Do Protestants really follow the Bible alone?

[englishredrose]

Miss Rose,

It seems you took the liberty to insert yourself into a discussion between Porknpie (“PNP”) and Happy 88, so I think I’ll do the same.

First, the claim that anyone is “making God into a Political Subject” is nonsensical. The question PNP asked relates to the moral issue of contraception. Certainly you can identify the difference between a moral issue and a political issue, eh mate?

Secondly, if you “don’t have a clue” about the issue being discussed, then please save the empty chatter about how “interesting” your life is, and how miserable we Catholics are, for another discussion forum. If you truly desire that we find “peace and happiness” then you might oblige us by returning to the aforementioned “interesting life” and allow the rest of us to commiserate on CAF.

Thanks!

Actually I strongly object to how you have interpreted by what I meant I suddenly have an interesting life … At no time did I think anything about how you have interpreted it. Indeed at moment for me its been a private struggle and the topic of conversation really lead me to think my life is indeed suddenly more interesting - Than I Thought. Comparing it with myself only so kindly do not put words into my mouth what aren’t there please. I am really struggling at the moment and I really did mean it to my life alone and not comparing with anything else and was talking to the individual poster when refering to peace and happiness. and I really don’t have a clue about the pill and abortion etc and if you had seen I had joined in earlier in the discussion and if you knew me personally, then you know thats how I say things. I was simply emphasing I personally don’t want to look at faith in this way for myself. So I am sorry if you want to think am having a dig at Catholics then sorry but that is the last thing on the agenda and was simply just applying everything to me and I hope you are calm enough to see that, that actually may well be true but if you don’t want to accept that then there is nothing I can do about it but please do not put words in my mouth and actually one of the two posters had PM’d me. I wont say which one that is upto them but they had and what lead me to rejoin in to the discussion and is was purely flippant on me that I don’t have a clue and no wish to turn God into a Political Discussion. That is the whole truth which I hope you will accept

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually I strongly object to how you have interpreted by what I meant I suddenly have an interesting life … At no time did I think anything about how you have interpreted it. Indeed at moment for me its been a private struggle and the topic of conversation really lead me to think my life is indeed suddenly more interesting - Than I Thought. Comparing it with myself only so kindly do not put words into my mouth what aren’t there please. I am really struggling at the moment and I really did mean it to my life alone and not comparing with anything else and was talking to the individual poster when refering to peace and happiness. and I really don’t have a clue about the pill and abortion etc and if you had seen I had joined in earlier in the discussion and if you knew me personally, then you know thats how I say things. I was simply emphasing I personally don’t want to look at faith in this way for myself. So I am sorry if you want to think am having a dig at Catholics then sorry but that is the last thing on the agenda and was simply just applying everything to me and I hope you are calm enough to see that, that actually may well be true but if you don’t want to accept that then there is nothing I can do about it but please do not put words in my mouth and actually one of the two posters had PM’d me. I wont say which one that is upto them but they had and what lead me to rejoin in to the discussion and is was purely flippant on me that I don’t have a clue and no wish to turn God into a Political Discussion. That is the whole truth which I hope you will accept

English,

In this thread you pointed out the following to me…I am not sure which post…I believe that this dialogue started with post 126…and thereafter.

Sadly then why did you answer as you did because then you will know for a fact that protestants do not follow the Bible aloan and quote all that you did. Is misrepresentation of the faith just because you did not like it

You imposed a dissatisfaction and a judgement as to cause in my behavior. I believe that you mean well. I believe that since you are in England there are nuances of the language that differ due to the distance of the seas and the mother tongue unenculturated here.

I believe that perhaps your distraught feelings should be recognized as such and for that I ask forgiveness and beg clarification and understanding on your part for whatever is written on these threads.

My Father-in-Law was first generation Brit and spending time with him I realize and understand that there are nuances of speech and understanding evern though we speak the “same” language.

As an Anglican you have more in common with the OHCAC than the distant non-denominational although all these thoughts sprang from the same source. I cannot speak for Stew but for myself let me say that I shall endeavor to recognize that I am practicing the English that originated in your land.

