Do the Orthodox Even Want Reunification?

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Ignatios said:
By this standard, the same applies to your church since there is also some Catholic churches that they still follow the old Calendar as well, not to mention the RCC in Antioch celebrate Pascha( Easter) according to the the Julian Calendar also the Catholics in Jordan and some Melkite in Lebanon and Syria etc…
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And lets not forget that some Catholics, such as the Melkites, believe that every council after the Seventh Ecumenical Council was only a local council for the Latin Church and not ecumenical. Some Latin Catholics also reject the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass.

The Catholic Church is not a homogeneous as some might think. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Cecilianus said:
Can you give an example of antipathy Catholics have towards Orthodox?
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OOO I can give much more than that antipathy, how about a geneocide against the Orthodox Serbs in Croatia have you ever heard of it the croatians claimed that they killed 1 million Orthodox Serbs, but the Germans said that this is not true they only killed 700000 soul, how about the last war in croatia did you read about it, I will not get into the involvement of the Vatican and the money that they still hold that it it is belong to the Serbians… that was just one, if you need to knwo more let me know
We have all been taught to love Orthodoxy and desire the return of the Orthodox to the bosom of the Church.
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Orthodoxy is the bosom of the Holy Church of GOD.
But I’ve seen and read plenty of antipathy on the part of the Orthodox to Catholics. I once even tried to express interest in Orthodoxy hoping that they would try to convert me - just because I wanted to know more about - but they acted too disdainful to even care about converting me enough to explain their practices to me.
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And I can tell you more stories about RCs who came to the Orthodox Faith, and they were looked at as lost brethren who came back to their own home, simply because that’s how they felt, starting from our own Priest who was a Franciscan Monk for 11 years down to half of the families in our Church they were all RCs, GOD bless them they are better Orthodox than I can ever be.
The most I got was being called a “schismatic” without any explanation as to where the visible Church is that I’m in schism from. (All I see are a group of particular Churches: Greek Orthodox, up to three or four Russian Orthodox, three Ukrainian Orthodox, and dozens of separate Orthodox churches which use the Julian calendar, and dozens more sects of “Old Believers”.)
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why is it so strange when you people have a multiple churches that are under different bishoprics in the same town, and in many countries. and as I said before you also have Catholics who follow the Julian calendar. and what about the Liberal catholics and the charismatics catholics and the traditionalists Catholics and the homosexual Catholics and the feminists catholics etc…
And the only book I got recommended to me was Timothy Ware’s “The Orthodox Church”, which is so nauseatingly anti-Catholic that I’m not sure whether they meant it as anything more than a personal insult. Other Orthodox books that I’ve read all seem to have an irrationally obsessive hatred for Western Christianity - but aside from a little bit of superciliousness on the part of Fr. Fortescue, I’ve never read a disrespectful word from Catholics towards the Orthodox.
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If you considered Timothy Ware to be anti-catholic, then I think you should stay where you are, because this is not a sign of someone who is searching except for a criticism of the Orthodox Church.
 
Cecilianus said:
I was told by the Serbian Orthodox that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is an apostate. And then you’ve got the Old Believers, the three rival Ukrainian Orthodox churches, the different approaches to Catholic sacraments (some accept them, most regard them as invalid), the quarrel between Constantinople and Moscow over jurisdiction in places like Estonia, the ROCOR/Russian Orthodox schism, the arguments over the Toll Houses, the “non-canonical” Orthodox (who have just as much right as far as I can tell to ordain their own bishops and create autocephalous churches as any other) and Old Believers (who sure look Orthodox to me, and who have just as much right as far as I can tell - without a supreme authority to arbiter - to reject the Orthodox as heretics as the Orthodox did to reject the Catholics), etc.
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And I was told by quite a few RCs that the Pope is messing up the RCC when he prays with Muslims and that he lies when he says that Islam has many common things with Christianity, :eek: “fallible”? you must understand that we do not hold on to what each may say or think in his own capacity.

