Do the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books condone magic?

[Esdra]

Hi

I have just recently found this website.

After examining it for I while I got the strong feeling that it is an evangelical site.

Nevertheless I’ve found this page on this website.

And from here I’d like to take a little quote:

1. They were not referenced by Jesus. Jesus directly referenced the entire Jewish canon of Scripture by referring to Abel (the first martyr in the Old Testament) and Zacharias (the last martyr in the OT) (Matt. 23:35). He also never quotes directly from any of the apocryphal writings, but makes numerous references to the Old Testament books.
2. They lacked apostolic1 or prophetic authorship.
3. They did not claim to be the Word of God.
   ** 4. They contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead (2 Macc. 12:45-46) or the condoning of magic (Tobit 6:5-7)**.
4. They have serious historical inaccuracies (For more information, see “Errors in the Apocrypha”).

So, does the book of Tobit really condone magic?

I’ve read through the said verse, but I guess they more mean Tobit 6:1-9:
New American Bible:

Tobit
Chapter 6

1
Then she stopped weeping.
2
When the boy left home, accompanied by the angel, the dog followed Tobiah out of the house and went with them. The travelers walked till nightfall, and made camp beside the Tigris River.
3
Now when the boy went down to wash his feet in the river, a large fish suddenly leaped out of the water and tried to swallow his foot. He shouted in alarm.
4
But the angel said to him, “Take hold of the fish and don’t let it get away!” The boy seized the fish and hauled it up on the shore.
5
1 The angel then told him: “Cut the fish open and take out its gall, heart, and liver, and keep them with you; but throw away the entrails. Its gall, heart, and liver make useful medicines.”
6
After the lad had cut the fish open, he put aside the gall, heart, and liver. Then he broiled and ate part of the fish; the rest he salted and kept for the journey.
7
Afterward they traveled on together till they were near Media. The boy asked the angel this question: “Brother Azariah, what medicinal value is there in the fish’s heart, liver, and gall?”
8
He answered: "As regards the fish’s heart and liver, if you burn them so that the smoke surrounds a man or a woman who is afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, the affliction will leave him completely, and no demons will ever return to him again.
9
And as for the gall, if you rub it on the eyes of a man who has cataracts, blowing into his eyes right on the cataracts, his sight will be restored."

Can you really say that the angel tells Tobit to use magic?

Here is another page about the “errors” of the deuterocanonical Books.

And here I’ve found the following:

False Teachings

1. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see newadvent.org/bible.)

* The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
* Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
* Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43).

What do you in general think of this homepage? (Please examine it first a bit, before answering this question!)

Wow, that became a pretty long post!

Esdra

 

[Barbkw]

Jesus is referenced in (John 10:22-39) attending the Festival of Lights (Hanukkua), which is chronicled in Maccabees I & II.

P.S. I listen to a protestant denomination radio station. The protestant speaker howled with laughter over what he considered was rediculous in Tobit. However, he didn’t bring up any theological problem with Moses winning battles so long as his hands were raised, Moses parting the waters, manna falling from the sky, raised snakes healing people, Elisha’s chariot, etc.

Ya suppose it’s a generational anti-Catholic thing?

 

[Barbkw]

P.S. We silently and patiently put up with their varied and multiple personal interpretations about Revelation .

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Question: How do you differentiate between magic (forbidden) and miracles (not)?

I would say the answer is that magic is attempting to access the supernatural in ways not explicitly condoned by God. Something an Angel tells you to do is condoned by God.

The mere usage of earthly material or performing of ritual is not sufficient to make something magic (forbidden): consider that Christ used mud to heal the blind, that a woman was healed by touching His robe, that the statue of a serpent was used to cure people, that Moses turned a stick into snake and used a staff to bring water from rocks, that one guy was strong as long as his hair was long, the battle of Jericho (7 times around a city with trumpets? what’s up with that?), the person that was revived by landing in a pile of Elias’ bones (I think it was him), the guy who was told to go bathe in a specific river to heal himself, etc.

None of those are called magic. What is it that makes people think that using a fish is magic if using mud is not?

False Teachings

1. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see newadvent.org/bible.)

• The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
• Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
• Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43).

I personally find it amusing that the people who reject that part of scripture because it contains “false teachings” are typically the same people that say that scripture is the only and the perfect source of teachings. I mean, if scripture says to say prayers for the dead then that’s not a false teaching whatever you think. But if that part of the bible is conveniently not scriptural… Sounds kind of like they knew which teachings they wanted to be false before they chose what they called scripture.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The concept of using material objects or places in a sacred manner is called sacramentalism, not magic. Every Christian who attends a church (a sacred place) or reads the Bible (a sacred object) performs this kind of “magic.”

