Do the Swiss have better social policies than the USA?

[Bill_7154]

In being new to the forum I just opened a thead about Swiss healthcare that was closed with an explaination. It made sense to me. The post also suggested that new threads could be started that had merit based on what was in the closed thread, such as if new info came about since the original thread died, etc.

The reason I’m making this post is because the little I know about the way the Swiss run their country, frankly, impresses me. I know a little about 2 of their policies/practices:

1. National Defense. It’s my understanding that the Swiss have every male age something like 18-35 enrolled in their national guard or similar. I met a Swiss guy years back, he explained that they are required to report for training for something like 2 weeks/year. I also learned from him (to some respect) and another forum a couple years ago that essentially all Swiss men/citizens are requiried to own and have on hand in their house a functional machine gun and a box of ammo. This is required, if my understanding is correct, as part of their national defense. What impresses me is that over in Switzerland there are a whole lot of people (like most residences) in possession of an operational machine gun and plenty of ammo and poeple are not shooting it out in the streets, there are not a lot of murders or killings. To me this either effectively dispells the myth that guns cause violence or demonstrates in some way that/how the Swiss are superior to us in containing impulses to kill or do not have said impulses where in the USA plenty of people may. Something is going on. If the gun control advocates are correct, shouldn’t the Swiss be running amock in the streets mowing down dozens of people at a time? After all, they not only have ‘assault rifles’, they have actual machine guns in their homes and it is a requirement in fact.
2. The way they manange their drug problem. They treat it as a public health issue and not a criminal issue. I don’t know enough about the details to explain them but I do believe that they actually distribute heroin to heroin addicts much in the same way that we distribute methodone and suboxone to heroin addicts. Yet my understanding is that their crime (theft) and violence problems are a lot less than ours. It seems clear to me that this is connected to the fact that they treat drug addicts as sick people, as medical patients, and not as criminals.

Do people here have opinions/knowledge about either of the Swiss’ programs/policies above? What about other social policies and practices of the Swiss? I’m curious to learn about them. It seems to me they are more evolved as a culture than we are overall in the USA. Although this is just speculation as I do not follow the news or have much specific knowledge about their policies and practices. I would be very interested in hearing about the way they operate their society over there and what they do different than us. I’m also curious about the way their society breaks down religiously if anyone has that information.

 

[JIB]

They have a small, racially homogeneous culture with a lot of wealth so it’s hard to extrapolate.

They have us beat on some things, that’s for sure.

 

[BListon]

I don’t know… but their rolls are good

 

[Dale_M]

What about other social policies and practices of the Swiss?

Switzerland allows assisted suicide, even for persons who are not terminally ill. This law is wildly popular with the Swiss public. And it draws tourists from around Europe who are eager to shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

[Bill_7154]

They have a small, racially homogeneous culture with a lot of wealth so it’s hard to extrapolate.

These are some great points which sound to me to be important factors and signficant differences between that country and the USA. Wealth that is widespread and common will certainly alleviate difficult socio economic circumstances for the masses it would seem.

And the fact that they are a racially homogeneous culture leads me to these thoughts:

Slavery and it’s lingering impact. I’m not suggesting current racism be considered an important or significant factor, or a factor at all. But methinks that if my ancestors and all my neighbors ancestors, my culture was one that’s history were such that my and all my friends and neighbors great, great grandparents were slaves…where they were forced to breed and treated like dogs…leads me to think that the behaviors and attitudes and thoughts of my ancestors, their self-esteem, their notion of their role in the world, the way that being slaves likely shaped their psyche and parenting practices would be, lets say, less than optimal.

I happen to place a lot of significance on ‘nurture’ for various reasons. I think that it is certainly plausible that certain traits were instilled in the slaves that lived in the USA back when slavery was around, and those traits were also likely instilled in the children of the slaves, and their childrens, children. If you use a whip to train a human to behave like a dog, is it surprising if the person isn’t the most optimistic, self-fufilled, confident person around? Wouldn’t it be likely that their children grew up with low self esteem and low expectations about what their future held, to say the least? Does slavery and the forced breeding that was part of that have anything to do with the % of out of wedlock births by the decendents of such slaves? When your ancestors and all of your friends and neighbors ancestors were slaves, does this have a different impact on that group of people today compared to say a group of people whose great great grandparents and all of their friends and neighbors great great grandparents were doctors and professors, etc?

