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AgnosTheist
Guest
i was criticizing this point:
its pre-crucifixion. jesus never presented himself as the one god himself. jews never held the idea that they were murdering the god of abraham.
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I
inJESUS
Guest
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I am **the **resurrection and **the **life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live
Jesus did not say i am a resurrection example. He said I am THE resurrection and THE life.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Jesus did not say i am a way, a truth, a life. He is said He IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
a human cannot give the peace the world cannot give. Only God gives peace the world cannot give.
Luke 21:15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.
a human neither gives utterance no wisdom. Only God does.
these are but a small fraction. I did not even quote Jesus talking about Himself as Wisdom of God talked about herself in OT. Unless the wisdom of God is not God, then Jesus was saying He is God.
you always have to put in mind the Jewish audiance He was talking to. He cannot utter these words if He did not mean He is God because He would be a blasphemer. As a rabbi, He knew this pretty well.
Jesus did not say i am a resurrection example. He said I am THE resurrection and THE life.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Jesus did not say i am a way, a truth, a life. He is said He IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
a human cannot give the peace the world cannot give. Only God gives peace the world cannot give.
Luke 21:15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.
a human neither gives utterance no wisdom. Only God does.
these are but a small fraction. I did not even quote Jesus talking about Himself as Wisdom of God talked about herself in OT. Unless the wisdom of God is not God, then Jesus was saying He is God.
you always have to put in mind the Jewish audiance He was talking to. He cannot utter these words if He did not mean He is God because He would be a blasphemer. As a rabbi, He knew this pretty well.
W
whatistruth
Guest
“The Kingdom of the Lord is the Kingdom of David” ,“your Kingdom come,your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven”. The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same thing.
Ego Te Amo Universi!
I
inJESUS
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I
inJESUS
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how can a monotheist compete with God if He did not consider Himself God? how can a Jew, a rabbi, compete with God unless he is a nutcase? a Jew who competes with God is saying He is equal to God and can do whatever God can do; in this case, he is either a lunatic or thinks of himself as the same God since a Jew does not believe in 2 gods to begin with.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
You are entitled to your private, utterly uniformed opinions.
What I’m interested in about your commentary is why you bother to comment at all on these matters. You have nothing but contempt for all things religious, so what is your purpose in discussing things religious?
You pose supposed “contradictions” about particulars of Christian belief, and then apparently aren’t interested in how Christians explain them as not being contradictions at all.
I would have much more respect for you, as an inquirer into the truth of things, where I imagine you see yourself as a proponent of truth, if you would ask questions like: Why is Jesus simply saying “I AM” taken to mean that He is telling people He is God himself?
I actually agree with you that no Jew (or anyone else) would kill God in human form if he really believed that that were true, but that only means that they didn’t believe Him to be God, not that He wasn’t God.
If God wanted to give man the choice to kill God in human form, He would have to allow man the opportunity to disbelieve that this man who claimed to be God was not God, otherwise it wouldn’t be free choice (free will would be thwarted).
But, if you accept that Jesus is God, them, in fact, men killed God in human form, for being Godlike, and that is a horror that we take as a lesson in the depravity of man.
We’re interested in making ourselves known better to you, not in converting you to our religion, unless you’re ready to do so.
You don’t seem to be interested in accepting our gift, but only in converting us to your religion by simple negation of our beliefs.
…of course, you’re a great irritant, much like a good strong habanero sauce, which does make the meal nice and tastey…!
Though, overly peppered food will be tossed in the trash as inedible, of course.
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
i find such opinions an insult to human intelligence. like what person in their right mind would crucify somebody that they believe is god himself?
thats true.
for claiming to be equal with god.
scholars werent always around when he made his sermons. was there one when he said ‘i am’ and ‘son of god’?
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AgnosTheist
Guest
i dont think jesus was a nutcase. for that matter i dont think he actually competed with god. But what jesus was, was a man of metaphor. he loved speaking in riddles, and it mattered little to him whether or not the crowd understood the underlying messages of his lessons. and jesus got killed partly because some of his messages gave an offensive impression to some jews. they thought he was making himself equal to god. it was all misunderstandings.
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inJESUS
Guest
what is an insult to intelligence, actually, is claiming that Jews who wanted Him dead knew He is God. None of us claimed this. Jews did not know He is the Messiah, this does not mean He is not. Jews did not believe He is God, this does not mean He is not. And if we apply your logic, then Jews who believed He is the Messiah mean that He is the Messiah, and Jews who believed He is God means He is God. Why would you accept the first and reject the others if it’s the same logic you are using?
does it mean He is not the Messiah only because some Jews did not believe so?
so you are agreeing that He claimed to be equal to God. A Jew knows he is not, cannot, and will not be equal to God unless he believes to be God. A Jew does not believe in many gods so a Jew cannot claim to be another competent god. He is either claiming to be the One God or he is a polytheist.
