Do sola scriptura advocates believe that the word of God was transmitted through the person of Paul, and not just Paul’s letters?

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We all know, when Paul preached, he did so with God’s authority. Do sola scriptura advocates believe that the word of God was transmitted through the person of Paul, and not just Paul’s letters?
 
Of course while Paul was alive he taught with authority. We don’t have Paul in person but we do have the Scripturers in place of him as John Chrysostom taught.
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child you have known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
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“For doctrine.” For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us.
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“That the man of God may be perfect.” For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!
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“Thoroughly furnished unto all good works”; not merely taking part in them, he means, but “thoroughly furnished.”
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(Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17) (empasis added)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm

You start many threads with respect to Sola Scriptura, this one with respect to Paul’s teaching. Can you tell me one teaching that came from Paul that is not recorded in Scripture?
 
SyCarl said:
Can you tell me one teaching that came from Paul that is not recorded in Scripture?
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Here you go:

St. Victorinus: “In the whole world Paul taught that all the churches are arranged by sevens, that they are called seven, and that the Catholic Church is one. And first of all, indeed, that he himself also might maintain the type of seven churches, he did not exceed that number. But he wrote to the Romans, to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Thessalonians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians; afterwards he wrote to individual persons, so as not to exceed the number of seven churches… Therefore in these seven churches, of one Catholic Church are believers, because it is one in seven by the quality of faith and election.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 16)

God bless.
 
Hey Carl…

Just one that I know of friend. Paul provided a quotation from Jesus, which is not recorded in the NT, but rather handed down to him orally: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” Acts 20:35

It occurred to me some time ago, that from the very beginning, the fullness of Christian truth could be found in Jesus’ established Church, as the living embodiment of Christ, via sacred scripture and sacred tradition. The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you,” and we know that he delivered said tradition either by word of mouth or by letter, and just as Paul’s letters were passed on and safeguarded by Jesus’ church leadership, so were his oral teachings passed on and safeguarded by His church, and His Church has been, and continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit, Who protects Jesus’ deposit of faith from corruption. (John 14:25-26, 16:13)

Jesus’ teaching Church, with its oral, apostolic tradition, was trusted and authoritative before scripture was ever penned, and the bible, finally codified, in the 4th century, and tradition was the yardstick used by His church to determine the canon of scripture, and if the holy spirit was guiding His church into all truth, enabling Jesus’ church, via tradition, to correctly codify the canon of scripture, hundreds of years after the apostles walked the earth, and is still a guiding force in Jesus’ church today, then it is safe to say, whatever Paul and the rest of the apostles passed on, orally, to their successors, is still safely safeguarded in Jesus’ church today, along with sacred scripture, again, thanks to the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit. It certainly seems biblical that Jesus’ Church has been, and still is being guided by the Holy Spirit, and it is the HS Who protects the deposit of faith, (word of mouth or letter) - from corruption; the HS gets all the credit for the preservation of truth in Jesus’ established church.

Your thoughts friend?
 
Luke65 said:
Here you go:

St. Victorinus: “In the whole world Paul taught that all the churches are arranged by sevens, that they are called seven, and that the Catholic Church is one. And first of all, indeed, that he himself also might maintain the type of seven churches, he did not exceed that number. But he wrote to the Romans, to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Thessalonians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians; afterwards he wrote to individual persons, so as not to exceed the number of seven churches… Therefore in these seven churches, of one Catholic Church are believers, because it is one in seven by the quality of faith and election.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 16)

God bless.
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And is this a teaching that the Catholic Church teaches today?
 
joe370 said:
Hey Carl…

Just one that I know of friend. Paul provided a quotation from Jesus, which is not recorded in the NT, but rather handed down to him orally: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” Acts 20:35

It occurred to me some time ago, that from the very beginning, the fullness of Christian truth could be found in Jesus’ established Church, as the living embodiment of Christ, via sacred scripture and sacred tradition. The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you,” and we know that he delivered said tradition either by word of mouth or by letter, and just as Paul’s letters were passed on and safeguarded by Jesus’ church leadership, so were his oral teachings passed on and safeguarded by His church, and His Church has been, and continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit, Who protects Jesus’ deposit of faith from corruption. (John 14:25-26, 16:13)

Jesus’ teaching Church, with its oral, apostolic tradition, was trusted and authoritative before scripture was ever penned, and the bible, finally codified, in the 4th century, and tradition was the yardstick used by His church to determine the canon of scripture, and if the holy spirit was guiding His church into all truth, enabling Jesus’ church, via tradition, to correctly codify the canon of scripture, hundreds of years after the apostles walked the earth, and is still a guiding force in Jesus’ church today, then it is safe to say, whatever Paul and the rest of the apostles passed on, orally, to their successors, is still safely safeguarded in Jesus’ church today, along with sacred scripture, again, thanks to the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit. It certainly seems biblical that Jesus’ Church has been, and still is being guided by the Holy Spirit, and it is the HS Who protects the deposit of faith, (word of mouth or letter) - from corruption; the HS gets all the credit for the preservation of truth in Jesus’ established church.

