Do traditionalists generally sympathise "more" w/ the Eastern Catholic Liturgy?

[Catholig]

It seems to me that they sympathise w/ the eastern catholic liturgy than maybe “regular” catholics would or at least they seem to have a greater awareness of it…

What do you think?

 

[Like]

It seems to me that they sympathise w/ the eastern catholic liturgy than maybe “regular” catholics would or at least they seem to have a greater awareness of it…

What do you think?

I suppose some do, but I don’t. I’ve never been to a EO liturgy.

 

[Ahimsa]

The first Catholic Church I ever visited was Eastern Catholic. I forgot the specific Rite it was. Lots of former-Protestants-turned-Catholics know about the Eastern Catholics, since Eastern Catholicism, along with Orthodoxy, probably were possible conversion considerations.

 

[m134e5]

It seems to me that they sympathise w/ the eastern catholic liturgy than maybe “regular” catholics would or at least they seem to have a greater awareness of it…

What do you think?

Some may, but I certainly do not. I love the Latin liturgy. I also particularly like some of the customs of various countries that are mostly Latin Catholics- or at least historically have been (Western Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean, etc.). I love the general sense of the sacred about both the traiditonal Latin Mass and the liturgies of other rites, but I also love parts of the Latin Rite that are unique to it. The Latin rite and the Byzazntine rite (and other rites) have more differences than just the liturgies themselves. They have different devotions and different ways of looking at things (like purgatory, original sin, etc.). I love Eucharistic Adoration, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, and other things that are generally thought of as devotions of the Latin rite.

 

[Jakub]

They hold to their traditions handed down to them…

james

 

[batteddy]

They hold to their traditions handed down to them…

Hmm…I hope so.

But in the USA, at least, I don’t always see this.

Vatican II claimed that it wanted to get rid of Latinizations…and so, of course, the first thing that many Eastern Churches did…was “reform” in the spirit of the Novus Ordo .

I see all sorts of pictures of Eastern Liturgies celebrated not behind the iconostasis…with a new altar built out front…it’s sad…

 

[Walking_Home]

Hmm…I hope so.

But in the USA, at least, I don’t always see this.

Vatican II claimed that it wanted to get rid of Latinizations…and so, of course, the first thing that many Eastern Churches did…was “reform” in the spirit of the Novus Ordo .

I see all sorts of pictures of Eastern Liturgies celebrated not behind the iconostasis…with a new altar built out front…it’s sad…/QUOTE]​

That is very troubling to hear.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

It seems to me that they sympathise w/ the eastern catholic liturgy than maybe “regular” catholics would or at least they seem to have a greater awareness of it…

What do you think?

The Eastern Churches have kept the traditional liturgy whilst the Catholic Church has largely dropped its. So a Traditional Catholic sees nothing seriously wrong with Eastern liturgical practises.

Schismatics don’t generally reject everything about the Chruch they leave. In the case of the Eastern the problem is more a high-level disagreement over bishops’ rights than anything else. It is sad, but it will have to be healed at a high level. There is not much the average Catholic, traditional or not, can do.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

Hmm…I hope so.

But in the USA, at least, I don’t always see this.

Vatican II claimed that it wanted to get rid of Latinizations…and so, of course, the first thing that many Eastern Churches did…was “reform” in the spirit of the Novus Ordo .

I see all sorts of pictures of Eastern Liturgies celebrated not behind the iconostasis…with a new altar built out front…it’s sad…

Really, I’ve been to 4 different Ruthenian Byzantine Divine Liturgies across the country. One of them seemed to latinize some, but the other three seemed to have been quite successful in ridding of most of the latinization. All of them were behind an iconostasis and were not what you described.

FWIW, I am a Latin Catholic, and prefer the heritage which was passed down to me. However, every once in a while I enjoy assisting at Divine Liturgy and very much appreciate the Eastern Praxis.

It was my introduction to the Eastern Rite and Divine Liturgy that began journey to traditionalism which resulted me in being a member of an Indult parish.

 

[Woodstock]

There seems to be some confusion here between the Eastern Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics. A few people have referred to the Orthodox. We share the same liturgy and heritage as the Orthodox while our Churches are in communion with the Pope and the Latin Church.

As a Byzantine Catholic, I find that there is much more awareness of the Eastern Churches among the traditionalist Latins. There tends to be a lot of misunderstandings, but still an awareness. I’ve noticed that many traditionalists recommend going to an Eastern Catholic Church if there is no TLM available. I even saw one SSPX site that said the only true choices were an SSPX mass or an Eastern Catholic liturgy. Almost all Eastern Catholics are well-versed in the issues surrounding the traditional Latin Catholic community.

