Do Protestants know where we got the Bible?

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Matt Slick may think so, I won’t speak for him, but that isn’t the intent of sola scriptura. SS is the practice holding teachers and teachings accountable to scripture, and hermeunetics is the job of the Church, not Matt or me.

Jon
The intent is one thing: the practical consequences are something else. Its still the individual who has the final say on what any particular string of words means. These people only** THINK **theyre being faithful to Scripture. (We know that, anyway.) Scripture is at the mercy of these people. :eek:

Lets say Amos Hokum, a member of Coyote Gulch Bible Church, decides that he disagrees with his pastors interpretation of Scripture. He goes off and declares himself pastor of UPPER Coyote Gulch Bible Church. So, in his congregation, HE is the final authority. That`s the PRACTICAL consequence of belief in SS. 🤷
 
Most, protestant or Catholic, also have no idea that the gospels are NOT written by the person whose name appears there. the Gospel of Paul is not written my Paul. Matthew not written by Matthew, etc.
And you know this how? And where in scripture can I find the Gospel of Paul?
 
Collegeprof is a new member. Could we all perhaps give him/her the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was a typo?

Jon
 
In all the years I spent as a ‘Bible-believing’ Southern Baptist, I was never taught where we got the Bible – not in Sunday School, nor was it ever mentioned in any sermon. I guess I just thought the Bible fell out of heaven in the red letter edition. It never occurred to me to ask. “It came from God,” was all I knew.

Am I the exception? Are Protestants usually taught where we got the Bible? If not, why not? Or is the answer too obvious?
Jim, I have been a Southern Baptist 65 years and I never heard anything formally presented about the source of the Bible. The closest thing would be in special studies, usually held on Sunday night, where we would occasionally touch on church history. However, that would always be concerning events during and after the Reformation.

Most Protestants have no idea where we got the Bible, and I’m pretty sure most Catholics are just as ignorant. However, among those who have made a study of the history of the Bible I think you will find they are all pretty much in agreement concerning the church councils that gave us the canon. But Protestants, at least those of the evangelical stripe, don’t believe those were councils of the Catholic Church. They don’t believe the Catholic Church came into existence until much later. Most will have difficulty putting a date on this but their answers will invariably have something to do with the Edict of Milan and the great influx of pagans coming into the church. Of course they don’t realize the Edict of Milan was about 80 or 90 years before the councils that finalized the canon.

Others, especially those who have seminary training, will say that Leo I was the first pope and that the Catholic Church began with him. I know this position was taken by the late Herschel Hobbs, who was one of the foremost Bible scholars of the Southern Baptist Convention.
 
Jon, thank you for your responses to my concerns about Luther and the Bible. You’re a patient and kind man. I’ve read the Lutheran defense of Luther’s actions several times. This is from a Lutheran website:
sothl.com/2011/01/13/the-apocrypha-early-church-councils-and-martin-luther/

QUOTE

Luther (1480-1546)
During his lifetime, Luther translated the Bible into German. His translation did include the Apocrypha; so Luther did not reject the Apocrypha. What Luther did that was novel was his placement of the Apocrypha: he placed them between the two testaments. This tradition of placing the Apocrypha between the two testaments helped set in place two views of thought:


[Luther was the first to start this “tradition.”]

Positive: The Apocrypha was a secondary category of books within the Bible. This was nothing new, and may, in truth, have helped better understand the Apocrypha as deuterocanon and/or anagignoskomena.

[Deuterocanon was a word employed for the first time in the 16th century, which simply means ‘accepted later than other writings’. There are not “two canons” – all biblical writings were canonized at the same time, in the same councils, and affirmed by the reigning popes. There has never been a different canon. The NT has a “deuterocanon” also.]

Negative: By putting all the Apocrypha together instead of interspersing them as before, Luther helped set up a churchly culture that could later more-easily remove the Apocrypha altogether from the Bible. And this largely took place in the Bibles Protestant used in the 1800s (1900s for German Lutherans who were transitioning to English).

Luther’s most-famous quotation about the Apocrypha comes from his preface to the Apocrypha in his German translation of the Bible
:** “These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.”**
END QUOTE (emphasis mine)

Luther took the writings from their rightful places among the Scriptures, where they had been for centuries, and put them in an appendix betweeen the OT and the NT in his German translation of the Bible (1534). He left the pages unnumbered so it would be clear to readers that these writings were not Scripture. He also wrote prefaces for these books. His summary statement is indicated above in red.

Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. Writings that are “not held equal to the Scriptures” are not the inspired Word of God. To me, it couldn’t be clearer. Writings that are “useful and good to read” are not essential and not Scripture. Luther declared it so.

I have never said Luther removed these so-called “apocryphal” writings from the Bible. I do say he removed them from the canon. The KJV also placed them in an appendix in imitation of Luther. The books were removed completely from the Protestant Bible in 1827 by the British and Foreign Bible Society. There were no complaints from the Protestant world which, having been taught by Luther, didn’t consider them Scripture anyway.

Thanks for reading this.

Jim Dandy
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the link to this series of essays. One of the things I draw from the link is how the Lutheran Church uses the D-C’s in a way similar to that of the early Church fathers, and how the pastor re-establishes for Lutherans the great importance of them as part of scripture.
Is our view of them different than the post-Trent Catholic Church? Yes, to some degree, but it is also quite different than the total rejection of the D-C’s amongst our protestant siblings in Christ.
One thing is for sure, I can completely understand the Catholic view, post-Trent.

Jon
 
Jon, I’m referring here to Luther’s interpretation of Revelation, making the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the Antichrist. This is frequently slung at Catholics – mainly by Fundamentalists, of whom there are many. Most don’t know the source, but they use it nevertheless. As I’ve said, it was fed to me from infancy to young adulthood.
Some posters on this thread report the same experience. I don’t think it will ever die.

Many Catholics don’t know the source, either.

Jim Dandy
I understand, Jim. Let me respond, as a post-Vatican II Lutheran in this way. I reject totally the term “Whore of Babylon” when referencing the CC as it is inaccurate at best, and wholly polemical and hurtful at worst. I consider it a violation of my understanding of the 8th Commandment. I also find the use of the term anti-Christ when referencing the papacy to be, at best dated and inappropriate. Obviously, the Pope is not the end-times beast that the term anti-Christ is used for in today’s language. We as Lutherans can disagree with papal claims of universal jurisdiction, and even “Vicar of Christ” as heterodox without using such polemic and divisive language.
If the expressed goal between our communions, that being to foster common love and respect for each other as Christians and to seek unity, then this type of language must be removed from our ways of speaking about each other.

Jon
 
Goodness, don’t put such words in my mouth! I’m merely answering the OPs question in terms of the answers I have heard amongst a certain type of protestant. I certainly don’t AGREE with their (or Luther’s) reasoning. I’m just explaining what they they believe and how they justify / defend it.

I’m not aware of Luther ever being dogmatic about his NT book concerns the way he eventually got about his OT “cuts”. It’s one thing to have difficulties, quite another to stubbornly cling to them. I’m not sure you should equate Luther’s OT and NT issues.
I beg forgiveness for misunderstanding your post.

Re Luther and the NT. He employed the same procedure with Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation that he followed with the OT in his German translation of the Bible. He removed them from the place they had occupied for centuries, put them in an appendix at the end of the NT, left the pages unnumbered to indicate they were not (in his opinion) part of the Scriptures, and wrote prefaces explaining why (in his opinion) they were not equal to the other NT writings.

This link is a treasure trove of Luther’s writings. Here you’ll find the prefaces to his entire German translation of the Bible and many, many of his writings.

godrules.net/library/luther/NEW1luther_f8.htm

Jim Dandy
 
False.

The only thing that draws you closer to God is Truth. Heresy drives you away from God.
I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. Heresy can even bring you closer to God, especially if you analyze it and discover why it’s flawed in some way. Heresy can bring you to learn more about Truth if you let it; it makes you think about what you have understood as truth and you wind up appreciating and understanding it more.
 
I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. Heresy can even bring you closer to God, especially if you analyze it and discover why it’s flawed in some way. Heresy can bring you to learn more about Truth if you let it; it makes you think about what you have understood as truth and you wind up appreciating and understanding it more.
That doesn’t even make sense. Your statement is contradictory.

Heresy is heresy because it is false. It is not of God, it of man and imagination.