Blessings…

 

[schwartzmann]

It’s a bit difficult to find truly “unbiased” sources for, well… anything… let alone the Bible. Everything has some degree of bias, as we humans are emotional creatures. But the criteria in selecting such materials is rather straightforward. The first thing you must consider is who is the author. Is the author a raging, “gay-hating”, hardliner authoritarian, an angry atheist or a professor with a doctorate and 30 years experience in middle eastern history and linguistics? Simply looking into the past reputability and veracity of the author(s) can help a lot. Secondly, you must consider the intent of the material. Did the author set off to “prove” that Catholicism, Protestantism or some other religion is correct/incorrect, or is the purpose of the material to explore and learn more about a topic? Third, does the material have ‘scholarly’ references and sources, or is it all “original research” and interpretation? These are the same things required when writing an essay or research paper in college.

I have found that some of the absolute best academic materials concerning the Bible and its history are actually written by respectable atheist and agnostic authors with formal education (e.g., doctorate/PhD) in middle eastern history and language. They don’t have a “doctrinal bone” to pick with any Christian sect or organization as they are not part of any. But for every such author there are 10,000 who hate Christianity and dedicate all their time and energy to slander and hate. It’s the handful of true academics from whom the true gold comes.

A lot of research/study is also performed by groups and organizations. Typically, you will find that the secular research groups which contain reputable scholars of all different faiths produce the best material. If you have Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and Agnostics all working in the group it greatly reduces the chance that any religious influence will find its way into the material… it’s sort of like a system of “checks and balances”, because each religious subgroup on the team acts as a “watchdog” against the others and their religious bias.

Really, it’s all about knowing the author(s) and checking their sources and facts! There is a plethora of great material out there concerning the history of the Bible, the middle east and its peoples and the languages they all used. There is a lot more garbage than gems (as with any topic), but a studious and scholarly approach in your own studies can help you sift through the garbage and find those gems. Though often times those gems may not be what you expect and want to find!

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s a bit difficult to find truly “unbiased” sources for, well… anything… let alone the Bible. Everything has some degree of bias, as we humans are emotional creatures. But the criteria in selecting such materials is rather straightforward. The first thing you must consider is who is the author. Is the author a raging, “gay-hating”, hardliner authoritarian, an angry atheist or a professor with a doctorate and 30 years experience in middle eastern history and linguistics? Simply looking into the past reputability and veracity of the author(s) can help a lot. Secondly, you must consider the intent of the material. Did the author set off to “prove” that Catholicism, Protestantism or some other religion is correct/incorrect, or is the purpose of the material to explore and learn more about a topic? Third, does the material have ‘scholarly’ references and sources, or is it all “original research” and interpretation? These are the same things required when writing an essay or research paper in college.

I have found that some of the absolute best academic materials concerning the Bible and its history are actually written by respectable atheist and agnostic authors with formal education (e.g., doctorate/PhD) in middle eastern history and language. They don’t have a “doctrinal bone” to pick with any Christian sect or organization as they are not part of any. But for every such author there are 10,000 who hate Christianity and dedicate all their time and energy to slander and hate. It’s the handful of true academics from whom the true gold comes.

A lot of research/study is also performed by groups and organizations. Typically, you will find that the secular research groups which contain reputable scholars of all different faiths produce the best material. If you have Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and Agnostics all working in the group it greatly reduces the chance that any religious influence will find its way into the material… it’s sort of like a system of “checks and balances”, because each religious subgroup on the team acts as a “watchdog” against the others and their religious bias.

Really, it’s all about knowing the author(s) and checking their sources and facts! There is a plethora of great material out there concerning the history of the Bible, the middle east and its peoples and the languages they all used. There is a lot more garbage than gems (as with any topic), but a studious and scholarly approach in your own studies can help you sift through the garbage and find those gems. Though often times those gems may not be what you expect and want to find!

Schwartz,

You wrote lots of words. I asked questions you did not answer. Please answer them with less words. I will make it easy.

When was the Canon of the New Testament confirmed and solidified as it is in the Bible you read.

When was the Canon of the Old Testament confirmed and solidifed as it is in the Bible you read.

Does your Bible have 66 book?

