I could not agree with you more. I think these are shining examples of a pre-mortal existence. I am not a sola-scriptora person so I will accept extra-biblical beliefs but this is not one of them. It is clear we existed prior to our conceptionThere are several references in the Bible to a premortal life. Three of these references are: When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. 7. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4
I could not disagree more. It is not clear we existed before conception. Is clay a pot before the potter forms it. No. If the pot exists it is only in the mind of the potter not in the clay that becomes the pot. There is more to a pot than just the potters vision of it. In Gods mind Of coarseI could not agree with you more. I think these are shining examples of a pre-mortal existence. I am not a sola-scriptora person so I will accept extra-biblical beliefs but this is not one of them. It is clear we existed prior to our conception
Let me offer another example. I’m sure you are familiar with the blind man talked about in John Ch:9I could not disagree more. It is not clear we existed before conception. Is clay a pot before the potter forms it. No. If the pot exists it is only in the mind of the potter not in the clay that becomes the pot. There is more to a pot than just the potters vision of it. In Gods mind Of coarse
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15666a.htm
The New Testament writers appear perfectly familiar with this deutero-canonical writing (cf. Matt., xxvii, 42, 43, with Wis., ii, 13, 18; Rom., xi, 34, with Wis., ix, 13; Eph., vi, 13, 17, with Wis., v, 18, 19; Heb., i, 3, with Wis., vii, 26; etc. It is true that to justify their rejection of the Book of Wisdom from the Canon, many Protestants have claimed that in viii, 19-20, its author admits the error of the pre-existence of the human soul. But this incriminated passage, when viewed in the light of its context, yields a perfectly orthodox sense.
Many people believe in the pre-existance of the soul. I am glad if that helps them in this journey through this life. Jehovah’s Witness’s do not believe in an immortal soul so I doubt the be-lieve in it’s pre-existance. To be Catholic I must believe what the church teaches. that is that there is no pre-existance of the soul which God makes immortal upon its creation.
I’m sorry to say that what you have presented as evidence in your above statement dose not sound reasonable to The Catholic Church or reasoning and truth seeking Catholics like my self. But you are free to believe what gives you hope. It seems you have put your hope in a thread that is stretched to the breaking point rather then grasping the stout rope of Catholic reasoning. Be careful that you do not come to believe that the ordinary housefly also has a pre-existance. Read Genesis. First came the forming of creature then came the breath of life. While one may say this is not conclusive it surly points in a certain direction. Peace.Let me offer another example. I’m sure you are familiar with the blind man talked about in John Ch:9
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
On the surface this doesn’t seem to speak to pre-mortal existance, however i the light of verse 1 we know the man was blind from birth. Why would the disciples ask if the mans own sin caused his blindness if he was blind from birth. Not only does this scripture show there was a pre-mortal existance, it also shows a state of moral agency prior to our earth life. This shows that the disciples of Jesus had been taught about this pre-earth existence and since Jesus did not rebuke them for posing a question with a false pretense we can discern that Jesus accepted the same.
Genesis Ch 1: 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.I’m sorry to say that what you have presented as evidence in your above statement dose not sound reasonable to The Catholic Church or reasoning and truth seeking Catholics like my self. But you are free to believe what gives you hope. It seems you have put your hope in a thread that is stretched to the breaking point rather then grasping the stout rope of Catholic reasoning. Be careful that you do not come to believe that the ordinary housefly also has a pre-existance. Read Genesis. First came the forming of creature then came the breath of life. While one may say this is not conclusive it surly points in a certain direction. Peace.
If that was so then everything else he created would have been in a “spiritual sense”, including the fishes of the sea and the house fly, as you say. I have provided the foot note which agrees with your interpretation if you put aside the fact that God was making the physical man and imparting to him a spirit at the same time. You are free to believe your interpretation if that gives you hope but as I said before to believe the soul is pre-existent may seem quite innocent but would require in the end a belief quite apart from believing Jesus is the Savior who died on the cross in order to save man. The Christian belief is incompatible with transmigration which is the error one ends up with if believing in the pre-existence of the soul. The ultimate result is the abandonment of Jesus Christ as the last best hope for the chaotic belief in the possibility of once being a house fly and possibility of returning to that condition. No thanks! Jesus and the successors of Peter have a much better answer.Genesis Ch 1: 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis Ch 2:1 “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.”
