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lak611
Guest
Since SDA believe that all other Christians worship on the wrong day of the week, do they think the SDA is the only religion whose members will be saved?
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MarysRoses
Guest
The official answer is yes.
Maybe…
Well, heck, only 1 in 20 ADVENTISTS will be saved (according to a vision of Ellen G White), so while its officially yes, the real answer is 1 in a million… maybe.
MarysRoses
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lak611
Guest
Wow. How do they know if they are among the 1 in 20?The official answer is yes.
Maybe…
Well, heck, only 1 in 20 ADVENTISTS will be saved (according to a vision of Ellen G White), so while its officially yes, the real answer is 1 in a million… maybe.
MarysRoses
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MarysRoses
Guest
OOPS!The official answer is yes.
Maybe…
Well, heck, only 1 in 20 ADVENTISTS will be saved (according to a vision of Ellen G White), so while its officially yes, the real answer is 1 in a million… maybe.
MarysRoses
Documentation, before the avalanche of angry messages hits my box.
“It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.”
Ellen G. White “Christian Service” pg. 42 1893
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MarysRoses
Guest
They don’t. Not in my experience
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lak611
Guest
That is really sad that people would belong to a religion that provides so little hope for salvation.
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MarysRoses
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Maria1212
Guest
Some Adventists have told me they believe some other Christians, including perhaps a few Catholics, might also be saved. But this appears to be their personal opinion, rather than than an official teaching of the Adventist Church. They also seem to say this when they are on the defensive about their Church “being attacked.”
I have not read any official Adventist teachings saying non-Adventist Christians will be saved.
Adventists also do not believe heaven and hell are eternal, which is contrary to the Gospel.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
I have not read any official Adventist teachings saying non-Adventist Christians will be saved.
Adventists also do not believe heaven and hell are eternal, which is contrary to the Gospel.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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BelFarfalla
Guest
My they are just realistic based about their denom ability to help people on the path to salvation.
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lak611
Guest
What do they believe happens to people once heaven and hell are gone? Where do they think people go?
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Protestant101
Guest
Unfortunately; your quote from Ellen White was taken out of context from a compilation of her writings done by someone else. So that may be another subject, more suited to another topic; but in regards to your adamant statements that we do not have any assurance of salvation; etc., etc., perhaps we could discuss our official belief, on the experience of salvation?
This is our official statement, done by The General Conference and it seems to allow lots of room for other faith back grounds, besides our own:
If you find any part of this belief “unscriptural;” then perhaps we could discuss here why?
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Maria1212
Guest
I mispoke in my above post. Aparently Ellen White thought some Catholics might be saved. The following is from:
catholic.com/library/seventh_day_adventism.asp
*There is a “moderate” wing of Adventism that is more open to Catholics as individuals (though still retaining White’s views concerning the papacy). In fact, White was willing to concede that—in the here and now (before the end times)—some Catholics are saved. She wrote that “there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before him. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than Rome, will thereby honor popery above God” (The Great Controversy., 395). *
I had read that Adventists did not believe heaven was eternal. But according to the following, they believe heaven is eternal, but not hell. I will track down the other source indicating they believed heaven was not eternal to double check. In the interim, please see the following:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp
Adventists teach that the soul of man is not conscious after death, but that it enters into a kind of sleep when the body dies. When the resurrection occurs, bodies and souls will be revivified. Just people will enter into life everlasting, while the wicked will be punished by fire until they die and cease to exist once again.
Paul writes in Philippians 1:23–24, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” He is saying he would prefer to be martyred and be with Christ, but he realizes it is necessary for him to remain alive in order to spread the gospel by his preaching. If the soul “sleeps” (ceases to exists, really) at death, how could it be “better by far” to be martyred rather than continue to have fruitful labor here on Earth?
Adventists are fond of quoting Ecclesiastes 3:19–21 and other Old Testament passages which seem to indicate there is no afterlife. These passages are either written from a human point of view, or they are based on the incomplete revelation the Israelites had concerning the afterlife. It was only when Jesus brought “life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10) that it became clear what the state of the soul is after death.
The Bible teaches the eternal duration of hell. Jesus says in Matthew 25:46, “They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life:” If Adventists concede eternal life is never-ending, they must also concede eternal punishment is never-ending.
The following is also helpful;
ttp://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.aspç
Sincerely,
Maria1212
catholic.com/library/seventh_day_adventism.asp
*There is a “moderate” wing of Adventism that is more open to Catholics as individuals (though still retaining White’s views concerning the papacy). In fact, White was willing to concede that—in the here and now (before the end times)—some Catholics are saved. She wrote that “there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before him. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than Rome, will thereby honor popery above God” (The Great Controversy., 395). *
I had read that Adventists did not believe heaven was eternal. But according to the following, they believe heaven is eternal, but not hell. I will track down the other source indicating they believed heaven was not eternal to double check. In the interim, please see the following:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp
Adventists teach that the soul of man is not conscious after death, but that it enters into a kind of sleep when the body dies. When the resurrection occurs, bodies and souls will be revivified. Just people will enter into life everlasting, while the wicked will be punished by fire until they die and cease to exist once again.
Paul writes in Philippians 1:23–24, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” He is saying he would prefer to be martyred and be with Christ, but he realizes it is necessary for him to remain alive in order to spread the gospel by his preaching. If the soul “sleeps” (ceases to exists, really) at death, how could it be “better by far” to be martyred rather than continue to have fruitful labor here on Earth?
