Do things exist if we do not understand them?

[Jim_Baur]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

 

[Trishie]

When I was an undergraduate we pondered such questions, once, I recall, until the sun rose. Now I’ll leave it to others.
The jacaranda is still outside my window even if I cannot see it in the dark, and the birds are still there, though I do not hear them. The earth will continue to revolve, even though I do not feel it.

 

[GEddie]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

1. The earth existed long before there was anybody to observe or to measure it.

2). Death exists, though we do not understand it.

So yes, yes, yes.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[RPRPsych]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

Nice set of questions!

Well, being an “armchair philosopher” who is currently in his armchair, let me take a bash at them:

1. This is a bit similar to “if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound”? We can infer existence from analogy, experience and natural laws even if we do not observe it directly… in the Zen example, a tree falling would still make a sound (due to the laws of physics), but it might go unheard and unexperienced. However, I believe that physical reality does exist independent of experience, though I’m not a “pure materialist”. I’d say yes to this one.
2. Existence isn’t really dependent on measurability. Some things cannot be measured either on theoretical grounds, such as emotions - one can at best measure physical or behavioural changes that go along with them, but the actual experience is a private one. That doesn’t make it real. Similarly, some things can be measured in principle though not in practice - to use a Biblical image, we could theoretically count every grain of “the sand of the sea” - the answer is a finite number - but good luck trying it for any length of time! So I’d say “yes” to this question. (Also, in physics, certain representations of reality - such as the “quantum state vector” - exist in “superpositions” before a measurement occurs. The measurement “collapses” the vector to one particular state, but the “vector” would be a valid description of reality until that measurement took place.)
3. Easiest one for me. There are lots of things that I do not “understand” in a complete fashion, try as I might - such as complex number calculus, a lot of philosophy, and the more bizarre of psychological theories! Furthermore, there are many things in our faith - such as the nature of God and the Trinity, angels, providence and predestination - that we can never “completely understand” because we are not God and have finite minds. However, I doubt most of us would say that these things do not exist. So I’d say yes to this one too.

I’d be interested in seeing what others have to say on this, though.

 

[jpjd]

Doesn’t this question get at the heart of what faith is? Because, the question is really, do things exist even if we don’t have the senses to perceive them?

For example, if a person lost his sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, what in this physical world would exist to him? Nothing. He has no way to sense anything that we who have those 5 senses know are there. Anyone who has lost a sense has to trust those of us who have that sense, that what we are telling him is true, really is true. To the blind man, we tell him it really is true that there is the color red. To the deaf woman, we tell her it really is true that birds chirp. To the paralyzed person who has no sense of touch, we say it really is true that sandpaper is rough. And they trust us that these things are true.

And in the same way…there is God, and the angels, and the evil one, and heaven, and all those things that are beyond our 5 senses, our ability to perceive them. We have no way to sense any of it. But we are told they exist…revealed to us by God himself either through public revelation or private revelation. And so we trust God that these things are true. We believe.

And so, to answer the OP’s question, I say, Yes, things do exist even if we do not understand them, because we have be told by One who knows they exist, that these things do exist.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Doesn’t this question get at the heart of what faith is? Because, the question is really, do things exist even if we don’t have the senses to perceive them?

No, that isn’t faith. If your definition of faith was correct, then scientists would have “faith” that atoms exist simply because they can’t perceive them. But scientists know atoms exist because they can be empirically verified.

Faith is believing in something either in the absence of evidence, or contrary to evidence. In the grand scheme of things, “rational faith” is an oxymoron. Science has never made the claim that things that can not be perceived do not exist.

 

[jpjd]

??? I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I did not address any claims by science in any way in my answer. Also, you quoted two questions I asked and somehow made those questions into a statement of definition.

I am trying to point out that faith is, as stated in Hebrews 11:1, “the conviction of things not seen.” We do not see, or perceive, these things in the heavenly realm, but we believe.

 

[Abba]

Nice set of questions!

Well, being an “armchair philosopher” who is currently in his armchair, let me take a bash at them:

---

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

I think that they do because I know that God exists and he is Love. I also know that he loves each and everyone of us so immensely that we have really no idea and he respects our human dignity.