How do you know that Hebrews was written by Paul?

Just a few words to answer…Provide your unbiased resources so I can learn.

 

[happy_88]

Swhwartzman
Very good post! Yes this is the problem with religion,we generally look at opinions that we eagree with and only read literature that is in our specified genre. A good read to understand the early church is Josephus, as he did not really care about christian beliefs.
You are also right about churches being influenced by the culture of that time. It is easy to go back in time and see how culture influenced Catholic and Protestant beliefs.
Discernment stops when a person embraces a certain doctrine…like Darby. They can only read the bible in that light.
The problem is that the bible was not written to support a system of man, this includes preTrib,raptures,catholicism,orthodox,…etc,
That is why most people cling to something, even though in anothet case it is a contradiction.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, below is the 2nd reading from yesterdays mass. Ephesians 4:30. Some thing to remember when posting back and forth. We are all God’s beloved children. I don’t recall 4 readings at LCMS, what is the 4th compared to the Catholic Mass?

Brothers and sisters:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.
All bitterness, fury, anger, shouting, and reviling
must be removed from you, along with all malice.
And be kind to one another, compassionate,
forgiving one another as God has forgiven you in Christ.

So be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love,
as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us
as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.

Amen.

The four readings in a Lutheran mass are ususally an OT reading, The Introit, which is usually from Psalms with the Doxology, an Epistle reading, and a Gospel reading

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by happy 88
How is it that Protestants believe that communion is symbolic, and Catholics believe that is the actual body and blood of Jesus?
For me I have a hard time reading into the text that it is the literal body and blood of our Lord.
Just curious…

Speak for yourself and your own communion, please.

Jesus said, “This IS my body” and “This IS my blood”. I don’t know what else needs to be said to prove Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord.

Amen. But if someone wants more from this side of the Tiber,

Article X: Of the Lord’s Supper.

1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

From the Augsburg Confession

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

Swhwartzman
Very good post! Yes this is the problem with religion,we generally look at opinions that we eagree with and only read literature that is in our specified genre. A good read to understand the early church is Josephus, as he did not really care about christian beliefs.
You are also right about churches being influenced by the culture of that time. It is easy to go back in time and see how culture influenced Catholic and Protestant beliefs.
Discernment stops when a person embraces a certain doctrine…like Darby. They can only read the bible in that light.
**The problem is that the bible was not written to support a system of man, this includes preTrib,raptures,catholicism,orthodox,…etc,**That is why most people cling to something, even though in anothet case it is a contradiction.

Happy,

With this line of thinking then I can say it does not support the man made system of Messianic Judaism and you should admit that whatever system you cling to or believe, it is just a system of man. Where does that leave us?

 

[Porknpie]

The problem is that the bible was not written to support a system of man, this includes preTrib,raptures,catholicism,orthodox,…etc,.

Hi Happy,

To clarify your words above, I have a two part question … who canonized the 73 books of the bible in the late 4th century and why?

 

[happy_88]

Yes, that includes Messianic Judaism, my obsessive compulsive friend!

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, that includes Messianic Judaism, my obsessive compulsive friend!

Happy,

The problem is that the bible was not written to support a system of man, this includes preTrib,raptures,catholicism,orthodox,… .etc,
That is why most people cling to something, even though in anothet case it is a contradiction.

Then what you are saying is that Christ did not found a Church…a Church that the Bible says is the Pillar and foundation of Truth, A Church through which the manifold wisdom of God is known, A Church that you can take issues to to solve problems with another…take it to THE CHURCH…not a Church…THE Church…

I posted this in the thread “What is Non-denominational”, Post 175…

I ask you to understand that the notion of denomination is Protestant. Therefore when you speak of this unity and that unity or this and that you are speaking of Protestants. There is a thread somewhere here on the notion of “non-denominations” and non-denominations are Protestant, Oh, it is this one…

So as you read this ask yourself this.

Is it fair to say that those that believe in God believe that God is all powerful?

Is it fair to say that those that believe in God and are Christian believe that the Universe was created by and for the Son who is also God?

Is it fair to say that those that believe in God and are Christian believe tha the Son came to Earth became man and sent the Spirit as another paraclete?