Adventists are fond of quoting Ecclesiastes 3:19–21 and other Old Testament passages which seem to indicate there is no afterlife. These passages are either written from a human point of view, or they are based on the incomplete revelation the Israelites had concerning the afterlife. It was only when Jesus brought “life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10) that it became clear what the state of the soul is after death.
The Bible teaches the eternal duration of hell. Jesus says in Matthew 25:46, “They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life:” If Adventists concede eternal life is never-ending, they must also concede eternal punishment is never-ending.
The following is also helpful;
ttp://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.aspç
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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Maria1212
Guest
Hi Protestant 101,
You posted before my message below posted. In my post below yours, I had written that indeed, I had mispoken, and cited a quote from Ellen White indicating that some non-Adventists, including Catholics, might be saved.
What I found unscriptural, are Adventists beliefs that hell is not eternal. I would be happy to discuss that on a new thread. I will start one and post the link on this thread, but won`t have time to do that until later in the day.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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MarysRoses
Guest
funny, “out of context, done by ‘someone’ else”
The quote is from the searchable data base of the complete published works of Ellen G. White, made available by The Andrews Ellen G. White Estate Branch Office, and is accessible through the whitestate.org website, which is the official web presence of the White Estate, which manages and controls the writings and publishing rights to Ellen G. White’s work.
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default
I don’t think the link leads to anything but the search page, so here’s how to get to it to verify.
Homepage: whiteestate.org/
Click on the search tab at the left, or :
whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
Use the new interface, there is a link (the old one requires detailed knowledge of where to find what you are looking for)
Then under books, click on Christian Service, then on Chapter 3.
This is the 1925 edition, not 1893, but the quote is the same.
This is off the Ellen White Estate website, from a published work they list. Its not "out of context’ or put together by a non-adventist.
MarysRoses
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MarysRoses
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There may be ‘generous’ statements that non-Adventists and even catholics might be saved in Ellen White’s writings, if you read them closer you will find:
“As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience.” Review and Herald, Jan 5 1886
She does make a statement that those who faithfully keep sunday, not knowing about the sabbath, might be saved.
but again, she goes on to say…
“If God has sent a message to the world, giving us light in regard to the true Sabbath, and showing us that the great Lawgiver is coming to judge the world in righteousness, those who refuse to accept the message and continue to cling to their errors and to their darkness and unbelief, will, like the inhabitants of the Noachian world, be punished with everlasting destruction.”
RH, Jan 5 1886
So basically, if you have heard the SDA ‘message’ and reject it, you are lost. Also not to be missed in SDA soteriology, if you don’t keep the sabbath, you will be lost.
MarysRoses
“As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience.” Review and Herald, Jan 5 1886
She does make a statement that those who faithfully keep sunday, not knowing about the sabbath, might be saved.
but again, she goes on to say…
“If God has sent a message to the world, giving us light in regard to the true Sabbath, and showing us that the great Lawgiver is coming to judge the world in righteousness, those who refuse to accept the message and continue to cling to their errors and to their darkness and unbelief, will, like the inhabitants of the Noachian world, be punished with everlasting destruction.”
RH, Jan 5 1886
So basically, if you have heard the SDA ‘message’ and reject it, you are lost. Also not to be missed in SDA soteriology, if you don’t keep the sabbath, you will be lost.
MarysRoses
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Protestant101
Guest
I appreciate you recognizing more closely that we do not condemn all Catholics, or others, as “not saved.” That is very meaningful to know that it is possible to also discuss differing views on the doctrine of the state of the dead, hellfire; etc.
I found that Joseph M. Pavicic in the above article you cited is a little off base in his characterization of Adventists. To me, there is a big difference between characterizing a group of people, or a denomination, and showing where there beliefs are either right or wrong.
Here is one example. I will quote something he said; and then comment briefly:
First of all; the Sabbath is not “a central tenet;” but rather a distinctive tenet.
Second, this is not the first “theological point that a Seventh-day Adventist is likely to challenge a Catholic on,” because there are times when it would be more important to stress some other “doctrine of Christ.” (2 Jo.1:9). Personally; I see “the doctrine of Christ” as a set or a series of doctrines; collectively giving a panoramic view, so to speak of “Christ, and Him crucified.” Therefore, it follows that if say, you and I were to meet somewhere, and I saw that you were very obviously ill; you were on oxygen; and in a wheel chair; there is something else I would feel responsible to talk to you about - even though you were “a Catholic.” The first thing I would want to express to you would be the "doctrine in Micah 7:8, for eg.
BTW, I am glad that none of these things have actually happened to you; I hope you understand the example I am trying to show here.
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lak611
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Hell not being eternal is unbiblical, as is “soul-sleep” and annihilation.
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Maria1212
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Maria1212
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For those who are interested, I started a separate thread to discuss Adventist and Catholic teachings and beliefs on hell.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2299767#post2299767
Sincerely,
Maria1212
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2299767#post2299767
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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Icarus210
Guest
Just to clarify something. The sabbath IS SATURDAY. Always has been, always will be.
The reason the new Christians changed their meeting day was for many reasons, one being to differ from the Jewish Sabbath. The Lord’s Day was the Sunday, seemed appropriate to worship Christs death and risen Glory.
So if the SDA’s want to follow Jewish dogma, they should become Jews.
The reason the new Christians changed their meeting day was for many reasons, one being to differ from the Jewish Sabbath. The Lord’s Day was the Sunday, seemed appropriate to worship Christs death and risen Glory.
So if the SDA’s want to follow Jewish dogma, they should become Jews.
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