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steve_b
Guest
Bravo Brendan…Bravo!.
Do regular Catholics (like me) really commit so many mortal sins? Really?!
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steve_b
Guest
Deliberately teaching contrary to what one knows is true, AND contrary to what the Church and scripture teaches, is
- NOT coming from a pure heart.
- NOT coming from love, trust and respect
- Is NOT approved by Jesus
- It’s coming from disobedience NOT obedience, from deception NOT truth,
C:
That needs qualification
Did you read what I posted earlier re: St Paul & JPII ? “it is not licit to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom 3:8)”
Let me add to that. Luke 14:26
So with what Jesus said there, let’s ask the question.
By deliberately going against Church teaching, as the pastor on this issue is doing, and the teacher he told to teach error as well, who are they serving? Are they serving Jesus 1st ?
As JPII writes “no evil done with a good intention can be excused…Their condemnation is just’ (Rom 3:8)”
C:Splendor of Truth by St JPII the Great? Give this to your pastor as well to read
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...p-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor.html#$3K
In it JPII says (beginning at paragraph 79)
***Intrinsic evil": it is not licit to do evil that good may come of it ***(cf. Rom 3:8)
no evil done with a good intention can be excused. ‘There are those who say: And why not do evil that good may come? Their condemnation is just’ (Rom 3:8)"
The HS does NOT guide anyone into error or to teach error. If one does that, they do that on their own. The HS is NOT the author of error.
And in extension
Jesus picked Judas and he became a traitor. We certainly do NOT blame the HS for what Judas became…correct? Judas made his own choices.
C:
The point of the shepherd analogy is for ALL shepherds (popes, bishops, priests, deacons) to follow the GOOD SHEPHERD. NOT intentionally do things opposed to what the Good Shepherd teaches, by Scripture, Tradition, and the teaching magesterium of His Church.
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steve_b
Guest
Re: 3 requirements
- grave matter
- knowing it is grave matter
- doing the act
- what becomes of the priest who knows truth and won’t teach it or teaches contrary to it?
- what becomes of the catechist who knows truth but the priest tells her NOT to teach it?
- what becomes of the congregation, and in extension students who are deliberately TAUGHT contrary to the truth?
Therefore, pleading innocent to ignorance in what we should know, is not so easy to plead these days. [1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791)
If I asked you a trivia question, tell me who played the lead role in the movie Ft Dobbs, how long would it take you to give me the answer? 25 seconds? I’ll bet less than a minute.
Catholics can also get answers to the Catholic faith just as quickly. The CCC is online, and it is free to access
C:
It’s not lack of comprehension, it’s being in Mortal sin and remaining in it. That causes all kinds of consequences .
Bottomline the faith is not hard to understand, it’s easy #66 . Obedience to faith otoh, THAT’S hard sometimes.
So
Taking those issues you present- homosexuality, [1 Corinthians 6:9](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+6:9&version=RSVCE) it’s the sexual activity not the orientation, that is the sin.
- divorce, Mark 10:11 , Mark 10:12 It’s divorce and remarriage that’s the issue. as a qualification, annulment if possible, shows a marriage didn’t take place in the first place
- drunkenness, Galatians 5:21
- birth control, catholic.com/search/content/birth%20control look that over
- attending Mass answered here #66
C:
And what planet did they fall from?
C:
Hence the phrase “through no fault of their own”
C:
then how would you respond to the following from John
1 John 5:16 , 1 John 5:17
John presumes we know what mortal sin is, and when someone else commits mortal sin as well.
Given our conversation so far, I’m not seeing the big mystery you’re seeing.
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Wampa
Guest
To me this thread illustrates why our insistence on talking about sins in term of “is x a mortal sin?” rather than “is x grave matter?” confuses rather than edifies.
Is missing Mass grave matter? Without a doubt, no argument. Whether or not it’s a mortal sin is a fact-dependent analysis based on consent, knowledge and facts of the situation.
A personal illustration: the only time I’ve missed Mass since becoming Catholic was when I was in Scandinavia with my wife’s family and minimal access to a Catholic church. On Sunday, our only Mass option was to drive a long way to another city, at the expense of my wife’s parents missing a good chunk of their time to meet with their relatives. We had about 6 hours to be with them that one day and this was likely the last time they would see each other before the elderly Norwegian relatives died, which indeed has happened since then.
That morning I argued that we should spend 3 of those 6 hours going to a distant Mass. After much debate, I decided that the importance and rarity of this reunion to my wife’s family was paramount and I relented to skipping Mass.
Was missing Mass that day grave matter? Absolutely. Was it a mortal sin? I don’t know. Were the wishes of her family important enough to remove my culpability for not insisting we go? Maybe, maybe not. I struggled with that decision a lot and refrained from partaking in the Eucharist until I had gone to confession once we got home.