Is is fair to say that those that follow Christ believe that the Bible is the word of God?

If the Bible is the word of God and God is all poweful and God cannot lie…then when you read your Bible rethink what you wrote while contemplating this…

Jesus said “I will build my Church”…did He lie?

Paul says that the Church is the Bride of Christ? Was Paul whacko?

Jesus said that from the beginning concerning Divorce it was Adam and Eve…divorce is not allowed…do you believe that?

Paul says in Romans that the Old Covenant is like a dead spouse so that the people of God can join with Christ as a new spouse. Was Paul looney?

So if Christ is the head of the Church, and Christ is God/man, and if God is all powerful and said he would build a Church through which the manifold wisdom of God is known, to be the pillar and foundation of truth and the Church is the Bride and Jesus said that union is forever and no divorce…

If God created the heavens and the Earth as we believe …do you want me to believe that the Bride of Christ went astray?..do you want me to believe that the Bride of Christ was dissolved? Do you want me to believe that the Bride of Christ was divorced or died?

If God can keep the heavens and the Earth in play…then are you questioning the ability of Christ as the head of the Church to keep His Church together or did He lie when He said He would build His Church…

If He built it, it was as if it was a new heaven and Earth…and when you look in the sky and see the stars…you believe that they are there because God created and maintained them… Do you want me to believe that creation conquered Christ? Do you imagine that He can build and keep His Church?

I do imagine that it is so.

Happy, to this I would add that the Bible is part of the Manifold Wisdom of God, for it was written by and for That Same Church.

Yes, I am Obsessive Compulsive, would you want a Physician to be any other way?

 

[Hille]

Hille,

Does this mean that Phineas is coming back to the discussion?

Enlighten me Coptic, is this the Phineas of psalm 106:30 of which you talk?

 

[CopticChristian]

Enlighten me Coptic, is this the Phineas of psalm 106:30 of which you talk?

Hillie,

Thank you for asking for enlightenment. I am not sure that I have much enlightening to offer. You would imagine that someone with enlightenment might be ablet offer such as you ask…however, the answer to that would be no,

30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.

Phineas spelled his name differently and if my memory serves me correctly, this Psalm was written well beyond what we would consider life expectancy for the time it was written…however I do believe in miracles.

PS, I go to Church on Saturday as do others if you look back on this thread.

 

[schwartzmann]

You wrote lots of words. I asked questions you did not answer. Please answer them with less words. I will make it easy.

Sorry, wasn’t aware there was a character limit! lol

When was the Canon of the New Testament confirmed and solidified as it is in the Bible you read.

When was the Canon of the Old Testament confirmed and solidifed as it is in the Bible you read.

Does your Bible have 66 book?

I have a couple different Bibles. I’m currently in the process of revising my own beliefs (again)… a touchy subject… You see, I’m doing (or at least trying to) my own investigation into the Bible… which books are authentic, which were tampered with, which were written by untrustworthy authors, etc… This is a subject that requires a lot more time to discuss than I have right now at 11pm on a Wednesday night. But, in short, I am no longer willing to just accept what other people tell me or blindly accept the choices of Biblical material made by religious authorities in ages past.

You might call me crazy for this… and indeed, I would have called myself crazy for this years ago. Until I found the ways in which much of the Bible was compiled and “canonized”. For instance, do you know why there are four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) and not more or less? For this we owe our thanks to St. Irenaeus, who made this decision for us… He decided that since there are four winds, four seasons, four directions, four sides of the cross, etc that there must then be four Gospels…

Now don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying that invalidates the four Gospels, but hopefully you get my point: the people who decided what texts should and should not pass before the eyes of the faithful were not always of sound judgement and reasoning, and a lot of things were tampered with, hidden from us and made up.

How do you know that Hebrews was written by Paul?

I don’t… no one does…

Just a few words to answer…Provide your unbiased resources so I can learn.