the jurisdictional Issues I see it to be a natural development after the fall of the USSR, as a matter of fact, many countries emerged that it was one nation at one time such as the Ukraine and Russia this was at one time called the Kiev-rus, and what is going on now is the birth, a pain in the beginning BUT the HEAD of the Orthodox Church never failed us for 2000 years so we know for sure HE will never fails now, the Birth period will pass and the growth will come, and then Russian and the Ukrainian would be at peace again as they were in the very start. there no magic here things just take time.
what about the Old catholic believers, what about the all the ones that I mentioned to you before etc… look this kind of talk is at elementary level, Be sure that I can sit over here and give you a list of the things that it is wrong in your church that it would take you days to go through it, and at the end I would have made a worse man out of you and your obvious hatred to the Orthodox would multiply by 1000s folds, BUT then what?..

GOD bless you all †††
 
\ We have all been taught to love Orthodoxy and desire the return of the Orthodox to the bosom of the Church.\

** In other words, “Be reasonable. Do things our way and simply submit.”

This is precisely the triumphalist attitude that impedes reconciliation.**
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Never heard of them. I was talking about the SSPX and the various sedevacantist groups, not to mention the Old Catholics.

Yours in Christ
Joe
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How are the SSPX different than the various Orthodox? They’re schismatics. Are the SSPX in communion with the Old Catholics claiming that they are the Church?
 
1holycatholic said:
Are the sui iuris Catholic Churches out of communion and pointing fingers at each other claiming heresy? :dts:
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Well if the Melkites believe that the First Vatican Council was not ecumenical and the Latins believe it was that seems like a pretty serious disagreement, no?

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
bpbasilphx said:
\ We have all been taught to love Orthodoxy and desire the return of the Orthodox to the bosom of the Church.\

** In other words, “Be reasonable. Do things our way and simply submit.”

This is precisely the triumphalist attitude that impedes reconciliation.**
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It’s regrettable that the various Orthodox dismiss the primacy of the pope which they previously embraced.
 
1holycatholic said:
How are the SSPX different than the various Orthodox? They’re schismatics. Are the SSPX in communion with the Old Catholics claiming that they are the Church?
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I don’t know who they are in communion with and I don’t care. Another poster referenced the Old Believers and the various old calendarist groups as evidence of disunity among the Orthodox. My point is they are in no different a position in regards to canonical Orthodoxy than the Old Catholics and SSPX are in regards to the Catholic Communion. 👍

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
1holycatholic said:
It’s regrettable that the various Orthodox dismiss the primacy of the pope which they previously embraced.
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Its regrettable that the various Catholics dismiss the Holy Tradition and teachings of the Fathers that they previously embraced. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Well if the Melkites believe that the First Vatican Council was not ecumenical and the Latins believe it was that seems like a pretty serious disagreement, no?
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Why ask in the form of a “loaded question?”
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Its regrettable that the various Catholics dismiss the Holy Tradition and teachings of the Fathers that they previously embraced. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
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Like their opposition to divorce and remarriage as Christ taught unequivocally, but which various Orthodox now endorse?
 
1holycatholic said:
Like their opposition to divorce and remarriage as Christ taught unequivocally, but which various Orthodox now endorse?
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Just like the Catholic Church endorsed for centuries while we were still in communion? It was permitted in the East for centuries. If it was such an issue why did Rome persist in communion with such rank heretics for so long? So much for the infallibility of the Pope huh? 👍

Not to mention the Catholic Church allows it even today, see the Petrine and Pauline privileges. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
1holycatholic said:
I’m sure you’ll be able to post the Church Council documents stating as such. http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/ear.gif
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St Basil the Great concerning the canons.

IV: In the case of trigamy and polygamy they laid down the same rule, in proportion, as in the case of digamy; namely one year for digamy (some authorities say two years); for trigamy men are separated for three and often for four years; but this is no longer described as marriage at all, but as polygamy; nay rather as limited fornication. It is for this reason that the Lord said to the woman of Samaria, who had five husbands, “he whom thou now hast is not your husband.” He does not reckon those who had exceeded the limits of a second marriage as worthy of the title of husband or wife. In cases of trigamy we have accepted a seclusion of five years, not by the canons, but following the precept of our predecessors. Such offenders ought not to be altogether prohibited from the privileges of the Church; they should be considered deserving of hearing after two or three years, and afterwards of being permitted to stand in their place; but they must be kept from the communion of the good gift, and only restored to the place of communion after showing some fruit of repentance.