Your thoughts friend?
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You misunderstood me. I meant can you name a teaching of Paul that is still taught today that is not recorded somewhere in Scripture. The quote you give is recorded in Scripture by Paul and so is not an oral teaching that has not been recorded.

The Scripture did not become Scripture because the Church codified the canon. It became Scripture as soon as it was penned under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The church fathers had no problem referring to New Testament Scripture long before any council purported to define the canon.

Of course the Holy Spirit guides the Church but we define the Church differently.

Again I would ask if you can identify one oral tradition taught by Paul that is not recorded by himself or someone elae in Scripture and is still taught today.
 
Carl, I think that it is important to remember that, for about 40 years, there was no written record of Jesus’ life. The first writer in the NT is Paul, and his first letter is dated roughly around AD 50 which is still a good 20 years after Jesus’ ascension. In this interim, the apostles were passing on the teachings of Jesus via oral tradition, and their listeners were also passing on the teachings of Jesus via oral tradition. We see within Jesus’ church, the apostles, and their disciples, and their disciples and their disciples, etc. etc. - passing on to others, what happened to Jesus, what he stood for, and what he did, and this was all done orally, by telling it and retelling it over a 40 year period. The gospels themselves and their full account of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus came a full generation, and in some cases, two generations later, and those oral narrative’s had a long time to evolve and develop and possibly become distorted, leading to distortions in the 4 gospels that we possess today, but, thanks to the ever presence and guidance of the holy spirit (in the early church) - sent to Jesus’ church on Pentecost, we can trust that these oral traditions, passed on from teacher to pupil, for a full generation, were eventually, infallibly committed to writing, and free of distortion.

If this divine providence in Jesus’ fledgling church, regarding oral teachings, was possible for the first 40 years of Christianity, and in some cases, longer, then why couldn’t it be possible in His church, through every generation?
 
SyCarl said:
And is this a teaching that the Catholic Church teaches today?
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Does the Catholic Church teach today that it is the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded and built on the foundation of Peter the Rock, and all the apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the Cornerstone? Yes, of course. The name “Catholic Church” was not recorded in Scripture, not obviously anyway, but it was part of Apostolic Tradition. Isn’t that what you are asking for?
 
SyCarl;7415299]You misunderstood me. I meant can you name a teaching of Paul that is still taught today that is not recorded somewhere in Scripture. The quote you give is recorded in Scripture by Paul and so is not an oral teaching that has not been recorded.
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Specifically from Paul? Nope. Does that negate the traditions of the CC, which, no doubt, have their origin in Paul and the other apostles? What are some traditions, of the CC that you reject, if you don’t mind me asking, how do you know that those apostolic traditions, of the CC, were not orally preserved in Jesus’ church through every generation, thanks to the guidance of the ever present holy spirit, and lastly, do you believe that Paul, taught orally, regarding sola scriptura? I ask because I cannot find where scripture supports sola scriptura (scripture alone.) I know that scripture tells us that all scripture is inspired…but that does not support the practice of scripture alone or, only scripture is inspired. Your thoughts friend?
The Scripture did not become Scripture because the Church codified the canon. It became Scripture as soon as it was penned under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The church fathers had no problem referring to New Testament Scripture long before any council purported to define the canon.
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The CC was instrumental in deciding what would be included and what wouldn’t be included in the canon of scripture, but I respect your decision to disagree with me. 👍
Of course the Holy Spirit guides the Church but we define the Church differently.
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I don’t think we do. We both see Jesus’ church as an assembly of united brothers and sister in Christ - correct?
 
Luke65 said:
Does the Catholic Church teach today that it is the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded and built on the foundation of Peter the Rock, and all the apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the Cornerstone? Yes, of course. The name “Catholic Church” was not recorded in Scripture, not obviously anyway, but it was part of Apostolic Tradition. Isn’t that what you are asking for?
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It’s actually pretty obvious in the Greek.
 
I must ask: Am I wrong in saying that the 27 books of the holy Bible (7 of which were considered questionable by many) - were not considered divinely inspired until the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage culled, and eventually identified and placed those 27 books of the New Testament together, in 382 AD, 393 AD and 397 AD?