Sorry, but I’ll have to answer with as many words as I deem fit to give you a thoughtful and well-written response… or not at all. Anyways…

There are literally thousands upon *thousands *of good resources for studying the history of the Bible, the middle east and the cultures/peoples. So you’ll have to be more specific about what exactly you want. Otherwise I can give you nothing more than some useless bibliographical list of random sources and topics… from how ancient Israelis baked bread to Biblical weapons and warfare…

However, I don’t feel like your above request for materials “…] so I can learn” is genuine. It seems more like sarcasm, to disparage either me, personally, or my post (or both). Which I am not sure. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but your whole post seemed to be geared in that direction and to “test” me, rather than a true attempt to seek answers or learn anything. If that is indeed the case you will find that I will not continue to return fire, and sink into a personal flame war, but that our correspondence will be short lived… and that is not at all what I want to happen!

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry, wasn’t aware there was a character limit! lol

I have a couple different Bibles. I’m currently in the process of revising my own beliefs (again)… a touchy subject… You see, I’m doing (or at least trying to) my own investigation into the Bible… which books are authentic, which were tampered with, which were written by untrustworthy authors, etc… This is a subject that requires a lot more time to discuss than I have right now at 11pm on a Wednesday night. But, in short, I am no longer willing to just accept what other people tell me or blindly accept the choices of Biblical material made by religious authorities in ages past.

You might call me crazy for this… and indeed, I would have called myself crazy for this years ago. Until I found the ways in which much of the Bible was compiled and “canonized”. For instance, do you know why there are four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) and not more or less? For this we owe our thanks to St. Irenaeus, who made this decision for us… He decided that since there are four winds, four seasons, four directions, four sides of the cross, etc that there must then be four Gospels…

Now don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying that invalidates the four Gospels, but hopefully you get my point: the people who decided what texts should and should not pass before the eyes of the faithful were not always of sound judgement and reasoning, and a lot of things were tampered with, hidden from us and made up.

I don’t… no one does…

Sorry, but I’ll have to answer with as many words as I deem fit to give you a thoughtful and well-written response… or not at all. Anyways…

There are literally thousands upon *thousands *of good resources for studying the history of the Bible, the middle east and the cultures/peoples. So you’ll have to be more specific about what exactly you want. Otherwise I can give you nothing more than some useless bibliographical list of random sources and topics… from how ancient Israelis baked bread to Biblical weapons and warfare…

However, I don’t feel like your above request for materials “…] so I can learn” is genuine. It seems more like sarcasm, to disparage either me, personally, or my post (or both). Which I am not sure. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but your whole post seemed to be geared in that direction and to “test” me, rather than a true attempt to seek answers or learn anything. If that is indeed the case you will find that I will not continue to return fire, and sink into a personal flame war, but that our correspondence will be short lived… and that is not at all what I want to happen!

Schwartzman,

This is Catholic Answer Forum. People come here looking for answers about Catholicism from Catholics. I am Catholic, You posted no question. You posted

It’s a bit difficult to find truly “unbiased” sources for, well… anything… let alone the Bible. Everything has some degree of bias, as we humans are emotional creatures. But the criteria in selecting such materials is rather straightforward. The first thing you must consider is who is the author. Is the author a raging, “gay-hating”, hardliner authoritarian, an angry atheist or a professor with a doctorate and 30 years experience in middle eastern history and linguistics? Simply looking into the past reputability and veracity of the author(s) can help a lot. Secondly, you must consider the intent of the material. Did the author set off to “prove” that Catholicism, Protestantism or some other religion is correct/incorrect, or is the purpose of the material to explore and learn more about a topic? Third, does the material have ‘scholarly’ references and sources, or is it all “original research” and interpretation? These are the same things required when writing an essay or research paper in college.

**I have found **that some of the absolute best academic materials concerning the Bible and its history are actually written by respectable atheist and agnostic authors with formal education (e.g., doctorate/PhD) in middle eastern history and language. They don’t have a “doctrinal bone” to pick with any Christian sect or organization as they are not part of any. But for every such author there are 10,000 who hate Christianity and dedicate all their time and energy to slander and hate. It’s the handful of true academics from whom the true gold comes.

**A lot of research/study is also performed **by groups and organizations. Typically, you will find that the secular research groups which contain reputable scholars of all different faiths produce the best material. If you have Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and Agnostics all working in the group it greatly reduces the chance that any religious influence will find its way into the material… it’s sort of like a system of “checks and balances”, because each religious subgroup on the team acts as a “watchdog” against the others and their religious bias.