If you are brought closer to God by analyzing why the heresy is false, it is not the heresy, but Truth that is bringing you to God.

Heresy doesn’t teach you about Truth. It expresses false ideas. False ideas damage your spiritual life and relationship with God by either changing your relationship with God (through understanding) and/or confusing the individual. If spiritual death is more severe than physical death, then spiritual confusion (a sickness) is not something to be entertained.

To ‘entertain’ falsehoods, for whatever personal reasoning, is to invite confusion into your life.
 
From the Magisterium of the Church: the Church`s teaching authority, given to Peter and the other Apostles by Jesus, Himself, to preserve unity in Truth, rather than the reigning anarchy of 30,000+ denominations, all claiming to be right. 🤷

Sola Scriptura is a myth. The Bible isn`t the Final Authority: the Final Authority overarching Sola Scriptura is the (individual) person who interprets Scripture according to his own biases!
Just ask Matt Slick! 😦

Words on a page are inanimate. They`re brought to life by The Holy Spirit working through the Catholic Church.
So if the Magesterium contradicts the Bible the Magesterium takes precedence? If so, why do we need Scriptures? My particular denomination, Church of Christ/Christian Churches uses Scripture to make sure the teachings on Sunday are in accordance to the Word of God, that is the church teaching is subjest to Scripture, no the other way around.
 
So if the Magesterium contradicts the Bible the Magesterium takes precedence? If so, why do we need Scriptures? My particular denomination, Church of Christ/Christian Churches uses Scripture to make sure the teachings on Sunday are in accordance to the Word of God, that is the church teaching is subjest to Scripture, no the other way around.
The Magesterium cannot contradict the Bible, part of the Matt 16:18 “the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it”. Even if you don’t acknowledge the reference to Matt 16:18 as pertaining to the Catholic Church, the Magesterium does not teach in conflict with the Bible. Why would the Catholic Church contradict a book that it canonized under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
 
There are Protestants who are very familiar with the history of the Bible just as there are, I’m sure, some Catholics who probably are not as knowledgable about it. This past year I read Pelican’s Whose Bible Is It? who was a Protestant at the time he wrote the work (a later covert to EO if I’m not mistaken) and he showed a depth of knowledge on the matter. I especially enjoyed his discussion on the Hebrew Scriptures and their Greek translation, the Septuigint. There were areas I disagreed with his conclusion/argument but there is no denying that he presented a scholarly and knowledgable work.

God bless
 
There are Protestants who are very familiar with the history of the Bible just as there are, I’m sure, some Catholics who probably are not as knowledgable about it. This past year I read Pelican’s Whose Bible Is It? who was a Protestant at the time he wrote the work (a later covert to EO if I’m not mistaken) and he showed a depth of knowledge on the matter. I especially enjoyed his discussion on the Hebrew Scriptures and their Greek translation, the Septuigint. There were areas I disagreed with his conclusion/argument but there is no denying that he presented a scholarly and knowledgable work.

God bless
Pelikan was a Lutheran until late in his life, when as you say, he became Orthodox. The book you mention is from after his conversion.

His scholarship is massive: try his THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION: A HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE. You’ll have 5 volumes to choose from.

GKC
 
Pelikan was a Lutheran until late in his life, when as you say, he became Orthodox. The book you mention is from after his conversion.

His scholarship is massive: try his THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION: A HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE. You’ll have 5 volumes to choose from.

GKC
I did not know the work came after his conversion. I apologize. I also see my auto-spelling on my iPad “fixed” the spelling of his name for me in my post 😊 I hate that.

God bless
 
I did not know the work came after his conversion. I apologize. I also see my auto-spelling on my iPad “fixed” the spelling of his name for me in my post 😊 I hate that.

God bless
I figured you knew the name, since you had read the book.

GKC
 
Yes, I know where we got the Bible. Yet it was my own study of church history that taught me, not any teachings from my church.
 
In reality is seems that they don’t.Logically speaking they can’t explain how we are able to have the true word of God.
 
In reality is seems that they don’t.Logically speaking they can’t explain how we are able to have the true word of God.
Last time I checked, there was still a problem defining what the word of God is (i.e. written, revelation, oral teaching, etc.). Just another example of the “language barrier” between Catholics and protestants. Very sad really.
 
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