Do regular Catholics (like me) really commit so many mortal sins? Really?!
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ProVobis
Guest
Indeed. Sin can destroy our relationship with our neighbors as well as God.
And to perhaps better judge the gravity of our sins, maybe we should put ourselves in our neighbor’s shoes. How grave would it be if one were to steal your only bike or damage your reputation through gossip, for example? Would you be able to dismiss those actions easily as venial sins?
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pnewton
Guest
I do not think I would say that the Church has embraced this as I would that the Church allows this. It is in the same way, and for the same reasons, why there is no number, or no one particular, said to be in Hell. FYI - I also think sainthood is only for the select, or that perfect contrition is all that rare. The later in fact, is almost the only kind of contrition one finds in those who believe that once they are saved they are always saved. All sorrow for sin comes from the offense given to God, and none out of fear of Hell.
It is worth noting since I am in agreement with Cat that we are both converts. If one believes that one is assured of Heaven and lives out their Christianity, you do not get into the mindset of living everyday to avoid Hell, but rather to please God. Or when we fail, to return to pleasing God.
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steve_b
Guest
And who told you THAT ? Did you ask them for their source?
re; Mass, From the CCC (all emphasis mine)
**2042 **The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the Mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.
The second precept (“You shall confess your sins at least once a year”) ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism’s work of conversion and forgiveness. The third precept (“You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”) guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.
**2178 **This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.” #22 shows the consequences if one deliberately misses mass on Sunday or any holy day of obligation]
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
(grave, as in mortal sin)
2182 Participation in the communal celebration of the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church. The faithful give witness by this to their communion in faith and charity. Together they testify to God’s holiness and their hope of salvation. They strengthen one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
2183 “If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the Liturgy of the Word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.”
B:
“encourage” is NOT the whole answer. There’s an or else, a mortal consequence for one’s soul, that goes along with one deliberately missing mass on Sunday.
You’re a catechist. Teach what has been written for all to see and know, in the scriptures and Church teaching. Don’t treat this lightly. For your own soul and the ones you teach.
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steve_b
Guest
indeed
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Convert_in_99
Guest
I was surprised how peacefully this thread was going along, until that last post.
We are not fully equipped to judge our own souls, let alone others.
I think mortal sin is as difficult and complex as each individual’s personality and genetic makeup. No one really knows, not even close. It is between the soul and God.
We are not fully equipped to judge our own souls, let alone others.
I think mortal sin is as difficult and complex as each individual’s personality and genetic makeup. No one really knows, not even close. It is between the soul and God.
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Blessedwithfive
Guest
I was told by my pastor whom I do trust. He is a wise old man with more degrees in theology then I can count. Very respected. While I might personally believe it is a mortal sin, I teach what I am told to. I serve the church. Right now the church is very concerned with not loosing any more members. I was told telling people that missing Mass is a mortal sin might be off putting to people and they might not attend. We need to get them through the doors in order to teach them. I agree with that too, so I follow his advice.
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ProVobis
Guest
I believe a similar approach was taken back in the 60’s regarding abstinence from meat on Fridays. But as it turned out, Church attendance continued to decline anyway.
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Jeanne_S
Guest
I was told by my pastor whom I do trust. He is a wise old man with more degrees in theology then I can count. Very respected. While I might personally believe it is a mortal sin, I teach what I am told to. I serve the church. Right now the church is very concerned with not loosing any more members. I was told telling people that missing Mass is a mortal sin might be off putting to people and they might not attend. We need to get them through the doors in order to teach them. I agree with that too, so I follow his advice./
So the approach you are advised to use is bait and switch? Lure them in then lay the real truth on them?
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Jeanne_S
Guest
So your approach is “bait and switch”? Lure them in under the belief that they aren’t in a state of mortal sin,then lay it in them,once you get them through the door?
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mrajax
Guest
Speaking as an atheist and as someone who has been gone away for a long, long time from these forums (so hi all, I’m back!), I have to say that when a lot of older devotional books say that people commit too many mortal sins, they’re exaggerating and I mean deliberately exaggerating.
Feelings of envy, jealousy, outbursts of anger, sexual impulses like masturbation or ‘wet dreams’ should not be constituted as mortal sins as they aren’t done out of malice or because you’re evil. A lot of older books and priests said the mere thought of these acts is evil was because frankly, they tried to control you. I’m sorry but in my country, that’s the way it was for a long time.
