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KendraDZ1902
Guest
If me baking a damn cake is going to send my hypothetical self to Hell ( I totally can’t bake.) Then I’m already damned. No use in even trying. I’ll just bake the cake and eat it too.
Do religious principles justify discrimination against SS couples?
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
That’s basically the definition of unrepentant sin, which is the only sin Christ said couldn’t be forgiven, you know, because you’re not willing to seek repentance. It’s not that “doing this is going to send me to Hell,” the issue is that you are actively participating in something you should be actively opposing. Homosexual “marriages” violate the basic foundation of society and the purpose and reality of marriage. They seek to replace reality with a fantasy. Nothing positive can result when we ignore what is in favorite of what isn’t.
You see a cake, being baked for money; an exterior observer sees another happy participant in immoral and irrational fantasies.
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nodito
Guest
But the cake it part of the celebration. The celebration is sinful. Therefore, baking the cake is to be part of the celebration.You aren’t celebrating it. The people who were invited and are eating the cake that was bought and dancing on the dance floor are the ones celebrating it.
I don’t feel strongly that a baker MUST refuse to bake the cake, but I DO feel strongly that the baker ought to have that right, and that it is in keeping with logic and compassion to refuse to bake the cake for a gay wedding while agreeing to bake a similar cake for a birthday event. I certainly don’t think it’s eye-roll worthy to argue this.
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phil19034
Guest
I don’t think being damned to hell for baking a cake is the issue nor real concern.
I think the issue is what message are “you” giving by baking the cake?
For example, let’s assume that none of your family, friends, etc. know that you baked the cake. Let’s also assume that you have no employees. Then, the it’s possible that your agreement to baking the cake doesn’t scandalize anyone.
Now, let’s assume that you have a young teenager working for you at the bakery. The creation of the gay wedding cake could imply to the teenager that you agree with same-sex marriage, which could influence the teenager to accept same-sex marriage as OK.
Now, let’s drag this out a few years… let’s assume that you did a same-sex wedding cake, that everyone thought was beautiful. The couple recommend you to their friends (which is how many bakers get their wedding cake business, btw). So, you start getting more business for same-sex weddings. Eventually, some local “gay-wedding” planner or blog recommends you publicly for same-sex wedding cakes… More business starts rolling in, but now, some supporters of traditional marriage stop calling you. Eventually, you are receiving a “nice” percentage of your wedding cake business from same-sex marriages, which you believe are immoral. A few years later, you are discussing same-sex marriage with your teenage or adult children, and they say to you: “mom, you are such a hypocrite. You have no problem making money from same sex marriages, but you are against them? This is an other example why religion is BS and not for me.”
It’s not one individual cake. It’s the message a business owner sends when they take money for immoral actions, events, etc: and/or when they take money for doing something which is against their own personal conscience.
Forcing people (by law) to go against their conscience is a very dangerous slope, which can lead people to be forced to do things in the future because of fear of government retaliation.
I believe this is the issue at hand. It’s not just religious rights… but it’s also conscience rights.
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phil19034
Guest
I wrote the below originally for my previous post, but decided to post it as it’s own post since it was very different from the rest of my last post:
Let’s look at some examples of small business owner rights for a second:
If you were store owner who felt that guns were bad and were admitted against guns, would you sell guns in your store? Of course not. Would that be a violation against gun owner’s rights? No. Gun owners might not agree, but no rights would be violated.
Let’s say a customer walks into a bakery and says to the baker… “I was just watching ‘Cake Boss’ and I want a large cake that looks like a mountain with a tunnel in it. I want an eatable train to circle around the cake and go through the tunnel, it will also need blinking lights and sound when the train crosses a railroad crossing.” The baker has every right to turn down the business if those kind of cakes are not what the baker is willing to create (even if the baker has the skills necessary). The customer does not have the right to sue because they cannot get the cake they want.
So the same should be allowed with bakers, photographers, wedding planners, etc. who OWN their own businesses and choose not to service “same sex wedding.” They should be allowed to detail which services they offer and which they do not. There are plenty of bakers, photographers, etc. who will service same-sex weddings… people should be allowed to following their conscience and small business owners should be allowed to determine what goods/services they will sell.
NOTE: I do believe that a baker, photographer, wedding planner who does NOT own their business should do whatever the owners dictate their policy is. If the owner wants to service gay weddings, that’s the owners’ right and an individual employee should not deny a cake, service, etc. if the owners would allow it.
God Bless.
Let’s look at some examples of small business owner rights for a second:
If you were store owner who felt that guns were bad and were admitted against guns, would you sell guns in your store? Of course not. Would that be a violation against gun owner’s rights? No. Gun owners might not agree, but no rights would be violated.
Let’s say a customer walks into a bakery and says to the baker… “I was just watching ‘Cake Boss’ and I want a large cake that looks like a mountain with a tunnel in it. I want an eatable train to circle around the cake and go through the tunnel, it will also need blinking lights and sound when the train crosses a railroad crossing.” The baker has every right to turn down the business if those kind of cakes are not what the baker is willing to create (even if the baker has the skills necessary). The customer does not have the right to sue because they cannot get the cake they want.