Tobias was told to use the fish guts in much the same way that Jesus used mud (John 6, 9). Let’s seem them condemn Jesus as a sorcerer–wait, didn’t the scribes accuse Him of working His miracles through demons?

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

 

[Barbkw]

The larger issue at play, Tobit had a “guardian angel” assigned to him.

 

[mark_a]

Sounds kind of like they knew which teachings they wanted to be false before they chose what they called scripture.

Good point!

 

[Barbkw]

A whole host of Bishops from across the Mediterranean region - close to the age of the Apostles - research and ponder over and finally solidify the Canon of Scripture.

Around 1,500 years later, one Catholic priest takes it upon himself, to decide that seven books need to be removed from the Canon.

 

[Esdra]

Tobias was told to use the fish guts in much the same way that Jesus used mud (John 6, 9). Let’s seem them condemn Jesus as a sorcerer–wait, didn’t the scribes accuse Him of working His miracles through demons?

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Hi guys,

I think I can see the “problem”: Tobit/Tobias was a simple man, and Jesus was god: He wouldn’t have needed the mud to heal the man.
Tobias, however, as he is NOT god would need the fish guts, and so, (At least this is the only thing how I can explain that Tobias was told to do magic…), the guts are needed…

So Jesus was healing because he was (and is) god, but Tobias being a mere man did magic.

I listen to a protestant denomination radio station. The protestant speaker howled with laughter over what he considered was rediculous in Tobit. However, he didn’t bring up any theological problem with Moses winning battles so long as his hands were raised, Moses parting the waters, manna falling from the sky, raised snakes healing people, Elisha’s chariot, etc.

Well, moses was told by god and God’s power flew through him, therefore he could do such things.
And Elisha was a Prophet, and I think that is the reason why he could do miracles. He was a chosen one of god and also his power (You could call it the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of God) flew through him.

Tobit was neither of the things above…
His companion was an angel - and angels are only sent by god as messanger.
So, to conclude, you could really say the the Arkangel Raphael commanded Tobit to use magic to heal his father…
I also guess that God’s Spirit was not in Tobit, nor did he (of course) know Jesus to do miracles…

Ya suppose it’s a generational anti-Catholic thing?

Don’t know.
This website also deals with “real apocrypha” (meaning that they are also in the eyes of Catholics such)…

Esdra

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi guys,

I think I can see the “problem”: Tobit/Tobias was a simple man, and Jesus was god: He wouldn’t have needed the mud to heal the man.

Jesus chose to use the mud. Tobias was told to use the fish by an angel who was of course conveying the words of God. The fish was a type of Christ and so this encounter was a type of Mary’s encounter with Gabriel. Notice the Jesus fishes on all the cars next time you drive around; is there anywhere else in the Bible that Jesus is compared to a fish?

 

[Esdra]

Jesus chose to use the mud. Tobias was told to use the fish by an angel who was of course conveying the words of God. The fish was a type of Christ and so this encounter was a type of Mary’s encounter with Gabriel. Notice the Jesus fishes on all the cars next time you drive around; is there anywhere else in the Bible that Jesus is compared to a fish?

ohohoh, i can answer that!

I have learned a little bit ancient greek in my studies
and Jesus is often symbolized as a fish because it’s an anagramm used be the First Christians:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
**
I** sus
CH ristos
T heos
Y Hyiós (in Ancient Greek there is no letter for “H”; it’s always symbolized by a ')
S oter

=

in English:

Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.

By the way: The fish on the car is a rather new trend here in Austria (but usually among non-Catholics, normally Baptists, or Pentecostals.)! [Otherwise I wouldn’t have known what you are referring to. ]

Well, the New Testament is “full of fish”. Think about it.

Esdra

 

[Cat_Herder]

ohohoh, i can answer that!

I have learned a little bit ancient greek in my studies
and Jesus is often symbolized as a fish because it’s an anagramm used be the First Christians:

… Which is not in the Bible unless Tobit is. So you don’t hold to sola Scriptura?

 

[Esdra]

mhm, don’t really know.

You see, I am neither a Catholic who believes in the whole ST and the SS, nor a real reborn, believing in only the SS (sola scriptura)

I guess, I am pretty much a free thinker. (Probably that’s from my dad, he has influenced me a lot concerning Christianity and religion, and he always has been a free thinker as well )

esdra

 

[Esdra]

… But we are carried away from my OP!