Then verse 7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
How is it in Ch1 man was created, but in Ch2 he was formed from the dust and breathed to life. He was created spiritually in Ch1 and physically in Ch2. In fact 2:1 says that “all the host of them” This is us!! We are the host of them!!
Read Genesis Ch 1 & 2 very carefully paying attention to chronology you will see the truth of pre-mortal existence.
I do not see how a belief in a pre-mortal existance extends to a belief in reincarnation. We are created by God in spirit, that spirit is placed in a tabernacle of flesh, when that flesh lays down the spirit goes to a place of waiting until the resurrection when it is for eternity re-united with the body. This in no way implies that we were once or ever will be a house fly.If that was so then everything else he created would have been in a “spiritual sense”, including the fishes of the sea and the house fly, as you say. I have provided the foot note which agrees with your interpretation if you put aside the fact that God was making the physical man and imparting to him a spirit at the same time. You are free to believe your interpretation if that gives you hope but as I said before to believe the soul is pre-existent may seem quite innocent but would require in the end a belief quite apart from believing Jesus is the Savior who died on the cross in order to save man. The Christian belief is incompatible with transmigration which is the error one ends up with if believing in the pre-existence of the soul. The ultimate result is the abandonment of Jesus Christ as the last best hope for the chaotic belief in the possibility of once being a house fly and possibility of returning to that condition. No thanks! Jesus and the successors of Peter have a much better answer.
Douay-Rheims
26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. 27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.
Footnote:26 “Let us make man to our image”… This image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with understanding and free will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity.
As I say you can believe what ever gives you hope and your welcome to it. I believe what the Catholic Church teaches and that gives me hope. I examine the historical record, rational thinking and a whole lot of other peoples statements of faith living and dead and they support me in this belief. I have passed through many stages of unbelief and looked at many differing belief systems including the atheist and found them wanting . I have questioned all the teaching of the Catholic Church at one time or another and found that they coincide with the reality I have lived for the past 56 years. I have neither the ability or intelligence to write a book on it but I do know one who has and did. the book is called the City of God newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htmI do not see how a belief in a pre-mortal existance extends to a belief in reincarnation. We are created by God in spirit, that spirit is placed in a tabernacle of flesh, when that flesh lays down the spirit goes to a place of waiting until the resurrection when it is for eternity re-united with the body. This in no way implies that we were once or ever will be a house fly.
Unless… you accept teachings from a person or organization at face value without checking them against the scriptures.
If following the explicit teachings of the Bible removes me from the realm of Christendom then so be it. I see more direct evidence in the scriptures for a pre-existence than for the doctrines of the trinity, original sin, transubstantiation, infant baptism and Marian doctrines combined. And yet you would hold these all to be true based on tradition and the non-canonical writings of church fathers.As I say you can believe what ever gives you hope and your welcome to it. I believe what the Catholic Church teaches and that gives me hope. I examine the historical record, rational thinking and a whole lot of other peoples statements of faith living and dead and they support me in this belief. I have passed through many stages of unbelief and looked at many differing belief systems including the atheist and found them wanting . I have questioned all the teaching of the Catholic Church at one time or another and found that they coincide with the reality I have lived for the past 56 years. I have neither the ability or intelligence to write a book on it but I do know one who has and did. the book is called the City of God newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm
As to a house fly, reason and science show most things follow a domino effect. If you follow the pre-existence of the soul to it’s natural conclusion you conclude that the house fly has a spirit or soul and a body which you have suggested you believe in your previous statement. I am glad you have something to hope in but it is incompatible with Christianity as I have previously stated. Peace.
