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prodromos
Guest
Crowns in iconography can indicate martyrdom, so they don’t necessarily suggest being king or queen.
As I don’t speak Russian, I will have to take your word for that, but is there anyone who can corfirm this?
Do the Orthodox really think this about Catholic devotion to Mary?
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dvdjs
Guest
There is no tradition suggesting the Theotokos was martyred, so the point is irrelevant. Just the same, a quick google (image) oi icons of Orthodox martyrs shows crowns only on martyred royalty.
Try the links; he hymn chanted by nuns of the Serbian Orthodox Monastery of St. Paisius includes English subtitles and also gives the refrain in English language.
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Ion
Guest
Fatima is a great miracle. I can’t think of it as private revelation while so many people saw it.
The Orthodox should have recognized it right away. If the Orthodox and Catholics would have reconciled for her sake…
I think the purpose of the requests was about the catholic-orthodox reconciliation.
The devil can’t trick us by pretending is Holy Virgin Mary, he can’t pretend it because that would make him to confess Jesus as our saviour.
Orthodox should better think of Holy Virgin Mary as Queen on Heavens and Earth so you will listen to her requests right away.
Did the Orthodox Russian Church agree with their consecration?
The Orthodox should have recognized it right away. If the Orthodox and Catholics would have reconciled for her sake…
I think the purpose of the requests was about the catholic-orthodox reconciliation.
The devil can’t trick us by pretending is Holy Virgin Mary, he can’t pretend it because that would make him to confess Jesus as our saviour.
Orthodox should better think of Holy Virgin Mary as Queen on Heavens and Earth so you will listen to her requests right away.
Did the Orthodox Russian Church agree with their consecration?
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Kmon23
Guest
Regardless of how many people saw it (even if every single person in the world believed it), it may never become anything more than private revelation due to it being not part of the Deposit if Faith that has been fully transmitted as “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (RSV Jude 1:3).
And this is not particularly of concern to Orthodox because this is a Catholic matter. It is out of our jurisdiction to make judgment on. Furthermore, like I said before, my opinion at least, the Orthodox venerate the Virgin Mary just as much as Catholics (with different emphasis on some of her titles). And also like I said before, some Orthodox think Catholics don’t venerate her enough.
And of course we listen to her requests when she appears to us (Orthodox). However the requests of Fatima aren’t directed at Orthodox but instead at Catholics so there is not much for us to do. And like I said, Fatima is not an issue that directly concerns us but is instead a Catholic matter.
And Russian Orthodox don’t take the consecration particularly well because it gives impression that Catholics want the Russian Orthodox to convert to Catholicism. But Orthodox believe they are the true church so…
And reconciliation I think is a very good thing, but for the Orthodox this is impossible unless the Catholic Church rejects certain doctrines of the church (or from a Catholic point of view, the Orthodox must accent to those doctrines).
The lack of reconciliation is not just an issue of hardness of heart or being mean/stubborn. There are serious theological issues that must be worked out for that to happen.
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prodromos
Guest
I challenge you to read the following, then see if you still feel the same way.A Fakir’s “Miracle” and the Prayer of Jesus. By Archimandrite Nicholas Drobyazgin
It was already evening when we left behind the noisy streets of the city and rolled along a marvellous jungle road which was twinkling with the sparks of millions of fireflies. Finally, the road suddenly widened and in front of us there was a small clearing surrounded on all sides by jungle. At the edge of the clearing under a big tree there was a kind of hut, next to which a small bonfire was smouldering and a thin, emaciated old man with a turban on his head sat cross-legged and with his unmoving gaze directed at the fire. Despite our noisy arrival, the old man continued to sit completely immovable, not paying us the slightest attention. Somewhere from out of the darkness a youth appeared and, going up to the colonel, quietly asked him something. In a short while he brought out several stools and our group arranged itself in a semi-circle not far from the bonfire. A light and fragrant smoke arose. The old man sat in the same pose, apparently noticing no one and nothing. The half-moon which arose dispelled to some extent the darkness of the night, and in its ghostly light all objects took on fantastic outlines. Involuntarily everyone became quiet and waited to see what would happen.
“Look! Look there, on the tree!” Miss Mary cried in an excited whisper. We all turned our heads in the direction indicated. And indeed, the whole surface of the immense crown of the tree under which the fakir was sitting was as it were gently flowing in the soft illumination of the moon, and the tree itself began gradually to melt and lose its contours; literally, some unseen hand had thrown over it an airy covering which became more and more concentrated with every moment. Soon the undulating surface of the sea presented itself with complete clarity before our astonished gaze. With a light rumble one wave followed another, making foaming white-caps; light clouds were floating in a sky which had become blue. Stunned, we could not tear ourselves away from this striking picture.
