Do the Orthodox Even Want Reunification?

[Ferde_Rombola]

Thanks once again to Formosus for historical accuracy and a very well-reasoned response. It is evident that both the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church did not consider an absolute “supreme primacy” to be present in the person of St. Peter, before or after the Crucifixion.

Your congratulations to Formosus for historical accuracy begs the question and I disagree with you. As to the Apostles, Scripture also disagrees with you. Peter did not write about himself. What was said of him was written by others – Apostles. Peter is mentioned by name over twice as often as the rest of the Apostles combined. It is always Peter who speaks for the group, clear recognition he was considered by the others to be their leader. It is Peter upon whom the Lord said He will build His Church and no amount of protestant revisionism will change that. It is Peter and only Peter to whom the Lord gave the keys to the kingdom. It is to Peter the Lord FIRST gave authority to bind and loose. It is Peter who is first out the door on the Day of Pentecost and it is Peter who is first to preach the Gospel message. The position of the ECFs is on the record. You deny it, which is what protestants also do.

As to Formosus’ ‘well reasoned response,’ he accused me of something I didn’t do and in the process did what he said I did; post an ad hom message directed at me.

Go to Ukraine sometime (same ethnicity, three separate Orthodox jurisdictions). Two of the Orthodox churches have been declared “without grace” by Moscow. If they shared the same faith, how could they be “without grace”? Ask a Greek Old Calendarist if he considers his faith the same as the Greek Archdiocese of Athens, or a Russian Old Believer if his is the same as the post-Nikonian Moscow Patriarchate.

So much for Orthodox unity. You are not even unified on this message board.

 

[spn82756]

As Palamas says, we are all united by our common holy, catholic and apostolic faith. We can commune in any canonical Orthodox Church.

When I was RC, I remember that the Irish would only attend the Irish Catholic Church, the Italian would only attend the local Roman Catholic Church, the Polish would never go anywhere but the Polish Church, the Ukrainians would never attened a Ruthenian Church etc., etc., etc.

But isn’t that just a cultural thing. Where I live there are people that belong to parishes with a predominance of their ansestory. A Sunday Mass may be offered in Portuguese or French or other language.

 

[Mickey]

But isn’t that just a cultural thing. Where I live there are people that belong to parishes with a predominance of their ansestory. A Sunday Mass may be offered in Portuguese or French or other language.

My point is: we are united by our common faith.

 

[spn82756]

My point is: we are united by our common faith.

So are the Catholics that attend parishes that reflect their ethnic background. It’s merely a matter of a community of their culture. So they are all united in the same faith and beliefs. I just don’t think that was a good comparison.

 

[Aramis]

My point is: we are united by our common faith.

But even that is really a bit exaggerated, as a history of the various national shows. The internecine politics of the EO Communion show quite strongly that unity of faith alone does not hold all EOC member churches in full communion with all EOC member churches.

 

[malphono]

As Palamas says, we are all united by our common holy, catholic and apostolic faith. We can commune in any canonical Orthodox Church.

When I was RC, I remember that the Irish would only attend the Irish Catholic Church, the Italian would only attend the local Roman Catholic Church, the Polish would never go anywhere but the Polish Church, the Ukrainians would never attened a Ruthenian Church etc., etc., etc.

Now really … it’s all the same thing.

People may “cross over” from time to time for a particular reason, but let’s take a place where there are multiple Orthodox communities: how often does it happen that people regularly flock from one to other? For example, since when do Greek Orthodox faithful flock en masse to the local Russian Orthodox church? Or even within the same subset: where there are churches of multiple jurisdictions, how often do throngs of faithful regularly flock from the church of, e.g., one Russian jurisdiction to the church of another?

 

[Madaglan]

Now really … it’s all the same thing.

People may “cross over” from time to time for a particular reason, but let’s take a place where there are multiple Orthodox communities: how often does it happen that people regularly flock from one to other? For example, since when do Greek Orthodox faithful flock en masse to the local Russian Orthodox church? Or even within the same subset: where there are churches of multiple jurisdictions, how often do throngs of faithful regularly flock from the church of, e.g., one Russian jurisdiction to the church of another?

Why would or should Greek Orthodox faithful flock en masse to the local Russian Orthodox church?

If you look at many of the older Croatian, Hungarian and Polish Catholic churches, you’ll likely find that these people don’t flock to different churches either–unless their church is closed.

The last church I attended was multi-ethnic, and the Our Father was said in at least eight different languages during the Liturgy.

 

[Diak]

So much for Orthodox unity. You are not even unified on this message board.

Been over to the Traditional Catholicism forum lately? You’ve got to be kidding with that comment, right?

The position of the ECFs is on the record. You deny it, which is what protestants also do.

There you go with the ad hominem attacks again. Are you capable of conducting civil dialogue without personal attacks and untrue and uncharitable statements? What exactly have I denied??? Last time I checked with my bishop, I was still in good standing as a Ukrainian Greek Catholic and I am most certainly not a protestant.