Here is a link.

newadvent.org/fathers/3202188.htm

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
I don’t have time at the moment (though I wish I did) to quote and respond to all the individual posts since I last checked this forum a few hours ago, so here are some generalized remarks on the Orthodox arguments:
  1. A Catholic is someone in communion with and under the authority of the Pope. Groups like the Old Catholics and Womenpriests and “homosexual Catholics” and “feminist Catholics” are not Catholics, pure and simple.
  2. There is no Pope in Orthodoxy; unlike the SSPX and the Old Catholics, the Old Calendarists, Old Believers, and non-canonical Orthodox are not removing themselves from communion with any visible sign of unity, and the question still remains - where is the Orthodox Church, since the different Orthodox groups are still bickering? Basil, regarding “triumphalism”, the Church subsists in the Catholic Church with the Vicar of Christ as its head, and those members of the body separated from the head are gravely wounded. It is not “triumphalism” but rather love that desires their return.
  3. Melkites are bound to acknowledge the authority of all the Ecumenical Councils, including Vatican I, no less than other Christians. All the Melkites I know are perfectly orthodox Catholics, though I am perfectly aware of the historical tendency within the Melkite hierarchy towards reluctance on these doctrines.
  4. Joseph Daniel, divorce was not permitted in the East in the early days; remarriage after the death of one’s spouse was not even permitted, and a major cause of discord between the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople was the Pope’s acknowledgement of the Emperor’s multiple marriages. And yes, it is regrettable that Catholics have apparently rejected the traditions of the Holy Fathers and the Council of Trent, though you will not find any heresy explicitly taught by Vatican II.
  5. Ignatios, jurisdictional issues have been a problem within the Eastern Church continuously since 1054, and even before them when Constantinople and Rome were bickering. After 1054 came a movement towards autocephaly, which was always opposed by Constantinople, largely because the nationalists who wanted independence from Constantinople were sympathetic to Rome. (St. George the Hagiorite, who defended the inerrancy of the Papal see and the necessity of communion with it to the emperor’s face in 1054 in the presence of Cerularius, led the push for the independence of the Church of Georgia; St. Sava of Serbia requested a Papal emissary to crown his brother king, rather than an emissary of the Ecumenical Patriarch.)
And I do not have a hatred of the Orthodox and the richness of their spirituality - only of their own hatred towards Catholicism and Western Christianity. I would love nothing more than to be able to receive communion at the same altar as you.
 
And bringing up Old Calendarist Catholics is not a cogent comparison, because there is no schism within the Catholic Church between the those who use the Julian Calendar and those who use the Gregorian. Nobody is claiming that the rest of the Catholic Church has committed apostasy by letting the Pope correct a calendar originally devised by pagan priests using insufficient data. There are two calendars that are in use, and we accept each other’s practices. Same with the Russian Catholics who follow the Old Believers’ rites and those who follow the Orthodox ones - and the Latins who follow the Ambrosian Rite and those who use the Tridentine, and those who use the Novus Ordo, and those who use the Anglican Use. We may argue about which is better or more appropriate, but only the SSPX - who were excommunicated until their excommunications were lifted and who still have no jurisdiction, which now puts them canonically in the same place as the Orthodox regarding their relations to the Pope - deny the validity of the Novus Ordo. I do not deny its validity either; just don’t make me suffer through one.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Just like the Catholic Church endorsed for centuries while we were still in communion? It was permitted in the East for centuries. If it was such an issue why did Rome persist in communion with such rank heretics for so long? So much for the infallibility of the Pope huh? 👍

Not to mention the Catholic Church allows it even today, see the Petrine and Pauline privileges. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
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Citing Petrine and Pauline privilege as akin to divorce shows gross negligence of both.

What exactly within either of those mentioned Papal privileges allows for Ecclesiastical Divorce within a Sacramental valid marriage?
 
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