When the slave turned hero for running away is diagnosed by a highly respected psychiatrist at the time with: Drapetomania: a mental illness described by American physician Samuel A. Cartwright in 1851 that caused black slaves to flee captivity. Cartwright described the disorder — which, he said, was “unknown to our medical authorities, although its diagnostic symptom, the absconding from service, is well known to our planters and overseers”.

He stated that the malady was a consequence of masters who “made themselves too familiar with [slaves], treating them as equals”.

“If any one or more of them, at any time, are inclined to raise their heads to a level with their master or overseer, humanity and their own good requires that they should be punished until they fall into that submissive state which was intended for them to occupy. They have only to be kept in that state, and treated like children to prevent and cure them from running away.”

In addition to identifying drapetomania, Cartwright prescribed a remedy. His feeling was that with "proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many Negroes have of running away can be almost entirely prevented."In the case of slaves “sulky and dissatisfied without cause” — a warning sign of imminent flight — Cartwright prescribed “whipping the devil out of them” as a “preventative measure”. As a remedy for this “disease,” doctors also made running a physical impossibility by prescribing the removal of both big toes.

Now I know how hard it was for me to learn how to be a functional, working adult coming from a home where my parents and grandmother were drunks and inflicted all forms of abuse and neglect upon me on a regular basis. I consider myself lucky to have survived and to be able to work, and to be able to give back to the community by working with less fortunate populations and a large part of my skillset comes from me overcoming (for the most part) what was instilled in me as a child. In order for me to overcome that past I needed to leave and move into a homeless shelter. I was interested in, and quite open to and welcoming to any and all help I could get in the forms of support and guidance. I still have lingering traits that I am receiving help with through prayer today, things like low self esteem, marginal social skills, etc.

I immagine that if my whole culture was subjected to that sort of treatment a large % would not escape, which is in fact the case for children who are subjected to severe abuse and neglect in childhood.

If my hypothesis has truth to it, what social policies and practices would be useful in order to assist the decendents of slaves in re-framing their mindset, healing the psychological wounds, and assisting in learning behaviors that are more adaptive and characteristic of a functioning adult?

 

[CountrySteve]

I don’t know… but their rolls are good
http://feedingmytribe.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/swiss1.gif

LMAO thanks for the laugh, i needed one xD so random

 

[BListon]

LMAO thanks for the laugh, i needed one xD so random

Thanks… glad I could help

 

[George_Stegmeir]

They have a small, racially homogeneous culture with a lot of wealth so it’s hard to extrapolate.

They have us beat on some things, that’s for sure.

You also left out that like their neighbors the Bavarians and the Austrians, they have the strongest work ethic in Europe. In Switzerland, the very few people who shun work are ostracized by their neighbors and are made to feel miserable…Quite a difference from the US, where shunning work has become the National Sport…
Like my Father, a German immigrant used to say: The only thing wrong with America is that the people have it too good!

 

[kompaz]

1. National Defense. It’s my understanding that the Swiss have every male age something like 18-35 enrolled in their national guard or similar.

Close, but not quite.

All males have to do (2-years? I’m too lazy to check) millitary service. After that, they keep their issued rifle and gear at home, and each year report for two weeks of training. Once they get over 30 (34 for officers), they are no longer required to do so, and they can either keep the gun or give it back. In fact, a Swiss guy I know gave the rifle back, because he thinks that guns and 5-year-olds don’t mix.

What impresses me is that over in Switzerland there are a whole lot of people (like most residences) in possession of an operational machine gun and plenty of ammo and poeple are not shooting it out in the streets, there are not a lot of murders or killings.

Other factors aside, remember these are Army-issued guns, which you get after you complete the service. So any psychos will be caught during the service, discharged early (or sent to a mental institution right away), and obviously don’t get to keep their gun. Contrast that with US, where any psycho can go into a shop and buy a gun.

After all, they not only have ‘assault rifles’, they have actual machine guns in their homes and it is a requirement in fact.

