Do Religious People Really Believe in Their Religion?

[sinnerdexter]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

 

[kamaan]

:ehh: So, if someone truly believes in Catholicism, they will never sin? Looks like Catholicism has only had, what, one true believer?

I’m sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but this post is kind of offensive…

 

[fhansen]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

That’s an interesting perspective-and an interesting observation. In my understanding, Catholic teachings tells us that we’re all born atheists-exiled from God-and our turning back to Him, if at all, is a process. So that, a believer may be at any level, possessing the virtues of faith, hope, and charity to varying degrees depending on his stage of conversion, or “spiritual maturity”. God ”hides” Himself so that we must walk by faith rather than by sight, and this faith is drawn from us, until we’re perfected –and our faith, hope, and love are unfailing.

You have to understand that Adam & Eve’s sin was already a rebellion against God, reason, and their own selves-such is the human state. We’re not magically cured of this disposition overnight; this life is more than a test, it’s a place of molding, of formation, if we’re willing. It’s the Prodigals pigsty, if you will, where we can learn what Adam & Eve didn’t yet know: the “value” of God, or how much we need Him. Their experiment with sinning- doing what they should’ve known to be wrong -was no different from our own in that sense. Our “struggle with sin” as scripture calls it is a continuation of the mistrust of God that our first parents demonstrated-the notion that they might find more fulfillment and happiness outside His will.

 

[R_Daneel]

What a great post, sinnerdexter.

Obviously a devout believer could “sin” by mistake, not realizing that the act is “sinful” at the time it happens, but would never do it if he/she had time to contemplate the ramifications of the action. So a “true” believer would never commit a “mortal sin” - since a mortal sin requires full consent and knowledge of the seriousness of the action. As for the mourning of some minor inconvenience, like a debilitating and painful disease, or the departure of their loved ones, why should they care? The condition is never more than whatever they can endure, and the suffering would would bring them closer to God, if they offered it to Jesus, which is the logical thing to do. The death of the loved ones should be celebrated with joy, since their loved ones are now in heaven, away from this vale of tears.

The actual behavior is most foolish, as you pointed it out.

 

[Viki63]

As fhansen pointed out, our life is a journey. We are not born fully Catholic, complete with full knowledge of theology and how we should behave. We grow into it gradually, if we are fortunate; we learn about our faith, we struggle as adolescents with accepting the faith of our parents while asserting our own independence as separate individuals, we learn more about our faith. We may find ourselves in a protestant church, and have to find our way through the theological maze to the Catholic church (this happens frequently), and figure out the differences and the new expectations.
Meanwhile we have to mature as individuals. We don’t always know what to do or make the best choices, as our needs and desires get in the way. And we are human beings - if someone I love is hurt or dies, I will grieve, even if I know God’s will is perfect and that I will see that person in heaven. Nothing wrong with that – Jesus wept at Lazarus’ death – at the obscenity of death.
Besides, our faith is in things unseen, there’s always a shred of uncertainty for most, I would say. It is unfair to judge the reality of Catholicism by the behavior of Catholics - judge it by the behavior of Christ.

 

[fhansen]

What a great post, sinnerdexter.

As for the mourning of some minor inconvenience, like a debilitating and painful disease, or the departure of their loved ones, why should they care? The condition is never more than whatever they can endure, and the suffering would would bring them closer to God, if they offered it to Jesus, which is the logical thing to do. The death of the loved ones should be celebrated with joy, since their loved ones are now in heaven, away from this vale of tears.

The actual behavior is most foolish, as you pointed it out.

Pain is pain-why should it be physically any easier for believers? OTOH, knowing there’s a purpose for it all and eternal bliss in the end certainly makes it more bearable. Devout believers, like my mother, withstand the most debilitating diseases-ALS in her case- with dignity and faith to the end. And the death is a mixed blessing for a devout believer. On the one hand, your loved one is leaving, on the other hand they’re so much better off. Heck, I cried when my fiance left for Europe for an extended period, knowing I wouldn’t see her for a long time. It’s not at all foolish-just quite human.

 

[LilyM]

Human beings sin for the same reason they do other things that are harmful to them, be it in this life or the one to come.

They gorge on unhealthy food knowing that sooner rather than later their poor eating habits are going to catch up with them and affect their health.

They smoke. They drink way too much. They do other drugs. Also in the knowledge that these things are harmful.

They spend too much and incur too much debt again knowing that sooner rather than later it will catch up with them.

And they do other things that defy sense and logic. They buy lottery tickets knowing that the odds of winning are millions to one, bet on horses or sporting teams that have miniscule chances of winning, etc etc etc.

Humans are very bad for the most part at giving up short-term gains or rewards (such as the buzz of that chocolate hit or drink or the thrill of placing that bet) and focusing on long-term benefits (improved health or bank balance). This applies to spiritual benefits as much as material ones.