I don’t think the christian God if he is so reasonable would condemn you to an eternity of hell for getting angry at your father if he got you angry or if you had a stressful day. Nor wuld he condemn you for you know, masturbating in bed or getting lustful thoughts when seeing a beautiful woman/man. What type of God is constantly looking at you, waiting to see slip, constantly being angry at you for no reason other than that you’re a potential sinner. Cat is right, mortal sins are rare. These aren’t even venial sins, just parts of the human condition.
Feelings of envy, jealousy, outbursts of anger, sexual impulses like masturbation or ‘wet dreams’ should not be constituted as mortal sins as they aren’t done out of malice or because you’re evil. A lot of older books and priests said the mere thought of these acts is evil was because frankly, they tried to control you. I’m sorry but in my country, that’s the way it was for a long time.
I don’t think the christian God if he is so reasonable would condemn you to an eternity of hell for getting angry at your father if he got you angry or if you had a stressful day. Nor wuld he condemn you for you know, masturbating in bed or getting lustful thoughts when seeing a beautiful woman/man. What type of God is constantly looking at you, waiting to see slip, constantly being angry at you for no reason other than that you’re a potential sinner. Cat is right, mortal sins are rare. These aren’t even venial sins, just parts of the human condition.
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Blessedwithfive
Guest
That is exactly what we are doing! You can’t teach if you don’t have people come.So your approach is “bait and switch”? Lure them in under the belief that they aren’t in a state of mortal sin,then lay it in them,once you get them through the door?
I really want everyone to know about Christ, so whatever it takes…
Seriously we are trying to be merciful and really trying to meet people where they are and hopefully they will see the truth, just a little at a time. It worked for me
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Vico
Guest
The Catholic church teaches that it is willful and gravely sinful acts by which we condemn ourselves. Passions that we do not have controls over are not willful, but we do need to try to control them. Unintentional ignorance mitigates culpability but does not eliminate culpability for what is known to be sinful through the conscience, even for atheists.
Jesus Christ warns us that we should not sin lest we be condemned.
Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: 44 Where there worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Matthew 5:
27You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. 28But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
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Jeanne_S
Guest
There is a beautiful ministry call "Catholics Come Home"it was started by a fallen away Catholic. They now have a program on EWTN,the commercials alone bring tears to my eyes.They are so moving. I was a lazy Catholic for nearly thirty years.What brought me back was attending a Lutheran Curch for about five years,my husband was Lutheran at that time.I kept convincing myself there wan’t much difference between the two faiths.However,I finally realized what was missing was the Eucharist! I decided to return to my Catholic faith,my husband decided to convert.As his sponsor inRCIA,I learned and gained an understanding of my faith that I hadn’t had previously.That is exactly what we are doing! You can’t teach if you don’t have people come.
I really want everyone to know about Christ, so whatever it takes…
Seriously we are trying to be merciful and really trying to meet people where they are and hopefully they will see the truth, just a little at a time. It worked for me
That was nine years ago.I have been on fire for my faith ever since…
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Usige
Guest
For what it’s worth, I am a convert also. I do not live my life out of fear of avoiding Hell. I strive to live my life pleasing God. Part of pleasing God is not to willfully commit gravely sinful acts. My kids don’t seek to please me from fear of losing my love, but rather in not wanting to disappoint me. When people say that it is okay to use contraception out of fear it simply make me sad.
I would agree we should please God, but the impression I get is that even if one commits a grave act while knowing full well the Church’s teaching that it then still doesn’t meet the 3 criteria in some people’s eyes. In many ways it seems that many have added a fourth criteria. Namely:
*]Grave matter
*]Full knowledge
*]Free will
*]Intent to seperate ourself from God
If the fourth requirement is truly a necessity, then it raises the question of why certain acts are considered gravely sinful. Would it not be simpler to state mortal sin is only a deliberate intent to reject God and all other acts are merely venial sin? What is the purpose of noting grave sins if intent to destroy our relationship with God is truly the only criteria?
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steve_b
Guest
How does that answer all the quotes I gave in my previous post #66 ? What you’re saying is, your pastor with all his degrees, is denying what the Church teaches on this matter and wants you to do the same.
B:
Ahhhh, you know it’s a mortal sin because you’ve been taught correctly. Therefore, all the evidence from Church docs that I posted, you already know as a catechist. Therefore you know what should be taught.
Here’s the problem, If you are told NOT to teach that truth and instead teach contradictory to that truth, then he is telling you to flat out lie to your students. If I was in your place, I would report him to the bishop asap.
I have degrees as well. But I will tell you this, no amount of degrees, gives one the right to go against Divine revelation. And it certainly doesn’t take earning degrees, to pick up the catechism and read it. Let’s say a student of yours asks you in class, questions on the paragraphs I quoted from the CCC in the previous post. You’re telling them what the pastor wants you to teach them but the Church says exactly the opposite. What are you going to say to that student? They point out to you that scripture and the CCC teach that deliberately missing mass on Sunday is a mortal sin… What are you going to say to them, then? .
you have the responsibility to teach truth. Your students have the right to hear the truth.
B:
Then follow what the Church teaches. NOT opinions that directly contradict what the Church teaches.
B:
The Church is concerned about saving souls. It sounds like people are fleeing your parish, because of bad teaching, and NOT fleeing the Church. The wise, don’t flee from right teaching. They fly to it. The wise flee from wrong teaching.
Here’s a quick little catechism lesson
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man’s heart inclines him toward the right,
but a fool’s heart toward the left.
B:
You don’t have permission to lie to people.
That in effect breaks both the 2 great commandments.
Mt 22:
*]“You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.38This is the greatest and the first commandment
*]The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
When you are told to lie to people as a catechist, That doesn’t show love for God or neighbor.
scripture is clear #22 and the CCC references that very passage from Hebrews 2178
Don’t find yourself in this position. Matthew 18:6
B:
You’ve been told to lie. That’s NOT okay. When people find out you’ve been lieing to them, what are they going to think THEN?
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Vico
Guest
Intent to separate ourself from God is a grave sin of malice.Actual advertence to the sinfulness of the act is not required, virtual advertence suffices. It is not necessary that the explicit intention to offend God and break His law be present, the full and free consent of the will to an evil act suffices.
newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm
One can sin mortally in more ways than named:
*]Grave matter (including something thought to be grave although not which is malice.)
*]Freely chosen (including willful negligence, feigned ignorance)
*]Knowledge of the sinful character (by conscience, Church teaching)
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JakeWI
Guest
It is easy to fall into traps where you could end up sinning, or a sin leads to a greater sin, etc. Ultimately, when I sin I do feel a disconnect and a certain sadness, which leads me down a path of continuous upset or distress/negativity.
In my 26 years of life, I haven’t gone to confession more than I have this past year. I think prior to my major return to the Church this past year (so much greater than the passive Catholic I was a majority of my life), I have attended confession maybe a handful of times. There was even a time I felt that God knew my sins, so why do it. In this past year, every time I have gone… I have felt this sense of calmness and clearness. My heart felt light. It really felt like everything was cleansed, even if it was as simple of a confession as me being less than God-like in my language or whatever.
My parents, they are both scared to go. Either from fear of telling another person about their sins, or that they have too much to say that it would take forever. I pray that someday they will have the courage to go and feel the way I get to feel. I know some aren’t to that point, and really it is individual to the person. I just know that the sacraments, all of them, are so beautiful in their own way in helping to bring heaven closer to us.
In my 26 years of life, I haven’t gone to confession more than I have this past year. I think prior to my major return to the Church this past year (so much greater than the passive Catholic I was a majority of my life), I have attended confession maybe a handful of times. There was even a time I felt that God knew my sins, so why do it. In this past year, every time I have gone… I have felt this sense of calmness and clearness. My heart felt light. It really felt like everything was cleansed, even if it was as simple of a confession as me being less than God-like in my language or whatever.
My parents, they are both scared to go. Either from fear of telling another person about their sins, or that they have too much to say that it would take forever. I pray that someday they will have the courage to go and feel the way I get to feel. I know some aren’t to that point, and really it is individual to the person. I just know that the sacraments, all of them, are so beautiful in their own way in helping to bring heaven closer to us.
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Usige
Guest
Vico, thank you for giving name to the sin of rejecting God and for the reference from the Catholic Encyclopedia stating that one is not required to transgress God’s law with malicious intent for an act to be mortally sinful.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
I think you summed it up nicely right here.
This is about as big an endorsement as I can find for taking advantage of the graces found in the Sacrament of Reconcilation.
It’s not about us judging for ourselves necessarily whether we’ve commited the ultimate crime of severing our relationship with Christ to the point of having had commited a mortal sin.
It’s about repairing our relationship with God regardless of our moral state. None are perfect. What better way to strive for holiness than to confess so we may grow closer to Christ.
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