As an aside, Usige, your posts are really insightful. I appreciate them
Is missing Mass grave matter? Without a doubt, no argument. Whether or not it’s a mortal sin is a fact-dependent analysis based on consent, knowledge and facts of the situation.
A personal illustration: the only time I’ve missed Mass since becoming Catholic was when I was in Scandinavia with my wife’s family and minimal access to a Catholic church. On Sunday, our only Mass option was to drive a long way to another city, at the expense of my wife’s parents missing a good chunk of their time to meet with their relatives. We had about 6 hours to be with them that one day and this was likely the last time they would see each other before the elderly Norwegian relatives died, which indeed has happened since then.
That morning I argued that we should spend 3 of those 6 hours going to a distant Mass. After much debate, I decided that the importance and rarity of this reunion to my wife’s family was paramount and I relented to skipping Mass.
Was missing Mass that day grave matter? Absolutely. Was it a mortal sin? I don’t know. Were the wishes of her family important enough to remove my culpability for not insisting we go? Maybe, maybe not. I struggled with that decision a lot and refrained from partaking in the Eucharist until I had gone to confession once we got home.
As an aside, Usige, your posts are really insightful. I appreciate them
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Just for future reference.When traveling and attending Mass would be a hardship mainly due to the distance involved,you can get absolution from your priest prior to your trip.To me this thread illustrates why our insistence on talking about sins in term of “is x a mortal sin?” rather than “is x grave matter?” confuses rather than edifies.
Is missing Mass grave matter? Without a doubt, no argument. Whether or not it’s a mortal sin is a fact-dependent analysis based on consent, knowledge and facts of the situation.
A personal illustration: the only time I’ve missed Mass since becoming Catholic was when I was in Scandinavia with my wife’s family and minimal access to a Catholic church. On Sunday, our only Mass option was to drive a long way to another city, at the expense of my wife’s parents missing a good chunk of their time to meet with their relatives. We had about 6 hours to be with them that one day and this was likely the last time they would see each other before the elderly Norwegian relatives died, which indeed has happened since then.
That morning I argued that we should spend 3 of those 6 hours going to a distant Mass. After much debate, I decided that the importance and rarity of this reunion to my wife’s family was paramount and I relented to skipping Mass.
Was missing Mass that day grave matter? Absolutely. Was it a mortal sin? I don’t know. Were the wishes of her family important enough to remove my culpability for not insisting we go? Maybe, maybe not. I struggled with that decision a lot and refrained from partaking in the Eucharist until I had gone to confession once we got home.
As an aside, Usige, your posts are really insightful. I appreciate them
This happened to me a few years back,I missed Mass due to time and travel issues.In confession,the priest advised me to plan ahead and obtain an absolution prior to such a trip.
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Wampa
Guest
That is an excellent point! I will do that next time.
At the time, I thought we were going to be in large cities on Sundays and it wouldn’t be a problem and it seemed like I was right when we spent the first Sunday in Bavaria in Germany (very Catholic
). But then Norway was a completely different beast 
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Actually the correct term is dispensation.I didn’t think absolution was the right word,but couldn’t think of the other at the time!That is an excellent point! I will do that next time.
At the time, I thought we were going to be in large cities on Sundays and it wouldn’t be a problem and it seemed like I was right when we spent the first Sunday in Bavaria in Germany (very Catholic
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steve_b
Guest
how so?
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Usige
Guest
Thanks. I guess there’s a first time for everything; I generally think I’m just annoying people most the time.As an aside, Usige, your posts are really insightful. I appreciate them
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steve_b
Guest
mortal and grave are synonymous
thesaurus.com/browse/mortal
W:
The qualification that has been constantly referenced to is, one who intentionally misses mass. If it is out of one’s control then that’s a different story
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pnewton
Guest
Boy, is that every true. While I like the Catholic Encyclopedia, it is not the Church, though it is well documented. That is why I like the Catechism. We need full knowledge. The CE says it doesn’t have to be actual, but can be virtual. I can not get my head around this strange way of not really knowing something, but virtually knowing with full knowledge. You actually know something you don’t know. However, I note the CE is not absolute on the matter. It still says that one must freely will an evil act. I guess this is reconcilable with my position, though I still thing the CCC is clearer.
I think the best course is attend confession like every possible mortal sin is a subjective sin to us, and for others, assume the best and not sit in judgment over the long communion lines. For me, the narrow interpretation contradicts more foundational theology, that is, the character of God and salvation, as well as failing in my understanding of Sacred Scripture.
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steve_b
Guest
point 4 as you know isn’t in the discription of mortal sin. Seperating ourselves from God is the effect of mortal sin, even if it wasn’t the intent of the sinner.
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Wampa
Guest
Some readers of this thread will find this recent article quite insightful on the topic at hand.
How Parents are Stealing the Gift of the Mass from their Children
Synopsis: parish priest learns from kids’ confessions that their parents are indifferent to the importance of Holy Mass and, due to their parents’ example, the “kids’ consciences were slowly killed—and with it, any sense of sin and sorrow for it.”
How Parents are Stealing the Gift of the Mass from their Children
Synopsis: parish priest learns from kids’ confessions that their parents are indifferent to the importance of Holy Mass and, due to their parents’ example, the “kids’ consciences were slowly killed—and with it, any sense of sin and sorrow for it.”
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ProVobis
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About that article:
I know that’s not his main point but do these factors reduce the culpability?
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Wampa
Guest
It depends. My own opinion is not in most cases but I could see some scenarios where it makes sense (such as with kids).
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ProVobis
Guest
At least they knew enough to confess them, even though technically they didn’t have to if they had good reasons (which they probably weren’t aware of) not to attend.
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JimG
Guest
That article is an eye opener. It’s worth putting up with all the popup ads to read it! A quote toward the end which struck me: “Parents, do you know that you children cry in my confessional because you are not taking them to Mass?
Parents, do you know that your seventh-grade child has a killed conscience, the victim of indifference?” I was thinking that maybe parts of that article should be read from the pulpit on Sunday. Then I thought, but wait, the parents who need to hear it won’t be there! And neither will their kids.
What a tragedy.
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Brendan_64
Guest
An issue that we seem to have in the Church is that there are adults ‘of a certain age’ who seem to be of an opinion that Church teaching has changed over the past few decades regarding the sinfulness of missing Sunday Mass. I’m talking about active members of the parish, people who go to Mass on most Sundays, but who genuinely seem to think that it is no longer a mortal sin to miss Mass on the occasional Sunday. Apparently the view is that the Church is not so ‘rigid’ anymore as regarding adherence to ‘Church rules’ such as having to go to Mass every Sunday.
There is also the real issue that such people (being very active parish members) are catechising others. These are good, decent, well-meaning people, very active within parishes, and they genuinely believe this. You try to convince them otherwise and they smile and give you a sympathetic look, and you know they’re thinking, “You’re a nice man, but you’re stuck in the past, you haven’t moved on in your thinking”. It’s enough to make you want to hang your head and cry.
There is also the real issue that such people (being very active parish members) are catechising others. These are good, decent, well-meaning people, very active within parishes, and they genuinely believe this. You try to convince them otherwise and they smile and give you a sympathetic look, and you know they’re thinking, “You’re a nice man, but you’re stuck in the past, you haven’t moved on in your thinking”. It’s enough to make you want to hang your head and cry.
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JimG
Guest
Well, the emphasis seems to have changed somewhat, which was good in its intent but had some bad effects.
I was always taught about the 3 requirements for mortal sin—serious matter, knowing it’s serious, doing it anyway. But the main thrust of the teaching was “don’t commit this bad sin!” Now, the emphasis has morphed somewhat. “Yeah, it’s bad, but maybe you weren’t quite sure, maybe you didn’t fuly consent, etc.” In other words, now we leave room for more excuses, which often simply makes people—especially kids—more confused. They just want to know what’s right and what’s wrong. Instead they get confusion.
Another startling thing from the article I mentioned was that there wasn’t much difference between Catholic school kids and public school kids. The Catholic school kids said that they were going to Mass once a week. But it wasn’t the Sunday Mass—it was the school Mass held on a Tuesday! That doesn’t meet the Sunday obligation.
And when the priest asked them in confession why they missed Mass, they said it was because their parents didn’t take them. And sometimes they cried.
I was always taught about the 3 requirements for mortal sin—serious matter, knowing it’s serious, doing it anyway. But the main thrust of the teaching was “don’t commit this bad sin!” Now, the emphasis has morphed somewhat. “Yeah, it’s bad, but maybe you weren’t quite sure, maybe you didn’t fuly consent, etc.” In other words, now we leave room for more excuses, which often simply makes people—especially kids—more confused. They just want to know what’s right and what’s wrong. Instead they get confusion.
Another startling thing from the article I mentioned was that there wasn’t much difference between Catholic school kids and public school kids. The Catholic school kids said that they were going to Mass once a week. But it wasn’t the Sunday Mass—it was the school Mass held on a Tuesday! That doesn’t meet the Sunday obligation.
And when the priest asked them in confession why they missed Mass, they said it was because their parents didn’t take them. And sometimes they cried.
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Wampa
Guest
That may be true, but it’s not what I was talking about.
I wasn’t referring to the word ‘mortal’ versus the word ‘grave’, but rather ‘mortal sin’ (the overall test) versus ‘grave matter’ (the first prong of the test).
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