Well I do not know that it removes you from the realm of Christendom but it is certainly not compatible with The Catholic Christianity I believe. I do not think it is a big issue but it certainly gives me cause to consider what else one must swallow if one first swallows the Pre-existent argument. I believe it was Augustine that said the scripture is unclear about when the soul come to exists. However taken as a whole and considering the origin of the Bible and who is best suited to interpret what the Bible means I think not believing in the pre-existence is the straitest path to follow.If following the explicit teachings of the Bible removes me from the realm of Christendom then so be it. I see more direct evidence in the scriptures for a pre-existence than for the doctrines of the trinity, original sin, transubstantiation, infant baptism and Marian doctrines combined. And yet you would hold these all to be true based on tradition and the non-canonical writings of church fathers.
I too am glad for your relationship with God and I hope you do not take my statements as harsh or demeaning, I simply find it frustrating when people justify their beliefs in an inconsistent manner. If you chose to believe what the Bible teaches, than believe all that it teaches. I agree that not all teachings are in the Bible and there are things we must accept at the word of our church, but somethings are laid out before us with plainess, and to reject those things…
I guess we have to agree to disagree.Well I do not know that it removes you from the realm of Christendom but it is certainly not compatible with The Catholic Christianity I believe. I do not think it is a big issue but it certainly gives me cause to consider what else one must swallow if one first swallows the Pre-existent argument. I believe it was Augustine that said the scripture is unclear about when the soul come to exists. However taken as a whole and considering the origin of the Bible and who is best suited to interpret what the Bible means I think not believing in the pre-existence is the straitest path to follow.
The soul and was created out of nothing.I guess we have to agree to disagree.
Would you say that God created us out of nothing?
All of matter out of nothing?
Wonderful statements, Jeremiah 1:5 is exactly what came to mind.Hmmm.
Jeremiah 1:5 priusquam te formarem in utero novi te et antequam exires de vulva sanctificavi te prophetam gentibus dedi te
Jeremiah 1:5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you came to birth I consecrated you; I appointed you as prophet to the nations.’
- from the Latin Vulgate as translated by Saint Jerome
(I do so love the latin because if you know Latin it is a good thing to compare your translations with modern ones)
This verse would seem to support a pre-existence, HOWEVER - you must rember that we have mysteries because man was not designed to be able to grasp everything is our earthly incarnation.
- from the New Jerusalem Bible
Since God exists outside of, and independent of, time itself he is capable of omnipotent knowledge without impinging on free will. He knows that you are pondering a choice, the choice you will make, and the ramifications that choice will have. All of this because time is a concept that was created for our benefit.
This is why Angels who also exist outside of time have perfect knowledge, such that in a single instant was known their fidelidy to and love for the lord.
Our lack of perfect knowledge allows for us the privledge (purchased at a terrible price by Jesus Christ), to fall and fall again - so long as we exist “in time”. After we have died, we too exist outside of time and also have such perfect knowledge as the lord grants us the capacity for.
As to the other teachings, they are in fact in other writings not included in either the Jewish Cannon even after the Septuagint of 60ad, or the Christian cannon. But they can be found scattered throughout the Talmud and other books of Jewish Mysticism. As someone who has a very intimate knowledge of the Mormon faith, I suspect that he has been listening to a Kabbahlist and not a Mormon.
I would suspect that such a person is not driven for a search for the truth of the Lord God, but rather is driven by a desire to find solace in a soothing mysticism that suppports his worldview.
Much like a divorced Catholic who becomes Lutheran so that he does not have to gaze upon our crucified lord with shame and be brought to tears because he is unable to keep even the simplest of commandments.
More frightening is the person who would use a condom with their spouse the night before, and then unashamedly go through the communion line, as though they simply didn’t have to follow the rules they disliked and they could still live in the light of the lord.
It takes only a small breath to extinguish a candle - are we so tied up in ourselves that we fail to show our gratitude because it is convenient or because we are “modern”.
If modernity means that we have decided that we are in a better position to decide what is best four our immortal souls then please keep it - that is Satan (not God) who teaches one to rationalize - just as he taught Eve in Genesis. But I have digressed.
Maybe, Chist himself should answer these questions - if there is an adoration chapel in the area then you may go to be with him, and receive your answers and the solace you seek 24x7. I like to start with a thank you, and go even when I have need of nothing - to express to the lord my gratitude for his sacrifice, and hope that my feeble attempts to comfort him may be pleasing to him, much like a small child trying diligently to assist a hurt adult.