What about the Catholic Tradition of meeting on Sunday, rather than the Jewish custom of meeting on Saturday?
 
joe370 said:
Carl, I think that it is important to remember that, for about 40 years, there was no written record of Jesus’ life. The first writer in the NT is Paul, and his first letter is dated roughly around AD 50 which is still a good 20 years after Jesus’ ascension. In this interim, the apostles were passing on the teachings of Jesus via oral tradition, and their listeners were also passing on the teachings of Jesus via oral tradition. We see within Jesus’ church, the apostles, and their disciples, and their disciples and their disciples, etc. etc. - passing on to others, what happened to Jesus, what he stood for, and what he did, and this was all done orally, by telling it and retelling it over a 40 year period. The gospels themselves and their full account of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus came a full generation, and in some cases, two generations later, and those oral narrative’s had a long time to evolve and develop and possibly become distorted, leading to distortions in the 4 gospels that we possess today, but, thanks to the ever presence and guidance of the holy spirit (in the early church) - sent to Jesus’ church on Pentecost, we can trust that these oral traditions, passed on from teacher to pupil, for a full generation, were eventually, infallibly committed to writing, and free of distortion.

If this divine providence in Jesus’ fledgling church, regarding oral teachings, was possible for the first 40 years of Christianity, and in some cases, longer, then why couldn’t it be possible in His church, through every generation?
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I don’t think that anyone who supports Sola Scriptura would say it applies during a time of revelation while things are being inscripurated. Once revelation ended and inscripturation was complete, Scripture became the only inerrant record of that revelation. Irenaeus talked of both tradition and Scripture but he also says the oral teachings were recorded in Scripture. Tradition didn’t contain more or a different revelation than Scripture.
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
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(Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1. Paragraph 1.)
newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm

Irenaeus wrote against the Gnostic heresy. What was one of their claims but that they had a separate oral tradition from the apostles in addition to Scripture. How do you combat that by claiming you have a different oral tradition? You rely on Scripture.
When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.”
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(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Paragraph 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iii.html

He notes the Gnostics claimed that the truth was delivered orally in addition to what was written. How is that any different from what the Catholic Church teaches today?

If oral transmission could be trusted to continue indefinitely why would the apostles have bothered to write anything at all and when they did write it why would they only leave a partial written record? The Apostle John was still alive and writing while Gnosticism was starting. Would he have left things unrecorded knowing that they claimed unrecorded teachings?
 
Luke65 said:
Does the Catholic Church teach today that it is the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded and built on the foundation of Peter the Rock, and all the apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the Cornerstone? Yes, of course. The name “Catholic Church” was not recorded in Scripture, not obviously anyway, but it was part of Apostolic Tradition. Isn’t that what you are asking for?
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Scripture teaches of the universal church which is what catholic means. Your quote indicated that Paul taught that churches were arranged by sevens. Is this part of what the Catholic Church teaches today?
 
joe370 said:
I must ask: Am I wrong in saying that the 27 books of the holy Bible (7 of which were considered questionable by many) - were not considered divinely inspired until the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage culled, and eventually identified and placed those 27 books of the New Testament together, in 382 AD, 393 AD and 397 AD?

What about the Catholic Tradition of meeting on Sunday, rather than the Jewish custom of meeting on Saturday?
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The church fathers seemed able to refer to New Testament Scripture long before any of these councils.
 
SyCarl said:
The church fathers seemed able to refer to New Testament Scripture long before any of these councils.
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Perhaps those catholic councils were never even necessary for determining what should be included in the canon of sacred scripture and what shouldn’t be included in the canon of sacred scripture???
 
Luke65 said:
Does the Catholic Church teach today that it is the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded and built on the foundation of Peter the Rock, and all the apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the Cornerstone? Yes, of course. The name “Catholic Church” was not recorded in Scripture, not obviously anyway, but it was part of Apostolic Tradition. Isn’t that what you are asking for?
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SyCarl is trying to make his point that everything we need for our salvation is found in the Scriptures - that Sacred Tradition is non-essential.
 
joe370 said:
I don’t think we do. We both see Jesus’ church as an assembly of united brothers and sister in Christ - correct?
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No, Joe, SyCarl does define the Church differently than we do. We do agree that the church includes the assembly of the faithful, but Catholics espouse the Apostolic defninition, where Presbyterians created their own, which departs from what the Apsotles believed and taught. They don’t recognize the Apostolic Succession, or that Jesus kept His promise to the Church to lead them into all Truth.
 
joe370 said:
I must ask: Am I wrong in saying that the 27 books of the holy Bible (7 of which were considered questionable by many) - were not considered divinely inspired until the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage culled, and eventually identified and placed those 27 books of the New Testament together, in 382 AD, 393 AD and 397 AD?
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You are right, but so is SyCarl. They were inspired and inerrant Scripture as soon as they were penned.
 
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