Do the Oriental Orthodox have a primate who is "first among equals"?

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Brandon_Cal

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If so, who would that be? The Pope of Alexandria? How does the ranking of bishops follow in Oriental Orthodoxy, assuming it’s anything like Eastern Orthodoxy?
 
wynd said:
That’s for the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox is a different communion of churches.
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No kidding. Who’d a thunk it.

I wonder how they get around that one in languages that have only a single word for both “eastern” and “oriental”.
 
Brandon_Cal said:
If so, who would that be? The Pope of Alexandria? How does the ranking of bishops follow in Oriental Orthodoxy, assuming it’s anything like Eastern Orthodoxy?
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Yes. They do. As do all Christians with Apostolic succession. Some just don’t acknowledge him. Currently, it Francis. 😉
 
Quick internet search doesn’t say, but it does mention who they’re in communion with. From Wikipedia (for what it’s worth):

The Oriental Orthodox communion is a group of churches within Oriental Orthodoxy which are all in full communion with each other. The communion comprises:
  • Armenian Apostolic Church
  • Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin
  • Holy See of Cilicia
  • Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople
  • Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem
  • Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
  • British Orthodox Church
  • French Coptic Orthodox Church
  • Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church
  • Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
  • Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
  • Brahmavar (Goan) Orthodox Church
  • Syriac Orthodox Church
  • Jacobite Syrian Christian Church
  • Armenian Apostolic Church
  • Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin
  • Holy See of Cilicia
  • Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople
  • Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem
  • Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
  • British Orthodox Church
  • French Coptic Orthodox Church
  • Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church
  • Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
  • Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
  • Brahmavar (Goan) Orthodox Church
  • Syriac Orthodox Church
  • Jacobite Syrian Christian Church
 
I don’t know the answer to this question with certainty, but there are Oriental Orthodox patriarchs in both Antioch (Patriarch Ignatius Aphrem II) and Alexandria (Pope Tawadros II), both of which are Sees of Apostolic origin. I would presume that one of these two is held first among the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, but I could be wrong.
 
BartholomewB said:
No kidding. Who’d a thunk it.

I wonder how they get around that one in languages that have only a single word for both “eastern” and “oriental”.
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Right. And they split at different times from Catholicism. As you know, the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church split in the 11th century (the Eastern Orthodox believes that the Catholic Church left them, while the Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox left us - what happened was more like a very ugly divorce which had its roots much earlier in time).

The so-called Oriental Orthodox is a group of churches that broke away much earlier - after the Council of Chalcedon, which condemned the monophysite heresy. The Antiochan and Alexandrian patriarchs refused to accept the findings of the council, which they believed created the dogma of Jesus having both a fully human will and a Divine Will out of whole cloth. After their refusal to accept the findings of the council, both patriarchs were excommunicated by the patriarchs of both Rome (the Pope) and Constantinople - along with all bishops and flocks who aligned with them.
 
Um…I make it a rule never to get involved in Catholic/Orthodox debates or discussions, so pardon my complete ignorance…
Did you mean to say ‘prelate’ or what you have in the thread title?
…cause I have this image in my mind…
:eek:
 
There is only one bishop that is recognized " as first among equals" world wide which is Peter the bishop of Rome.

Due to the Schism, the East and or Oriental Church’s not in communion with the bishop of Rome do not have a head that unites each one to each other, thus they are “autocephalous” Church’s in the plural, which all these apostolic successors are all equal to each other.

This does not discount, the federation of Church’s who are in communion with one another. Yet these Church’s throughout history are known to fall in and out of communion with each other.

In short; Those bishop’s out of communion with the bishop of Rome, have no head or first among equals. They are autocephalous Church’s’ in the plural.
 
JustaServant said:
Um…I make it a rule never to get involved in Catholic/Orthodox debates or discussions, so pardon my complete ignorance…
Did you mean to say ‘prelate’ or what you have in the thread title?
…cause I have this image in my mind…
:eek:
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No, a primate is the bishop of a primatial see.
 
powerofk said:
Right. And they split at different times from Catholicism. As you know, the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church split in the 11th century (the Eastern Orthodox believes that the Catholic Church left them, while the Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox left us - what happened was more like a very ugly divorce which had its roots much earlier in time).