1. Given the above, he would not deceive us nor play games with us. So, my son really is in his bedroom sleeping even though I cannot see him.
2. Love exists and we are unable to measure it.
3. God exists and we do not understand him completely.

 

[John21652]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

What ‘things’? All things? Do you count people as “things”?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

What do you man by measure? ‘Tape measure’ measure, or ‘measure’ as in take their worth? Worth is a very subjective notion. I might be able to make someone not exist tomorrow if I find out they are worthless to me.

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

Well, that means the wife, higher mathematics and a few other ‘things’ can’t exist in my universe.

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.
I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

 

[Newsy]

A speeding truck exists, even if I don’t see it coming. If I have no sense of its presence, it will still run me over. If I don’t believe in trucks at all, it can still kill me. Even if I cannot understand how a truck came into being, it is still there. Seems this can be problematic for some people, they don’t understand or care if there is a spiritual realm, so they dismiss it and choose not to believe.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Bishop Berkeley and W. Heisenberg, I think, put forward the first two ideas.

If we use there two ideas, the Big Bang never happened.

There was nobody there to witness it.

There was nobody there to measure it.

 

[jochoa]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?
Do things exist if we do not measure them?
Do things exist if we do not understand them?
I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.
I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

Amazing questions my friend, It has been my pleasure pondering them!

The following are Universal to every person which comes into existence:
Faith: Since that which comes into existence cannot prove what came before the first thing, and that which has an end in time, cannot prove what happens at the Fullness of Time, every person of the world must operate under this Universal Faith of not knowing.
Triune Beginning: Since we exist in a world of unchanging forces, the unchanging forces must have existed either prior to or simultaneously to existence, and there must be a single source of all matter/energy, and the unchanging forces and single source must work in unity. This can be wisely stated, by the Wisdom of the Universal Faith of the Triune God: “In the beginning was the Word (unchanging forces), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”
Peace: Peace is directly proportional to the quality of patience. Every action of a person is the combination of the desires of peace, the quality of patience, and the achievement of peace. Peace is Universal to every person from the moment of conception.
Happiness: Happiness is directly proportional to the quality of kindness. Every action of a person is the combination of the desires of happiness, the quality of kindness, the achievement of happiness. Happiness is Universal to every person from the moment of conception.
Energy: The use of energy is fully dependent on the quality of motivation. Every action of a person is the combination of the desires of energy, the quality of motivation, the achievement of energy. Energy is Universal to every person from the moment of conception.
Wisdom: Wisdom is directly proportional to the quality of knowledge. Every action of a person is the combination of the desires of wisdom, the quality of knowledge, the achievement of wisdom. Wisdom is Universal to every person from the moment of conception.
Image/Body: Every purposeful person has an image and body or only image. The body is exactly of the image or the image can be exactly of the body. The image is what a mind perceives. The body is what is materially there. The body can tell the mind what it feels. The Image/Body of a person is Universal to every purposeful person from the moment of conception.
Knowledge/Thoughts: Every purposeful person has knowledge and thoughts or only knowledge. The thoughts are exactly of the knowledge or the knowledge can be exactly of the thoughts. Knowledge of the spirit and body are unchanging. Thoughts of the mind are subject to change. The mind can tell the body what the mind thinks the body should do. The Knowledge/Thoughts of a person is Universal to every purposeful person from the moment of thought.
Spirit/Being: Every Spirit has an image and knowledge of which a will can proceed by others choosing to interact with it. Every Being has a body/image and thoughts/mind of which a will proceeds. The spirit/being is Universal to every purposeful person.
Will: Every purposeful person has a will which proceeds from the combination of the desires of the body and the thoughts of the mind, and the interaction with the image and knowledge. The human will is free to subject itself to do the will as set by the Greatest Commandments, for this is the Godly Will. The Will of a person is Universal to every purposeful person from the moment of conception.
True Loving Nature: Every purposeful person has the choice to align his/her will with that of Jesus Christ: Always want to spread the means to be perfectly patient and kind and motivated with all the body, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self, in order to achieve unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom, as a society as well as individual. The True Loving Nature is the Universal Pinnacle of being, the True Loving Nature of Jesus Christ (Mind, Body, Will, and Spirit), and this is Universal to all people.
The Holy Trinity: The Universally Greatest Design of society is where the person of the governing head sets the Truly Loving commandments. Then the governed body of persons, including the head person, freely subjects themselves to the same laws. Then the will of the body of persons, including the head person, perfectly proceeds from the commandments, as set by the head person, and the body of persons. To simply state this: The Father is the person of the Spirit of God (has the exact image of Jesus Christ). The Son is the person of the body of God that came down from heaven and subjected himself to the laws of existence in this world, therefore He has a human mind, a godly body, a human and godly will, and has a human spirit, which in His mind and will developed and grew to become at one with the Truly Loving Nature. The instance His mind and human will were at one with the nature of His Body, His Spirit revealed the Holy Spirit. But in order to reveal the Holy Spirit of Unity in the Truly Loving Nature to free-willed beings, a free-willed human must become atone with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to demonstrate to the free world the power and beauty of being one with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ!