When Jesus is asked by the High Priest, “Are you the Christ , the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus plainly answered, “I am.” (Mark 14:61-62)
the Pharisees complained to Jesus because His hungry disciples had plucked ears of corn on the Sabbath, He said: “I tell you, something greater than the Temple is here…For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” Matthew 12:8
“The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast is those days.” This was a particularly inflammatory remark, because in the Old Testament, God was the Bridegroom of Israel.
in John 56 Jesus tells the pharisee, “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad,” to which they replied, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” the Jews immediately took up stones to kill Him.
Referring to their plans to kill Him, He compared them to tenants of a vineyard who wanted to kill the owner’s son, in order to steal his inheritance (Matthew 21:38). Finally He declared that He was the Son of God, knowing the consequences.
This was too much for the Pharisees to bear. How could this man be the Son of God, a man who broke their Sabbath laws and ate with sinners? To their minds it was inconceivable.
“This is blasphemy!” they said.
I remember these so far.
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inJESUS
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A
AgnosTheist
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parables are a kind of metaphor. most of his parables were easy to understand. but jesus wasnt the type who likes explaining himself out of a situation. if the audience does not understand his points, he leaves them at that.
when you are that famous, all you need is one fatal mistake to come crashing down. like the beatles. “we are more famous than jesus!”.all Jesus’ words seem to have been a slip of the tongue then.How many misunderstandings can there be?And what a coincidence that most of His utterances were misunderstood as if, as a rabbi talking to pharisees, He did not know how to express Himself
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AgnosTheist
Guest
manualman did.
i agree.
that wasnt my logic. my maint point is that we humans arent so low that we would kill god if he places himself under our mercy.
i think jews saw jesus as the polytheist kind.
Z
zerocrossing
Guest
A matter of opinion that “Before Abraham was I AM” = Jesus claiming to be God?
I AM is the term God used to reveal Himself to Moses. That’s not an opinion. That’s in Exodus. If Jesus claims to be “I AM” - and claims to be before Abraham - then He’s saying “I AM God.” The Jesus presented in John’s Gospel is claiming to be the God who revealed Himself to Moses, using the same language by which He revealed Himself to Moses.
As I mentioned earlier, you can take issue with the text all you want. You can choose to believe that the Gospel is mistaken, that Jesus never said these things, that the text is corrupt or whatever you want to believe about the text in order to get away from having to believe that Jesus REALLY claimed to be God.
But the express purpose of John’s Gospel is clear from the first chapter. The Gospel starts: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. Later in the prologue, this preexistent Word (Logos) previously defined as God, is identified as Jesus.
The first chapter, then, indicates that the Gospel of John is going to argue that Jesus is God. Consequently, when the Gospel indicates in Chapter 8 that Jesus claimed to be the “I AM” who preexisted Moses, it is hardly a “matter of opinion” to say that the Gospel of John has Jesus proclaiming Himself God.
Intellectual honesty demands that you acknowledge at least that the TEXT claims that Jesus claimed to be God. Like I said, you still have plenty of wiggle room, if you so choose, with regard to believing that the text is true. But the text says what it says.
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inJESUS
Guest
parables are a kind of metaphor. most of his parables were easy to understand. but jesus wasnt the type who likes explaining himself out of a situation. if the audience does not understand his points, he leaves them at that.
in other words, Jesus gave wrong impressions because of His difficult parables. Do i get your reasoning right?
when you are that famous, all you need is one fatal mistake to come crashing down. like the beatles. “we are more famous than jesus!”.
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
Yes its a matter of opinion because it didnt say in the bible that the Jews interpreted his words that way. Nobody called Jesus ‘God’, not even the apostles. (the idea that jesus is god only came around after the crucifixion, not before)
thats hardly any different from some jewish explanations that since God’s breath is in us then God is a part of us.
believe it or not I’m being as honest as I could. I have nothing to lose by agreeing or disagreeing with you. I have no agenda. All that really matters for me here is whether or not the Jews saw jesus as claiming to be the God of their forefathers. If anything the only evidence I see is that Jews are seeing jesus as a demigod (being the son of god).
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AgnosTheist
Guest
err, not quite. most of his parables were easy to understand. but some of his lessons are difficult to understand.
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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I
inJESUS
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no explanations here. The Word IS God.
I
inJESUS
Guest
yes and what does this have to do with Him saying He is God? your argument about parables gives the impression that Jesus was misunderstood to be saying He is God because of His “difficult” lessons in the parables.
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