Your congratulations to Formosus for historical accuracy begs the question and I disagree with you. As to the Apostles, Scripture also disagrees with you. Peter did not write about himself. What was said of him was written by others – Apostles.

You apparently didn’t read my statement. I did not deny primacy as a concept, but " absolute ‘supreme primacy’ to be present in the person of St. Peter, before or after the Crucifixion" in my own words. Since you feel the need to rely on Scripture, please read Acts 15 or Galatians 2 ("…I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong").
in relation to my comment. In a “supreme primacy” Peter would never have been questioned nor any dispute arisen if it was really understood in that way.

 

[spn82756]

Been over to the Traditional Catholicism forum lately? You’ve got to be kidding with that comment, right?

There you go with the ad hominem attacks again. Are you capable of conducting civil dialogue without personal attacks and untrue and uncharitable statements? What exactly have I denied??? Last time I checked with my bishop, I was still in good standing as a Ukrainian Greek Catholic and I am most certainly not a protestant.

You apparently didn’t read my statement. I did not deny primacy as a concept, but " absolute ‘supreme primacy’ to be present in the person of St. Peter, before or after the Crucifixion" in my own words. Since you feel the need to rely on Scripture, please read Acts 15 in relation to my comment. In a “supreme primacy” Peter would never have been questioned nor any dispute arisen if it was really understood in that way.

If primacy means first in rank…what is supreme primacy?

 

[malphono]

malphono:

Mickey:

As Palamas says, we are all united by our common holy, catholic and apostolic faith. We can commune in any canonical Orthodox Church.

When I was RC, I remember that the Irish would only attend the Irish Catholic Church, the Italian would only attend the local Roman Catholic Church, the Polish would never go anywhere but the Polish Church, the Ukrainians would never attened a Ruthenian Church etc., etc., etc.

Now really … it’s all the same thing.

People may “cross over” from time to time for a particular reason, but let’s take a place where there are multiple Orthodox communities: how often does it happen that people regularly flock from one to other? For example, since when do Greek Orthodox faithful flock en masse to the local Russian Orthodox church? Or even within the same subset: where there are churches of multiple jurisdictions, how often do throngs of faithful regularly flock from the church of, e.g., one Russian jurisdiction to the church of another?Why would Greek Orthodox faithful flock en masse to the local Russian Orthodox church?

They wouldn’t; that’s the point. They can “cross over” but normally do not. Just as Roman Rite Italians might prefer an Italian-oriented parish, or Germans a German-oriented parish, etc. They can go to another parish but normally do not.

 

[Diak]

The notion that Peter from the granting of “the keys” enjoyed a supreme monarchial leadership role consistent with the post-medieval development in the West of the personal power, privalges and perogatives ascribed to the Pope. At the Council of Jersualem he was an arbiter, not a dictator.

 

[malphono]

If primacy means first in rank…what is supreme primacy?

A while back there was [thread=349702]thread[/thread] in this forum where the three Petrine views were discussed at some length. In case you haven’t already seen it, it might be worth a look. You’ll have to sift through the chaff, but there’s some good stuff in there.

 

[Mickey]

But even that is really a bit exaggerated

That’s not exaggerated.

 

[Mickey]

People may “cross over” from time to time for a particular reason, but let’s take a place where there are multiple Orthodox communities: how often does it happen that people regularly flock from one to other?

That was my point.

 

[spn82756]

The notion that Peter from the granting of “the keys” enjoyed a supreme monarchial leadership role consistent with the post-medieval development in the West of the personal power, privalges and perogatives ascribed to the Pope. At the Council of Jersualem he was an arbiter, not a dictator.

I think the term dictator is rather inappropriate. If individual bishops make decisions for their diocese…then they could be considered dictators. But we know they are guided by the Holy Spirit.

I’m not trying to argue. I have great respect for the Orthodox Church. I’m am saddened by the division. And I don’t see how it can ever be overcome…except through the Holy Spirit. I’m tired of the “your wrong…your wrong” arguments from both sides.

 

[malphono]

That was my point.

That’s not at all how it came across.

 

[Mickey]

That’s not at all how it came across.

 

[spn82756]

A while back there was [thread=349702]thread[/thread] in this forum where the three Petrine views were discussed at some length. In case you haven’t already seen it, it might be worth a look. You’ll have to sift through the chaff, but there’s some good stuff in there.

No…I haven’t seen it…but will go through it. Like I said a previous post. We are never going to settle this on this forum. We just keep posting the same things over and over. I believe that Pope JP II wanted to get beyond some of this stuff. I don’t know as though we can. It’s sad. I am interested in attending Divine Liturgy at a Greek Orthodox Church in Fall River because of my respect for the Orthodox Church. But I feel as though I would be a second class citizen. An Orthodox person is open to the Eucharist in a Catholic Church. I am not in an Orthodox Church.

And BTW…no…Orthodox are not protestant as someone tried to claim. We all believe in the sacraments as part of salvation.

 

[Mickey]

But I feel as though I would be a second class citizen.

Why?

 

[spn82756]

Why?

Because I would not be welcome to receive the Eucharist.