And then in the distance there appeared a white ship. Thick smoke poured out of its two large smokestacks. It quickly approached us, cleaving the water. To our great amazement we recognized it as our own ship, the one on which we had come to Colombo! A whisper passed through our ranks when we read on the stern, traced out in gold letters, the name of our ship, Luisa. But what astounded us most of all was what we saw on the ship — ourselves! Don’t forget that at the time when all this happened cinematography hadn’t even been thought of and it was impossible even to conceive of something like this. Each of us saw ourselves on the ship’s deck amongst people who were laughing and talking to each other. But what was especially astonishing: I saw not only myself, but at the same time the whole deck of the ship down to the smallest details, as if in a bird’s-eye view — which of course simply could not be in actuality. At one and the same time I saw myself among the passengers, and the sailors working at the other end of the ship, and the captain in his cabin, and even our monkey “Nelly,” a favorite of all, eating bananas on the main mast. All my companions at the same time, each in his own way, were greatly excited at what they were seeing, expressing their emotions with soft cries and excited whispers.
I had completely forgotten that I was a priest-monk and, it would seem, had no business at all participating in such a spectacle. The spell was so powerful that both the mind and the heart were silent. My heart began to beat painfully in alarm. Suddenly I was beside myself. A fear took hold of my whole being.
My lips began to move and say: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!” Immediately I felt relieved. It was just as if some mysterious chains which had bound me began to fall away. The prayer became more concentrated, and with it my peace of soul returned. I continued to look at the tree, and suddenly, as if pursued by the wind, the picture became clouded and was dispersed. I saw nothing more except the big tree, illuminated by the light of the moon, and likewise the fakir sitting in silence by the bonfire, while my companions continued to express what they were experiencing while gazing at the picture, which for them had not been broken off.
But then something apparently happened to the fakir also. He reeled to the side. The youth ran up to him in alarm. The seance was suddenly broken up.
Deeply moved by everything they had experienced, the spectators stood up, animatedly sharing their impressions and not understanding at all why the whole thing had been cut off so sharply and unexpectedly. The youth explained it as owing to the exhaustion of the fakir, who was sitting as before, his head down, and paying not the slightest attention to those present.
Having generously rewarded the fakir through the youth for the opportunity to be participants of such an astonishing spectacle, our group quickly got together for the trip back. While starting out, I involuntarily turned back once more in order to imprint in my memory the whole scene, and suddenly — I shuddered from an unpleasant feeling. My gaze met the gaze of the fakir, which was full of hatred. It was but for a single instant, and then he again assumed his habitual position; but this glance once and for all opened my eyes to the realization of whose power it was that had produced this “miracle.”
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Ion
Guest
So shortly your statement is: “it’s not our business, what she said it was only for listener, not part of the faith (???), we venerate her(???)”
You venerate her with your lips, you say only great things about her and expect her intercession, but otherwise you are not interested in her opinions and request unless…
unless she makes the miracle before you and speaks to you directly…
How many times this tune was played by the Jewish priests against the prophets?
…and you decide when where to who and what kind of actions are accepted miracles???
And of course, she must have the same opinion as you and your hierarchy otherwise you don’t believe she is Holy Virgin Mary.
I think the history shows the consequences:
Portugal asked to be consecrated and had peace during the second world war.
Western Europe got the boot from Hitler for 12 years, more and less.
But you guys got it really hard, not only you got the boot from Hitler but also from the Stalin and communists for about 70 years. Or do you think it was a reward for you guys?
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Ion
Guest
Sorry but I do not see any connection between this text and the Miracle of Fatima.
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Ion
Guest
Men of true faith search for truth!
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Indeed. So let us seek out the truth. Do you suppose God visited martyrdom upon them for His glory and blessed them with persecution for righteousness’ sake or because they didn’t accept alleged happenings in Fatima, the acceptance of which has no bearing upon the immutable deposit of faith once delivered to the Church? It’s a no-brainer, honestly.
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Ion
Guest
Probably you did not live under the stalinists/Communists.
It’s a shame to assume the martirdom of the faithfully based on the mistakes of the Russian Orthodox Hierarchy. What about the millions who died without communion? Tens of millions without proper religious education?
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Oh what nonsense. Do you suppose the pagan guard who proclaimed himself a Christian and joined the Forty Holy Martyrs of lake Sebaste received a “proper religious education” or ever received communion? It’s quite simple. The Scriptures promise that the followers of Christ will be persecuted, tortured, slain, etc., and that this will be done to them for Christ’s sake. They promise nothing about the private revelations at Fatima let alone any consequences for not doing as the apparition said to do.