The so-called Oriental Orthodox is a group of churches that broke away much earlier - after the Council of Chalcedon, which condemned the monophysite heresy. The Antiochan and Alexandrian patriarchs refused to accept the findings of the council, which they believed created the dogma of Jesus having both a fully human will and a Divine Will out of whole cloth. After their refusal to accept the findings of the council, both patriarchs were excommunicated by the patriarchs of both Rome (the Pope) and Constantinople - along with all bishops and flocks who aligned with them.
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Thank you for that historical information, which I am (mildly) embarrassed to admit is all completely new to me, even though I have known personally, and been on friendly terms with, people from a Syrian/Lebanese Orthodox family background. I suppose theology was a subject that never happened to crop up in the course of conversation.

I have filed your helpful note away for future reference.

Regards
Bart
 
The Heads of each Church are equal but in a room with all of them present, the Patriarch of Alexandria takes precedence, followed by the Patriarch of Antioch, and then the Armenian Catholicos-Patriarch of Etchmiadzin.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
There is only one bishop that is recognized " as first among equals" world wide which is Peter the bishop of Rome.

Due to the Schism, the East and or Oriental Church’s not in communion with the bishop of Rome do not have a head that unites each one to each other, thus they are “autocephalous” Church’s in the plural, which all these apostolic successors are all equal to each other.

This does not discount, the federation of Church’s who are in communion with one another. Yet these Church’s throughout history are known to fall in and out of communion with each other.

In short; Those bishop’s out of communion with the bishop of Rome, have no head or first among equals. They are autocephalous Church’s’ in the plural.
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Actually, they are a church singular, made up of sub churches , that’s why they are named the Orthodox Catholic Church not Churches , they believe the bishop of Constantinople is first among equals.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
Actually, they are a church singular, made up of sub churches , that’s why they are named the Orthodox Catholic Church not Churches , they believe the bishop of Constantinople is first among equals.
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You are referring to the Eastern Orthodox here, the thread is regarding the Oriental Churches.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
Actually, they are a church singular, made up of sub churches , that’s why they are named the Orthodox Catholic Church not Churches , they believe the bishop of Constantinople is first among equals.
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You would have to ask those autocephalous Church’s? and then depending at which time you ask them whether or not an autocephalous church is or not in full communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Even then, these bishop’s know to which title “first among equals” is referencing Peter the bishop of Rome from antiquity.

The Orthodox Church’s are given their name “Orthodox”, by the Pope and an early Church council to distinguish them from their sister Church’s who were found to be teaching error or heterodox. Although in the present time I noticed these Eastern heterodox Church’s have adopted the title “orthodox” to their name.

In this respect, your analogy falls apart. The true Orthodox Church’s plural, pride themselves in their autocephalous status quo. You would be hard pressed to convince one that a bishop of Constantinople has authority over their local Church’s. Hence the Orthodox are not one Church but a federation of Church’s plural that are not under one bishop or first among equals.

Unless, a particular primate is selected by their bishops and raise him to oversee a synod or council. In this temporary state, a first among equals does not carry with it the same weight as the first among equals given to the bishop of Rome.
 
SyroMalankara said:
You are referring to the Eastern Orthodox here, the thread is regarding the Oriental Churches.
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Sorry about that 😛
anyway the Oriental Orthodox first among equals would be the pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Keep the faith SyroMalankara , Starwars 🙂
 
BartholomewB said:
No kidding. Who’d a thunk it.

I wonder how they get around that one in languages that have only a single word for both “eastern” and “oriental”.
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I asked this before given that ‘oriental’ in Spanish means ‘eastern’. I can’t find the old thread anymore, but the consensus was that, at least in Spanish, one would say ‘Antiguas Iglesias orientales’ for the Oriental Orthodox, and ‘Iglesia ortodoxa’ for the Byzantine Orthodox.
SyroMalankara said:
The Heads of each Church are equal but in a room with all of them present, the Patriarch of Alexandria takes precedence, followed by the Patriarch of Antioch, and then the Armenian Catholicos-Patriarch of Etchmiadzin.
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This is what I was looking for! Thanks. 🙂
 
Brandon_Cal said:
I asked this before given that ‘oriental’ in Spanish means ‘eastern’. I can’t find the old thread anymore, but the consensus was that, at least in Spanish, one would say ‘Antiguas Iglesias orientales’ for the Oriental Orthodox, and ‘Iglesia ortodoxa’ for the Byzantine Orthodox.
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The full name of the South American nation of Uruguay is República Oriental del Uruguay, because it is located on the east bank of the Uruguay River. The west bank still belongs to Argentina, from which Uruguay separated in the 1820s.
Does anyone get on a plane to Uruguay expecting to land somewhere in the Orient? I don’t think so.
 
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