Any other comments on this website mentioned in the OP?
Or to Tobias and the Angel telling him to do magic?

Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

So, does the book of Tobit really condone magic?

I’ve read through the said verse, but I guess they more mean Tobit 6:1-9:

JL: Did Jesus condone magic when he took clay and spit to heal?

 

[Esdra]

JL: Did Jesus condone magic when he took clay and spit to heal?

Please read what I’ve written in post #9 concerning that.

 

[Publisher]

The book is pious fiction written around the 2nd century BCE…it relates the story of a Tobias who lived in 8th century BCE and relates a story of piety in a post Ezran time of the second Temple…it is not history…it is fiction…it has to do with piety…not magic…piety was a great concern during Ezra’s time…especially after the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple.

 

[Esdra]

The book is pious fiction written around the 2nd century BCE…it relates the story of a Tobias who lived in 8th century BCE and relates a story of piety in a post Ezran time of the second Temple…it is not history…it is fiction…it has to do with piety…not magic…piety was a great concern during Ezra’s time…especially after the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple.

Hi my dear friend publisher,

nice to read from you something in one of my threads!

Thank you for this interesting insight.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

The book is pious fiction written around the 2nd century BCE…it relates the story of a Tobias who lived in 8th century BCE and relates a story of piety in a post Ezran time of the second Temple…it is not history…it is fiction…it has to do with piety…not magic…piety was a great concern during Ezra’s time…especially after the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple.

And what do you think of the deuteros/apocrypha?

And what do you think of how the deuteros are presented on the website in the OP?

Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder
Tobias was told to use the fish guts in much the same way that Jesus used mud (John 6, 9). Let’s seem them condemn Jesus as a sorcerer–wait, didn’t the scribes accuse Him of working His miracles through demons? There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Hi guys,
I think I can see the “problem”: Tobit/Tobias was a simple man, and Jesus was god: He wouldn’t have needed the mud to heal the man.
Tobias, however, as he is NOT god would need the fish guts, and so, (At least this is the only thing how I can explain that Tobias was told to do magic…), the guts are needed…
So Jesus was healing because he was (and is) god, but Tobias being a mere man did magic.

JL: The implication here is that fish guts are really magic, and magic works. Tobias couldn’t have healed anyone using anything, unless God acted. Of course God wouldn’t need the mud or anything else. Yet the clear fact remains Christ USED MATERIAL objects to bring about God’s grace or actions. Tobias being a mere man did nothing except what a messenger of God told him and God acted, just as God acted thru the mud.

Originally Posted by Barbkw
I listen to a protestant denomination radio station. The protestant speaker howled with laughter over what he considered was rediculous in Tobit. However, he didn’t bring up any theological problem with Moses winning battles so long as his hands were raised, Moses parting the waters, manna falling from the sky, raised snakes healing people, Elisha’s chariot, etc.

Well, moses was told by god and God’s power flew through him, therefore he could do such things.
And Elisha was a Prophet, and I think that is the reason why he could do miracles. He was a chosen one of god and also his power (You could call it the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of God) flew through him.
Tobit was neither of the things above…

JL: Well an angel of God told Tobias. None of the above did anything, on their own, apart from God’s action thru them or thru a material object they were instructed to use.

His companion was an angel - and angels are only sent by god as messanger. So, to conclude, you could really say the the Arkangel Raphael commanded Tobit to use magic to heal his father…

I also guess that God’s Spirit was not in Tobit, nor did he (of course) know Jesus to do miracles…

JL: Again the implication, in your remarks, is magic works. Tobit was given a message by an angel of God as what to do. Tobit trusted God by doing as the angel of God told him and God acted.

Just as God acted and healed the Gentile General Naaman, when Naaman trusted God doing as the messenger of the prophet Elisha told him. When Naaman came to the house of the prophet Elisha. Elisha sent his servant out to tell Naaman to bath seven times in the Jordan River. Naaman went away angry, he expected Elisah himself to do something. Saying, to his servant, are not the rivers of Damascus better. Naaman started to return to his country. Naaman’s servant asked him, had you been told to do something difficule would you not have done so? Long story short Naaman did as the messenger told him and he was healed. Elisha did nothing, but send his servant, to deliver the message and God acted, because Naaman trusted and did something he found ridiculous. 2Kngs5:1-27.

Does the Jordan have some magic quality other rivers don’t have? No. Would Naaman have been healed had he bathed in another river? No, because he would not have trusted and been obedient to God, by listening and following the instructions of the one SENT by God to help him.