 

[R_Daneel]

Pain is pain-why should it be physically any easier for believers? OTOH, knowing there’s a purpose for it all and eternal bliss in the end certainly makes it more bearable. Devout believers, like my mother, withstand the most debilitating diseases-ALS in her case- with dignity and faith to the end. And the death is a mixed blessing for a devout believer. On the one hand, your loved one is leaving, on the other hand they’re so much better off. Heck, I cried when my fiance left for Europe for an extended period, knowing I wouldn’t see her for a long time. It’s not at all foolish-just quite human.

No doubt. It is human, but illogical. To be sure, no one can claim that they are always logical, all the time. Insofar you are correct.

But the other problem, the more serious one is the sinning part. To commit a “sin” cannot be just chalked up to being illogical. It is definitely dumb to knowingly commit an act which could render one to eternal damnation and deprive one of eternal bliss. As sinndexter observed, those people who knowingly commit a “mortal sin” do not really believe what they preach.

 

[awatkins69]

It’s a great question sinnerdexter and I’ve often thought of this question myself. I suppose it’s the fact that something may seem appealing to us at the time, and we don’t consciously consider what the eternal consequences are.

It’s kind of like when a person knows they should do their homework because ultimately they’re going to suffer dire consequences if they don’t, but they don’t seriously consider that and opt to play video games (or read philosophy) instead. However, I don’t think this entails that the person didn’t really believe that their not doing homework would have dire consequences.

“The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[colmcille1]

It’s a great question sinnerdexter and I’ve often thought of this question myself. I suppose it’s the fact that something may seem appealing to us at the time, and we don’t consciously consider what the eternal consequences are.

It’s kind of like when a person knows they should do their homework because ultimately they’re going to suffer dire consequences if they don’t, but they don’t seriously consider that and opt to play video games (or read philosophy) instead. However, I don’t think this entails that the person didn’t really believe that their not doing homework would have dire consequences.

“The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Hi awatkins,
I agree with your take on it here.
In fact, I would add that for others a selectively-informed conscience is their guide. I knew a woman from my old neighbourhood who said to me once that she was fine in God’s eyes as she had not killed anyone. That was it! No explanation why she thought that way (I did not question her further as she was quite an intimidating person.) So I presume that by her “reasoning”, beyond killing, she had carte blanche to do just about what she pleased.

Ironically, our brief “conversation” has stayed in my mind as a reminder of the often fickle nature of belief.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There is more to our weaknesses than mere weakness.

Our weakness allows us to get greedy. Or to fall under the evil or sinful suggestion of others. Witness Adam’s falling under Eve’s prodding to take a bite of the forbidden fruit.

Each of us is weak in some way or other.

All the more reason to beg Jesus, the Judge, to overlook our many faults and failings and to forgive us our sins.

Just look at the “lame” words of St. Dismas, known to many as “The Good Thief”. Probably a sociopath, he had nothing to lose at that point, so he reprimanded “The Bad Thief” and said that Jesus had done nothing to merit execution although the pair of the thieves deserved what they were getting. And then Dismas turned to Jesus and simply said, “When you get to your kingdom, remember me.”

That was all it took.

“Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof, but just say the word and my soul shall be healed.”

I pray that when it is my turn, I will have the presence of mind to do as well as Dismas did.

 

[JRKH]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

Sinnerdexter,
Great Post !!!
This has always struck me as well. Thank you for putting it so well.

The question really comes down to where our “focus” is.

The more we examine the lives of the great saints too, the more we will see this sort of “other-worldly” focus. Not that they don’t have temptations and troubles, but it is surely how they view and handle those troubles that mark a difference and make them worthy of emulation.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

No doubt. It is human, but illogical. To be sure, no one can claim that they are always logical, all the time. Insofar you are correct.

But the other problem, the more serious one is the sinning part. To commit a “sin” cannot be just chalked up to being illogical. It is definitely dumb to knowingly commit an act which could render one to eternal damnation and deprive one of eternal bliss. As sinndexter observed, those people who knowingly commit a “mortal sin” do not really believe what they preach.

You are absolutely right. It IS dumb to knowingly risk heaven by sinning, and all believers need to be constantly on watch against sin. Always keeping their eyes on Christ. Always acting from Love of God and Love of neighbor, for the Love of God.

Of course, we are not perfect…We are all gifted differently and we are all in different places on our journey. Like Children, we are growing.
A small child, acts in ways that are strictly immediate. When they want something they want it now, and consequences don’t enter into the equation. As the child grows, and learns of consequences and of how to treat others properly, their behavior changes. (well most times anyway). This doesn’t mean the child acts perfectly in all instances, but as they mature, their behavior gets better. So it is with spiritual maturity and the effort to subdue the “natural” to the “Spiritual” - the “fallen man” to the “redeemed man”.