Whether or not one chooses to accept the Universal Truths of Existence is their choice. However, it is when one recognizes, accepts, lives, and proclaims these Universal Truths as the Catholic Faith, that one begins to Truly Live!

Thoughts?

 

[JDaniel]

Bishop Berkeley and W. Heisenberg, I think, put forward the first two ideas.

If we use there two ideas, the Big Bang never happened.

There was nobody there to witness it.

There was nobody there to measure it.

Jim:

In a few years, there will be nobody left that can verify the Viet Nam War. So, according to that criteria, it didn’t happen?

Actually, come to think of it, I’ve never been to Viet Nam, so I’ve never seen or touched Viet Nam and I don’t believe our politicians or our TV’s , , , so, Viet Nam doesn’t exist!

God bless,
jd

 

[inocente]

Bishop Berkeley and W. Heisenberg, I think, put forward the first two ideas.

If we use there two ideas, the Big Bang never happened.

There was nobody there to witness it.

There was nobody there to measure it.

The Word witnessed it (John 1:1). Unless this post ceases to exist when you scroll it out of view.

 

[Amanda_B]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

I think it depends on what you are observing and measuring. It is being discovered that the invisible world of quantum mechanics is much different from the world that physics deals with. Quantum mechanics has shown, for example, that the location of certain subatomic particles is only determined once a measurement is made of that subatomic particle. Indicting that it is measurement itself that determines said subatomic particle’s position and thus prior to that measurement, its location can only be defined as “uncertain.” aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

 

[Nelka]

Do things exist if we do not observe them?

Do things exist if we do not measure them?

Do things exist if we do not understand them?

I hope some will respond, if not, I truly understand why.

I am here to learn and have some enjoyment.

There are things that I have not observed but I know they exist.

There are some things that I have never measured but I see their existence.

There are many things that I do not understand but know exist.

What I cant understand is how someone can watch Mork & Mindy and enjoy it.

Is there a particular subject area that you were thinking about?

 

[A_G]

Yes, things exist even if they are a mystery to us. God created everything. Just because we don’t fully know or fully understand everything, doesn’t mean that those things don’t exist.

I went to a Catholic University and I remember during a philosophy class we were studying
Rene Descartes who said *]“I think, therefore I am” * , but I disagree with Descartes here. This was actually one of those lessons that you always remember. We concluded that a more proper statment is "God is, therefore we are."

 

[emisher]

No, that isn’t faith. If your definition of faith was correct, then scientists would have “faith” that atoms exist simply because they can’t perceive them. But scientists know atoms exist because they can be empirically verified.

Faith is believing in something either in the absence of evidence, or contrary to evidence. In the grand scheme of things, “rational faith” is an oxymoron. Science has never made the claim that things that can not be perceived do not exist.

Yes, and all have faith in something. Is there any evidence that there are multiple versions of us in parallel universes? Does this stop atheist scientists from spending years thinking about them all the while confidently claiming that faith in God is irrational?

 

[DaveBj]

To get a little facetious, I don’t understand women. Anyone want to argue that they don’t exist?

 

[Nelka]

I don’t understand atheists but unfortunately they exist.

:bible1::bible1: