins of the catholic church to give us a balance… 👍
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Have you ever considered that “balancing” blaming behavior is not the will of Christ? Did He not say that we should remove the log from our own eye? If you believe it is wrong to attack the reformers, then why would you engage in the same wrong behavior? :confused:

Not only that, but finding fault with the behavior of individuals is one thing, and finding fault with the pure bride of Christ is quite another! To attack and tear at the Body because of the behavior of individual wrongdoers is like chewing off your own foot.
lonely1 said:
I believe the Roman Catholic faith is the right one (only one) but don’t believe non-Catholics are all bound for Hell… The Church does not teach that either… althogh it IS easier for a person to get to Heaven if catholic
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Thank God for that! Otherwise, us non-Romans would have no hope at all! 😉
 
justasking4 said:
If catholics want to attack Luther and the reformers as being evil men then its only fair to point out the sins of the catholic church to give us a balance… 👍
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That tranlation means you give as throwing away the baby and keeping the bath water.

family --what does it mean to you?

Do you run away from home because someone has done wrong or do you work through it.

If you have a family correlate what Luther did as being in a family.

I will curse my Father, mother, brothers, and sisters for what my my brother did is what you are saying?
 
heisenburg said:
roguejim,

With humble respect, I think you are missing a huge thing here…

None of your statements indicate that the church does not view Protestants as Christians of the Christian faith… You seem to be taking criticism of Protestantism as proof they are not ‘Christian’…

But you absolutely have to remember that if they are baptized in the Triune formate…

As far as the CATHOLIC CHURCH is concerned…

THEY ARE CATHOLIC

Please be careful not to let your zeal blind you to what the church is saying. As far as the church is concerned, you are approaching dangerous waters…

If you genuinely do not believe that Protestants have ‘faith’ then I propose we do what the bible says…

You and I take our disagreement to the Church…

Ask an Apologist is a great place to go for this… These are often run by chaplains…

IF they come back and say your understanding is mistaken, then you must submit to the church if you claim to be a faithful Catholic…

If you do not, then by your own definition, you do not have faith since you do not trust the church you seem to want to defend…

Please…

I reiterate…

As a catholic, take your concern to the Church…

Here is a link to Ask the Apologist

In Christ
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fr.domenico
Priest

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 551

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:
This question of Protestant “faith” is an important one, because it is part of the great rupture in the Church’s attitude to the heretics. As St. Thomas says, heretics do not have the virtue of Faith because the motive of their acceptance of doctrines is not the authority of God revealing but rather themselves. Only the Catholic Faith is the true Faith; only it is supernatural. Per se, the Protestants do not have this Faith. Objectively speaking, they do not profess the true Faith, but rather heresy, which is not supernatural obviously. Now it many be true that individual protestants are heretics only materially, but we cannot know who does or does not profess these heresies “in good faith” so to speak. All we can know is that Protestants profess heresy, and we must assume that they mean what they say when they profess these things. Pius XII in “Mystici Corporis” very clearly says that only those who profess the True Faith and who are in union with the Catholic hierarchy may be considered members of the Church. All others are encouraged to leave that state in which they may have no surety of salvation. Those are his words, not mine. Every Protestant traditionally, until Vatican II had to solemnly renounce the heresies which he or she professed and make a profession of Faith according to the Tridentine-Vatican I Profession of Faith which explicitely affirms all that the Protestants rejected. The Church never claimed to know who or who was not only a material heretic. Only God can know to what degree a person is or is not in invincible ignorance. But objectively speaking they had to renounce their heresy. The same is true for the Nestorians, Monophysites and all the other ancient heresies.

The Faith is not a matter of degrees but of “all or nothing”. There are not fundamental and non-fundamental dogmas (an idea condemned by Pius XI). All are equally accepted and for the same reason: because they are revealed and because the One Church proposes them to be believed. It is surely a thing from the devil to assume that Protestants are all in good faith and only material heretics. I was a Protestant myself. When I began to learn what the ancient Church taught, I felt myself virtually compelled to accept it. I firmly believe that God gives actual graces to Protestants to embrace the Faith when they start to be exposed to it. If Protestants do not put an obstacle to that grace, they will convert. It does them a great disservice to assume they are in a fine state and that they have a true Faith, etc. They certainly profess a false religion and per se, they do not have the virtue of Faith. If they do, it is despite the fact that they are Protestants, not because of it.

It is a very great heresy to say that the Protestants have the virtue of supernatural Faith, for Faith is a gift of God and He cannot infuse falsehood into the intellect of anyone. Their religion is not an instrument of salvatin, but in itself, an instrument of damnation. If they are saved it is because they never really adhered to their religion. And who of us can be sure which Protestant does or does not really adhere to their heresy?
Does Father Domenico’s explanation suffice? I note that it is in agreement with Aquinas, and consequently, my original contention.
 
guanophore;3476498]
Originally Posted by justasking4
If catholics want to attack Luther and the reformers as being evil men then its only fair to point out the sins of the catholic church to give us a balance…

guanophore
Have you ever considered that “balancing” blaming behavior is not the will of Christ? Did He not say that we should remove the log from our own eye? If you believe it is wrong to attack the reformers, then why would you engage in the same wrong behavior?
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Sometimes attacks against protestants must be answered as you susggest here— pointing out the log in the attackers eyes. If i was making these things up it would be right to accuse me of making a false witness but these are not false accusations but true facts.
Not only that, but finding fault with the behavior of individuals is one thing, and finding fault with the pure bride of Christ is quite another! To attack and tear at the Body because of the behavior of individual wrongdoers is like chewing off your own foot.
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The attacking is being done by you and other catholics who mock protestants for Sola Scriptura which is a direct atttack on the Scriptures themselves and imply and call some protestants bigots.
 
You know, I am really amused by the way that the OP came in, made his post, posted some other random quotes to ‘supposedly’ support his assertions (even though Catholics even disagree with him), then POOF he’s gone without a retort to the answers and issues raised in the wake…

Hmmmmmm :ehh: :whistle:
 
haisty said:
These are not my own words, but wrote by a very wise and learned Priest.
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[/This question of Protestant “faith” is an important one, because it is part of the great rupture in the Church’s attitude to the heretics. As St. Thomas says, heretics do not have the virtue of Faith because the motive of their acceptance of doctrines is not the authority of God revealing but rather themselves. Only the Catholic Faith is the true Faith; only it is supernatural. Per se, the Protestants do not have this Faith. Objectively speaking, they do not profess the true Faith, but rather heresy, which is not supernatural obviously. Now it many be true that individual protestants are heretics only materially, but we cannot know who does or does not profess these heresies “in good faith” so to speak. All we can know is that Protestants profess heresy, and we must assume that they mean what they say when they profess these things. Pius XII in “Mystici Corporis” very clearly says that only those who profess the True Faith and who are in union with the Catholic hierarchy may be considered members of the Church. All others are encouraged to leave that state in which they may have no surety of salvation. Those are his words, not mine. Every Protestant traditionally, until Vatican II had to solemnly renounce the heresies which he or she professed and make a profession of Faith according to the Tridentine-Vatican I Profession of Faith which explicitely affirms all that the Protestants rejected. The Church never claimed to know who or who was not only a material heretic. Only God can know to what degree a person is or is not in invincible ignorance. But objectively speaking they had to renounce their heresy. The same is true for the Nestorians, Monophysites and all the other ancient heresies.
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I have watched this thread with some interest. First I don’t really care whether any particular Catholic thinks I don’t have Faith. I know that I do and the only one whose opinion I care about is God.

That being said, I think this thread shows the remarkable advantage that the Catholic Church has in having an infallible authority and how its members are obediant to that authority.

Now, if Catholics could only agree about what that infallible authority says.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the following about non-Catholic Christians:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
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819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.
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vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

This seems to be pretty clear in what it says. But then maybe the Catechism is wrong and the Church is teaching error through it. Of course, that can’t be because the Church can’t err in matters of faith and morals and promulgating an inaccurate Catechism for the laity would certainly mean such an error had taken place.

Of course there are all those saints and popes who appear to say different things than the Catechism. Were they in error or has the Church changed its view? We know that can’t be the case because the Catholic Church doesn’t change doctrine.

So between the Catechism (and other recent statements and actions by popes and others) and the sayings of other popes and saints so bountifully quoted in this thread there must be some consistent truth being taught. The problem is that Catholics can’t seem to tell what that truth is.

The result we find, as demonstrated in this thread, is that Catholics can be seen indulging in what they so often condemn Protestants for doing: engaging in private interpretation and cherry-picking. If we don’t like what one document of the Church says, let’s say that it isn’t authoritative and infallible. They we can find other statements that are more to our liking and follow those.

If we don’t like what the current leadership says we don’t have to obey it as long as we can find something saying the contrary that we can agree with. We only have to accept and obey what the Church currently says if we happen to agree with it. If we don’t agree with it we can say it is wrong and do what we want.

So much for an infallible authority and so much for obediance.
 
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