Peace
James

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

:ehh: So, if someone truly believes in Catholicism, they will never sin? Looks like Catholicism has only had, what, one true believer?

I’m sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but this post is kind of offensive…

And misinformed. Jesus knows our fallen nature and loves us nonetheless. That’s why we have the sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Perhaps if human beings had a temptation to put there hand on a live rail, some people would. Hey, some people commit suicide. Did you know that?

 

[Holly3278]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

Well, the fact is, us humans are weak creatures and are sometimes easily tempted by the devil to commit sin. All of us fall. The only two humans I know of to have ever been conceived without sin and to live without sin are Mary and Jesus.

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
(Romans 7:14-23 NAB-A)

Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
(1 Corinthians 7:5 NAB-A)

Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground. So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
(Ephesians 6:11-20 NAB-A)

For this reason, when I too could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had put you to the test and our toil might come to nothing.
(1 Thessalonians 3:5 NAB-A)

You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra, persecutions that I endured. Yet from all these things the Lord delivered me. In fact, all who want to live religiously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
(2 Timothy 3:10-15 NAB-A)

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against the soul.
(1 Peter 2:11 NAB-A)

Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour. Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
(1 Peter 5:8-9 NAB-A)

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Sinnerdexter,
Great Post !!!
This has always struck me as well. Thank you for putting it so well.

The question really comes down to where our “focus” is.

The more we examine the lives of the great saints too, the more we will see this sort of “other-worldly” focus. Not that they don’t have temptations and troubles, but it is surely how they view and handle those troubles that mark a difference and make them worthy of emulation.

Peace
James

While sinner dexter has a point. We are all missing a different context in which sin takes place. This is the desire to be our own Gods and to have pleasure when we want it. Sin is irrational, and we are all spiritually wounded with a tendency towards sin, but not to the extent that we cannot do something about it. However; to simply say that we sin because we doubt Gods existence is to express a misunderstanding. Some people sin because at the time of that sin, the sin meant more to them than Gods will. Also, some people really do sin out of weakness such as when they have an addiction. To ignore the fact that influences can encourage us to make irrational choices really is playing blind-man to reality. While sinner dexter’s doo doo obviously doesn’t stink, the most that he is able to prove is that human beings are unfaithful to God, like some men are unfaithful to their wife’s or wifes to husbands. There is no guarantee that certain knowledge of God equals faithfulness to God. Yet God is continuously merciful in giving us the sacraments none-the-less. Being Christian doesn’t necessarily mean that you love God either. We learn to love God. We acquire a spiritual taste for God the more we interact with God with honesty. A true saint has been given the grace to love God; they by themselves were not the cause of their sainthood. That is false interpretation of the catholic faith.

Those who think their good, are not good, and those who admit that they are sinners, are on the road to sainthood.

 

[bkayw]

Great post for semi-mature and for mature Christians. You explain the target well (eternity with the Trinity and the Communion of Saints). Define the goal, steer & strive toward it always.

In human terms however, our earthly time is not short. Children and young adults don’t internalize time as it ticks toward their deaths.

I believe we are born with the two great commandments etched in our souls, but our nature quickly overrides that connectivity to the Trinity.

This became very evident to me when I began explaining to a 4 year old about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Even as a young perseon he was quite disconcerted that Jesus wasn’t physically available for him to see, touch, and hear.

 

[inocente]

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

When we see someone in desperate trouble and go to help them, it may just be a sin to selfishly think “Oh goody, chance to get more air miles to Heaven”.

We sin because we’re not perfect, same reason we can ask to be forgiven. The only way we could never sin would not to be born in the first place.

 

[fhansen]

No doubt. It is human, but illogical. To be sure, no one can claim that they are always logical, all the time. Insofar you are correct.

But it’s not at all illogical to miss someone, unless love’s illogical.

But the other problem, the more serious one is the sinning part. To commit a “sin” cannot be just chalked up to being illogical. It is definitely dumb to knowingly commit an act which could render one to eternal damnation and deprive one of eternal bliss. As sinndexter observed, those people who knowingly commit a “mortal sin” do not really believe what they preach.

Sin or moral evil is considered to be that very thing-an act against reason-and an act against faith. Allegedly the first humans were in the presence of God, told by Him what was right and what was wrong-and the consequences of doing either- and still disobeyed. Catholic faith is simply the way of reconciling this “unnatural” fact, and of man ultimately gaining the wisdom to see that the negative consequences of disobedience, of going against nature, were true.

Man’s faith starts out small. It grows, along with hope and love, as his justification, his-becoming-righteous, increases. IOW, due to Gods patience, the consequences of sin-of going against nature-are not necessarily death anymore-because sin is forgiven and a new chance is obtained-over and over again until we get it right, if necessary-if we’re sincere-or *until *we become unwaveringly sincere. Because, in the end, it’s a matter of our wills becoming totally one with His.