**Really, it’s all about knowing the author(s) and checking their sources and facts! **There is a plethora of great material out there concerning the history of the Bible, the middle east and its peoples and the languages they all used. There is a lot more garbage than gems (as with any topic), but a studious and scholarly approach in your own studies can help you sift through the garbage and find those gems. Though often times those gems may not be what you expect and want to find!

You asked no questions. You poised yourself in a teaching mode offering what you have found by outlining it first, second, third and then pointed out what you have found and concluded what is important to learn.

Are you asking questions on this Catholic Answer Forum or are you posing to teach? If you pose to teach I said I want to learn. I asked you to teach me. If you asked me a question then I would teach you. Understand though that I am just a simple, regular Catholic, one of those guys that reads the Bible now and again, and goes to mass regularly and have not done the extensive research that you have done.

Do you have a question on this Catholic Answer forum?..If I cannot answer it there are many pretty bright people here and not all of them are Catholic. Radical is a Mennonite and I would not dare express the amount of knowledge he has in the Early Church Fathers. I don’t agree with him but I have learned from him. Contarini is Episcopalian and a historian. I have learned from him. John, NC is a Lutheran and I have nothing but admiration for him. I have learned from him. Then there are all these Catholics like PrMerger, Elizabeth, Nicea, Stew, not to mention the Orthodox that drop in from time to time. They know lots.

So if you have a question please pose it. If you want to teach then teach, however this is a Catholic Answer Forum.

Understand that if you pose to teach then students ask questions. Some of those questions will be asking you to clarify your position and some questions may be in the form of proving your position. Is that what you want to do? I do ask lots of questions as a good student. You will be proud of me if you choose to teach me. I ask good questions and I always ask for clarification.

Be careful as you teach though…there is this guy named Guanaphore…he drops in from time to time and corrects errors in teaching…but please proceed to teach or maybe you may want to ask a question.

 

[happy_88]

Schwartzmann,

Your radar is very accurate! The poster uses the same tactics as Richard Dawkins. If you give him an answer he does not agree with,he will either tell you and everyone that you obviously know nothing about the subject, put words in your mouth…and if you answer something and he has no answer, then the accusations of teaching are levied.
I would be very careful of your research though, once an idea is planted it can be hard to “let go” of this…our egos can get in the way.
There is so much info out there, but a lot of info is terribly levied against Jesus and Christians. I have been on some websites and my heart sinks…until I look deeper.
One program on discovery is called “decoding the ancients” the name is neutral but in reality should be called “debunking Christ”
I researched the cast and the host is a radical Zionist, as with his cast, and his main theologian is a Lubavitcher. So all the pieces fit nicely together.
We did huge research into the Book of Daniel once and came out with a great interpretation of the weeks, that had the dates going right up to Jesus’s death…we spent months on it and one participator shot himself and all of our collective work down in a couple of words. He mentioned that if it was that easy, why did the Apostles not draw from this in the New Testament, as they and Jesus refered to the OT to back His claims!
It is like a person who invents something…even though it sucks they will cling to the idea for dear life.
So be very careful,you sound like you are disenfranchised about Christianity…this has led to many problems and outcomes in the past

 

[Porknpie]

There are literally thousands upon *thousands *of good resources for studying the history of the Bible, the middle east and the cultures/peoples. So you’ll have to be more specific about what exactly you want. Otherwise I can give you nothing more than some useless bibliographical list of random sources and topics… from how ancient Israelis baked bread to Biblical weapons and warfare…

However, I don’t feel like your above request for materials “…] so I can learn” is genuine. It seems more like sarcasm, to disparage either me, personally, or my post (or both). Which I am not sure. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but your whole post seemed to be geared in that direction and to “test” me, rather than a true attempt to seek answers or learn anything. If that is indeed the case you will find that I will not continue to return fire, and sink into a personal flame war, but that our correspondence will be short lived… and that is not at all what I want to happen!