Even your own church does not bind people to follow private revelations like Fatima, but rather it authorizes them to give such private revelations their prudent adhesion without in any way making the use of such private revelations obligatory.
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Ion
Guest
God knows his own.
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chimo
Guest
The Orthodox devotion to Mary is just as high as the Catholic devotion to Mary. We can learn from both Churches about Mary. In the Catholic Church this is done primarily outside the Mass while in the Orthodox Churches it done primarily in their Liturgies. Mary is mentioned at least 13 times at any Divine Liturgy. The problem though in the Catholic Church is you are not going to know Mary only from the Mass. It has to come from other sources and here the Rosary is one of these sources. Be as this may the Russian priest which you had mentioned (and I do not know the full details here so I am just guessing) is he is probably responding to many isolated Catholic groups which see the Fatima messages as an excuse for the conversion of Russia into the Catholic Church. The authentic message of Fatima of course was never this conversion into the Catholic Church but an end of the brutal persecutions which Communist ideology was pushing for. The Orthodox as does the Papacy see these isolated Catholic groups as misinterpreting the message of what Mary was trying to reveal to us. I do not think Catholics are obsessed with Mary or honor her too much. On the contrary the Catholic responds very well to the invitations of the Holy Mother. Without the support of millions of Catholics to the Fatima messages we will not have this better situation which Russia and Eastern Europe now enjoys. We the Orthodox can learn from this as well, the importance of prayers and what reparation can mean to a hurtful and wounded world. Fatima can teach this to us. These isolated Catholic groups which misinterpret the messages of Fatima can be summed up in the words of St. Paul when he was discussing about these other apostles who were using the name of Jesus only for their own ends. These other apostles were not true but Paul mentioned that even though these men call themselves apostles at least the name of Jesus is mentioned. The sad part of this is some Orthodox (and Catholics) listen too much to these isolated Catholic groups than to what the Popes have said yet the message of Fatima continues on.
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prodromos
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Forgive me chimo, but what of the prayers of the thousands of Russian martyrs?
How exactly were Catholics responsible for the “better situation”?
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RaphaelJ
Guest
I truly believe that both Catholics and Orthodox both truly venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary equally but in different ways. The way I see it Catholic’s devotion to Mary is seen in the plentiful feasts and solemnities to her throughout the year. However, it is mostly seen in the realm of ‘popular piety’ rather than the liturgy. The Orthodox devotion to Mary is more seen in the liturgy. I once read a lecture by a Russian bishop regarding popular piety and he discouraged it due to being less theologically heavy and more emotional so I might assume that the Orthodox Church does not have a strong ‘popular piety’ culture.
While interesting, I would also like to point out that your litanies and prayers are repeated a lot. Lastly, I hope that no one will use Fatima as an excuse to snipe at our Orthodox brethren. The Russian Orthodox have suffered under the Communist regime as well and no doubt they are also precious in the eyes of the Mother of God.
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chimo
Guest
The long list of martyrs are not forgotten. However if God thought this was enough to save Russia from this persecution He would not have sent Mary to Fatima. The necessary prayers of millions of Catholics combining it with the millions of martyrs was the antidote that God needed to end this Communist persecution. Prayers are good either from the martyr or those who are still living. In fact those who pray while living can be considered living martyrs. The point though from all of this was the “blood martyrs” were not enough to help God to change the persecution that was occurring in Russia. Something else was necessary and it was Fatima that had given God the extra necessary Graces to make this change possible.
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chimo
Guest
So is repetition of the Rosary but it helps us to get into a relationship with the Mother of God. Repetition is not a bad thing. The Orthodox tend to see this in their Liturgy while the Catholic sees this in their devotions (the mentioning of Mary and our requests to ask for her aid). What we need to do in each Church is to have this balance of Liturgy and devotion for everyone to use. If the Russian Orthodox priest discourages popular piety (to Mary) I believe he said this because he is not use to Catholic piety. He only grew up with what he knew and for that he finds any other “piety” probably not to his liking. If however he was opened to Catholic piety when he was younger his views probably would have been different.
The Fatima message had interested me because of the Catholic/Orthodox connection. It was interesting because for the first time in the history of the Church a predominantly Catholic group was praying for a predominantly Orthodox nation. This has never happened before. It seems to me a “calling” from Mary to help unite the Church. She was using the situation not only to help the persecuted Christians but to begin this stage where both Catholics and Orthodox would be supportive for each other.
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