Assault rifle… 5.56x45mm Sig 550 if you’re into that kind of thing. A fully automatic weapon of course.

Something is going on. If the gun control advocates are correct, shouldn’t the Swiss be running amock in the streets mowing down dozens of people at a time?

Yes, they have socialism works.

No, really. They have millionaires, and they have poor people. A millionaire lives in a nice villa by a lakeside. An average person lives in a small house. A poor person lives in small, gov’t-sponsored flat. Since the poor have their basic necessities covered, they are not aggressive. And when you’re on the street, you will have trouble discerning people by the social class (unless the millionaire decides to take his Ferrari for the spin…).

Now, the critics of the European system would have you believe that paying the poor welfare demoralizes them and they won’t work. That’s not quite so. While some people are satisfied with the standard of living welfare offers, most will willingly work just to get a bigger flat / house etc.

Do they have crime? Yes, they even have organized crime, but it’s nowhere near the levels where you feel endangered just by walking on the street.

Some of my observations from Switzerland:

• Healthcare. They have gov’t-mandated insurance, but when you go to the hospital, you have to pay first $100 or so. Above $100, the insurance pays everything. That $100 limit is to discourage people from going to hospital with banal illnesses.
• No old cars, because they have a law that cars older than 10 years must be scrapped (or sold abroad). Coupled with the tight emission controls, they have very expensive cars. But, they also have good public transport, so you can do without the car just fine.
• They have a protectionist economic policy, which results in high prices but good merchandise. Case in point: if you want to buy a kitchen knife, you can’t get a cheap $5 Chinese knife, you must buy a $100 Swiss knife. But that Swiss knife is made of stainless steel with reinforced carbon handle, so it will serve you for 20 years or more.
• Very expensive food, because they have import duties to support local farming.
• A lot of soldiers go to / from training grounds using public transport.
• Very high fines for things like traffic law violations. People drive very carefully. If a driver sees a person who wants to cross the street, they will stop, and let you cross the street. If they don’t and a cop sees them, there’s a $500 fine.
• Very high property taxes. A lot of foreigners flee to Switzerland with their capital to avoid high taxes at home. The Swiss will gladly welcome you, won’t ask where your money comes from, and won’t tax your capital… Except for the fact, that you have to pay 0.5% of your net worth. Each year.
• Banks have separate services for citizens and non-citizens. Some banks do both, some serve only citizens, and some only non-citizens.
• Besides banking (duh) and chocolate they have very developed technology industry. Watches require precision manufacturing.

 

[Dale_M]

Kompaz, thank you for your insights about Switzerland. They are very helpful.

I did want to make one minor point about the US, though

Actually, gun shops are required to do a background check on individuals who want to buy firearms. Persons convicted of felonies and persons who have diagnosed or treated for severe mental problems theoretically get weeded out. Of course, untreated or undiagnosed mentally ill persons won’t find this to be a barrier.

 

[JimG]

I like the first point, about universal military service for males. I’m thinking that if we did that in the U.S., it might help to get some kids out of the house before age 45!

Also the second point, about treating drug use as a health problem rather than a criminal problem, has something to be said for it. No point in filling up the prisons with marijuana dealers or users.

I would disagree with other of their ideas, such as legalized euthanasia or sexual mores.

 

[manualman]

I’m sure you mean well Bill, but you are painting an awful lot of people with a mighty thick paintbrush there. Humans are surprising critters and it’s not jut a few outliers from good families that turn out to be losers or those from horrific families that turn out to be model citizens. Nurture has a significant effect, but it can never negate free will.

I’m concerned that your description might be just a whisker away from effectively turning into KKK propaganda. I don’t mean to insult you, just want you to be careful of where you’re going. People from whatever population just aren’t that homogenous.

The Swiss have an artificial economy based on their banking system that attracts deposits from the wealthy all over the world. You can’t duplicate it globally unless you can locate a whole lot of wealthy aliens looking for a planet of bankers and investment managers.

 

[Bill_7154]

Close, but not quite.

Other factors aside, remember these are Army-issued guns, which you get after you complete the service. So any psychos will be caught during the service, discharged early (or sent to a mental institution right away), and obviously don’t get to keep their gun. Contrast that with US, where any psycho can go into a shop and buy a gun.

I was under the impression that 'psycho’s in the USA were not allowed to legally purchase guns. Like laws against felons and people who have been in mental hospitals not being allowed ot buy guns. I know laws in different states differ, and differ when it comes to handguns and long guns also. They also (at least in my state) differ by town to town, particularly when it comes to being allowed to purchase handguns, with individual police chiefs having great discretion on who they do and don’t allow to do so.

But you do make a good point that there is a screening process. Any idea what % of the Swiss are screened out?

 

[Bill_7154]

Close, but not quite.

No, really. They have millionaires, and they have poor people. A millionaire lives in a nice villa by a lakeside. An average person lives in a small house. A poor person lives in small, gov’t-sponsored flat. Since the poor have their basic necessities covered, they are not aggressive. .

From what I can tell a not so different things happens in the USA. But crime is much higher, yes? I would bet it’s the drug laws that make for the signficant difference. How many trillion have the swiss spent on a drug war in the past 40 years? How many million have been murdered as a direct result of drug prohibition?

 

[Bill_7154]

I’m concerned that your description might be just a whisker away from effectively turning into KKK propaganda.

Please explain. When someone suggests my posts (and therefore possibly my intent) has anything to do with the KKK or bigotry it is of great concern to me.

 

[Bill_7154]

• Banks have separate services for citizens and non-citizens. Some banks do both, some serve only citizens, and some only non-citizens.
• Besides banking

I’m curious about this and have some questions. A Swiss man I met many years ago told me that the Swiss were not part of the European Union. Is this correct? Was it correct and they have since changed? (I don’t follow the news). He told me (paraphrasing) 'they were invited to join and declinded, telling the other counties to fix the way their governments manage their finances, they were not interested because they felt the other governments were doing it wrong. What is the skinny on this, assuming I have any of the details even close to the facts?

Where do they fall on the list of countries in order of debt. Last time I checked the USA was at the top of the list, where do the Swiss fall?

Also, how do they handle immigration? What do they do to people who immigrate illegally (both in policy and in practice). I’m assuming they allow people in who are going to bring in a lot of wealth or highly specialized and desireable skills. How do they handle the average Joe who wants to immigrate there who has a trade but of no particular high demand? How do they handle people who want to immigrate there who have manual labor skills? How do they handle people who sneak in and get hired as nannies or who work odd jobs, etc?

 

[manualman]

I don’t think you meant it to sound this way, but you came awfully close to saying “descendents of slaves (code for blacks) are a nearly hopeless group. Their culture is so degraded from all those generations of oppression that you’ll never be able to expect great things from them and shouldn’t be surprised by degenerate things.”

OK, you weren’t that blunt, but the implication appeared to be pointed in that direction. I’m not attacking you, just worried that you’ll give people the wrong impression if you aren’t more careful.

 

[Brendan]

I’m curious about this and have some questions. A Swiss man I met many years ago told me that the Swiss were not part of the European Union. Is this correct? Was it correct and they have since changed? (I don’t follow the news).

The Swiss have traditionally avoided joining international bodies at anything more than the diplomatic level.

So, no they are not part of the EU, not part of NATO and are unlikely to join anytime in the near future.

They didn’t even join the UN until 2002, if that gives you any idea on the general Swiss reluctance to join international bodies.

 

[Bill_7154]

I don’t think you meant it to sound this way, but you came awfully close to saying “descendents of slaves (code for blacks) are a nearly hopeless group. Their culture is so degraded from all those generations of oppression that you’ll never be able to expect great things from them and shouldn’t be surprised by degenerate things.”

OK, you weren’t that blunt, but the implication appeared to be pointed in that direction. I’m not attacking you, just worried that you’ll give people the wrong impression if you aren’t more careful.

I’m only responsible for what I say, not for what other people might think I mean.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Oprah did a show about the Swiss and their social lifestyle. It seemed to only focus on the glory of their accomplishments; which seemed phony to me.

Many of the social arrangement resulted in making fun of religious values (marriage, family structure, end of life dignaty). The show said that most women do not get married because the government provides for all their families needs. They were so proud of this accomplishment : very curious indeed.