Schwartzmann -

My sense is that Coptic is sincere in his asking for what are some of the materials you are referencing. Saying that you read literature and have arrived at conclusions without any specific references does no one, Catholic or otherwise any favors and prevents a discussion. He is well catechised so you will get a response that is accurate to the teachings of the Church. Hopefully, this is why you are posting on this website. I’ll throw out a few books that I’ve recently read and can recommend.

• Is the New Testament Reliable? (Paul Barnett)
• New Testament History (FF Bruce)
• The Bones of St Peter (John Walsh, reprinted in 2011)
• Sex and the Marraige Covenant (John Kippley)

All the books have been around but the price was right. You have to ignore that Barnett and Bruce believed Jesus had brothers and sisters (so Barnett and Bruce are not perfect). Other than that they are fine books that prove that the NT biblical events actually occurred. The Bones of St Peter gives the history to the Basilica and gives the account of how St Peters bones were buried and many other fascinating details. For example, there are ancient inscriptions around the tomb using the symbol of a “key”. Reason: the earliest Christians understood him to have the keys to the kingdom. How very Catholic of them. Here’s a small but not insignificant example of tradition at work. You can’t get this from reading the bible alone.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic, not each other.

 

[JustaServant]

Swhwartzman
Very good post! Yes this is the problem with religion,we generally look at opinions that we eagree with and only read literature that is in our specified genre. A good read to understand the early church is Josephus, as he did not really care about christian beliefs.

Where did Josephus speak of the early Church?

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry, wasn’t aware there was a character limit! lol

I have a couple different Bibles. I’m currently in the process of revising my own beliefs (again)… a touchy subject… You see, I’m doing (or at least trying to) my own investigation into the Bible… which books are authentic, which were tampered with, which were written by untrustworthy authors, etc… This is a subject that requires a lot more time to discuss than I have right now at 11pm on a Wednesday night. But, in short, I am no longer willing to just accept what other people tell me or blindly accept the choices of Biblical material made by religious authorities in ages past.

You might call me crazy for this… and indeed, I would have called myself crazy for this years ago. Until I found the ways in which much of the Bible was compiled and “canonized”. For instance, do you know why there are four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) and not more or less? For this we owe our thanks to St. Irenaeus, who made this decision for us… He decided that since there are four winds, four seasons, four directions, four sides of the cross, etc that there must then be four Gospels…

Now don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying that invalidates the four Gospels, but hopefully you get my point: the people who decided what texts should and should not pass before the eyes of the faithful were not always of sound judgement and reasoning, and a lot of things were tampered with, hidden from us and made up.

I don’t… no one does…

Sorry, but I’ll have to answer with as many words as I deem fit to give you a thoughtful and well-written response… or not at all. Anyways…

There are literally thousands upon *thousands *of good resources for studying the history of the Bible, the middle east and the cultures/peoples. So you’ll have to be more specific about what exactly you want. Otherwise I can give you nothing more than some useless bibliographical list of random sources and topics… from how ancient Israelis baked bread to Biblical weapons and warfare…

However, I don’t feel like your above request for materials “…] so I can learn” is genuine. It seems more like sarcasm, to disparage either me, personally, or my post (or both). Which I am not sure. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but your whole post seemed to be geared in that direction and to “test” me, rather than a true attempt to seek answers or learn anything. If that is indeed the case you will find that I will not continue to return fire, and sink into a personal flame war, but that our correspondence will be short lived…**. and that is not at all what I want to happen! **

Schwartz,

I have asked for simple questions to be answered and here is one that is relevant.

All thoughts emanate from the mind.

All intentions emanate from the mind and are a means by which we are caused to act by our will.

Desires are coupled with intentions that culminate in an act.

You state that there is something that you do not want to happen, based on what I said, I imagine that you had some thought as to what you intended and what you did want to happen. I know what you don’t want. I want to know what you do want.

Tell me what is it you want to happen so I may understand your intent in your actions in posting on a Catholic Answer Forum on a thread that says “Do Protestants really follow the Bible alone”…

You have declared based on your research that you don’t follow the Bible alone so therefore you are at least one honest Protestant. That is praiseworthy. What else do you want to happen concerning this topic?