So the same should be allowed with bakers, photographers, wedding planners, etc. who OWN their own businesses and choose not to service “same sex wedding.” They should be allowed to detail which services they offer and which they do not. There are plenty of bakers, photographers, etc. who will service same-sex weddings… people should be allowed to following their conscience and small business owners should be allowed to determine what goods/services they will sell.
NOTE: I do believe that a baker, photographer, wedding planner who does NOT own their business should do whatever the owners dictate their policy is. If the owner wants to service gay weddings, that’s the owners’ right and an individual employee should not deny a cake, service, etc. if the owners would allow it.
God Bless.
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unstoppable_II
Guest
I think the topic is a little broader than employment. In that case, there could be justification for “discriminating” “against” SS “couples” in other areas. For example, there was a lesbian couple in our parish a few years ago. Parishioners accepted them with no problems. Then one day, they were gone. Turns out acceptance wasn’t enough; they wanted to be Eucharistic ministers. The pastor thought this would be sending a mixed message and declined to accept them into the ministry.
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Parisian
Guest
Of course. God’s laws come first. It is our Christian duty to obey the laws of God rather than man. (Acts 5:29)
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Tomdstone
Guest
I don’t think so. When you provide services to someone, you are not necessarily approving their actions. Take for example, when you provide a service and rent out an apartment to a couple. You rent out the apartment, but you don’t approve of their using artificial birth control while they are renting your place.
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KendraDZ1902
Guest
The dress apart of the celebration. The décor is part of the celebration. I’m not the cake, dress, or décor. I made the cake, just like someone made the dress and the gaudy material to make those ugly decorations.
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KendraDZ1902
Guest
I would tell my children that those people have different beliefs than me and that they are entitled to believe whatever way they want to. I love the sinner and hate the sin and that I feel that denying them a totally normal service (which cakes are totally normal) is unjust. They also have the right to decide to think religion is BS, but they will continue to attend Mass and behave properly at Mass while they are under my roof.
People shouldn’t assume. Assuming makes an a*s out of U and ME. People probably assume all sorts of things about me already. Not my problem that they have decided something based solely on an assumption, that’s just stupidity.
I don’t care what the government decides.
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Rau
Guest
Not just those people Kendra, it’s the law of the land. It must be a good thing!
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Rau
Guest
It goes beyond that as I’ve said. Eg. Sibling sex is not illegal is many states, but it is not endorsed! No state will issue a marriage licence to siblings.
But States endorse SSM. They say it is good, proper, a human “right” (well, some activists make the latter claim). Do you see the (huge) difference?
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KendraDZ1902
Guest
You aren’t going to marry the same sex just because it is legal. Just like I didn’t marry a first cousin just because it is legal in my state. I don’t know my state law on sibling sex, but it is Alabama so stereotypically we marry our siblings here, never had sibling sex.
Are states giving people who sign up for gay marriage licenses incentives that aren’t given to straight couples? “Hey the state is giving gays couples $5,000 bucks to sign up to be married!!” No? Ok, we’re good then.
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Rau
Guest
Kendra, I think you’re introducing red herrings. IMHO, you’re obfuscating.
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KendraDZ1902
Guest
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Rau
Guest
Sibling sex was raised as an example to demonstrate the error you made in not recognising the difference between a thing which the state tolerates (does not declare illegal) and a thing to which the Sate gives positive endorsement.LOL. I didn’t introduce sibling sex, you did. So YOU introduced the red herring.
Obfuscating? wow. Just say that you are done with the conversation, instead of this silliness you are pulling.
On the other hand, your references to choosing an SSM partner “just because it’s legal”, and “incentives for SSM”…
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Thorolfr
Guest
What do people think here about renting an apartment to a same-sex couple? After all, you are providing them a place (a bedroom) where they are likely to commit sexual acts that you might consider immoral. Would refusing to rent an apartment to a same-sex couple be unjust discrimination?
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Tomdstone
Guest
Would there be any difference between renting an apartment to a SS couple and renting an apartment to a couple who you knew would be practicing ABC? In both cases, they are likely to engage in immoral activity.
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KendraDZ1902
Guest
Rau- It’s the law of the land. It’s a good thing!Sibling sex was raised as an example to demonstrate the error you made in not recognising the difference between a thing which the state tolerates (does not declare illegal) and a thing to which the Sate gives positive endorsement.
On the other hand, your references to choosing an SSM partner “just because it’s legal”, and “incentives for SSM”…
Kendra- just because it is legal doesn’t mean you are going to do it. (I think I said that a few times.)
Rau-states allow sibling sex.
Kendra-yeah well, doesn’t mean everyone does it.
Rau-They are endorsing SSM marriage! Ahhh!!
Kendra- Yeah, well. They aren’t giving out extra incentives to have a SSM. Oh, and just because the state allows/endorses/makes it legal doesn’t mean people are going to jump in and do it.
My mind isn’t changing, dude.
Eye rolls don’t bother me. I roll my eyes so much that half the time I’m not even aware that I am doing it, I know because I get called out. And then I roll them again.
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