We regularly have Latin traditionalists come visit our temple, and they are most often scandalized. All they were told was that we don’t have altar girls, we don’t have communion in the hand, we don’t hold hands during the Our Father, the priest faces east, and we do have “more reverence.” It is interesting what they ask about. It almost always includes genuine shock that we don’t have the Stations of the Cross first, then that we didn’t have a public recitation of the rosary, that the liturgy is so “noisy” with the movement and congregational singing, and somehow the issue of transubstantiation comes up almost every time. They are all interested in the iconography and want to learn about it, but they also resist the theological teachings about the icons. They usually are not happy that there are no statues. They almost never return.

I’ve been to Eastern Catholic parishes that are highly Latinized (public rosary, statues, short recited liturgy, Saturday evening liturgy, adoration, homilies from a Latin theological perspective, that type of thing) and they tend to have a high number of Latin traditionalists worshipping with them. I figure they are the ones telling their friends or family members to come check us out.

Poor people come to our temple expecting the same thing and are completely blindsided. They don’t understand the Communion of Catholic Churches, or that we have our own liturgical, theological, spiritual, and disciplinary history. We’ve even had some stand in the narthex in fear through liturgy, refuse to commune, and even ask if it is OK if they leave before we even start.

It is important for all Catholics to be aware of the richness and universality of the Church, and to have a love and respect for all Catholic T/traditions. I am happy to see so many learning about the Eastern Churches and recognizing that they are different, and even if they don’t fill the individual’s spiritual needs, they have a richness and beauty of their own that deserves respect.

In this regard, I think Eastern Catholics and traditionalist Latins have much in common. They share many of the same misunderstandings from others and difficulties in living out their faith lives. So ECs and TCs often feel a closeness to each other that stems from a shared experience which bridges the liturgical and theological differences. I think that is a wonderful thing.

Anyone wanting to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches can listen to this faithful and dynamic priest’s weekly presentations. byzantinecatholic.com/radio.htm

 

[Genesis315]

Thanks for the post Woodstock.

I think most people don’t appreciate the contributions Eastern Catholics make towards the sanctification of Holy Church. They made great sacrifices and have and continue to bear much derision and mistreatment because of their union with the Roman Church and their faithfulness to Eastern traditions. They show forth the Catholicity of the Church and they bear a faithful witness the rest of the Church can definitely learn from

 

[Catholig]

Hey Woodstock,

Thanks for your reply - I’d always thought that you were EO.

In any case - thank you for your reply. It was my feeling that traditionalists seemed to sympathise more w/ Eastern Catholics than the Novus Ordo attending ones do.

Aside from that though I just wanted to say that I don’t think praying the rosary is a “bad” latinization Do byzantines praythe rosary at home?

Catholig

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Woodstock:

We regularly have Latin traditionalists come visit our temple, and they are most often scandalized.

You forgot to mention that horror upon learning the priest is married and has four children.

 

[Woodstock]

Hey Woodstock,

Thanks for your reply - I’d always thought that you were EO.

In any case - thank you for your reply. It was my feeling that traditionalists seemed to sympathise more w/ Eastern Catholics than the Novus Ordo attending ones do.

Aside from that though I just wanted to say that I don’t think praying the rosary is a “bad” latinization Do byzantines praythe rosary at home?

Catholig

Many Byzantines, and even a handful of Orthodox, pray the rosary at home. It is a beautiful prayer that the church has no objection to. It does pose a problem to the eastern understanding of how one should pray, as the formation of images in the mind is strongly discouraged. Because of that, many easterners choose to do a scriptural rosary. Most prefer to use a prayer rope to count Jesus Prayers, though.

The Latinization aspect is the public rosary before Liturgy and the private rosary during Liturgy. Our tradition calls for the communal prayer of the divine offices before Liturgy and the active participation of the laity in the liturgical prayer during the Liturgy. It doesn’t restrict the personal and private devotions of the laity, though.

Others here might be able to understand a comparison. I’m sure that most of us can agree that iconography is a beautiful tradition of the Eastern Churches. I don’t think many on this board would be happy if all the statues were removed from the traditional Latin churches and replaced with icons, though. Or if on May Day the two sides of the church did an alternating chanted hymn to Mary the Theotokos instead of crowning a statue of her. That doesn’t mean the icons are bad, it just means the lack of statues isn’t part of the public tradition of the Latin Church. It doesn’t stop individual Latins from owning or praying with icons at home. This is the same way our church looks at the rosary.

You forgot to mention that horror upon learning the priest is married and has four children.

You would think that would come up, but it almost never does. They seem to be warned about that in advance and to have accepted it before they arrive. It is almost always the lack of Stations that gets to them.

 

[Catholig]

Many Byzantines, and even a handful of Orthodox, pray the rosary at home. It is a beautiful prayer that the church has no objection to. It does pose a problem to the eastern understanding of how one should pray, as the formation of images in the mind is strongly discouraged. Because of that, many easterners choose to do a scriptural rosary. Most prefer to use a prayer rope to count Jesus Prayers, though.

The Latinization aspect is the public rosary before Liturgy and the private rosary during Liturgy. Our tradition calls for the communal prayer of the divine offices before Liturgy and the active participation of the laity in the liturgical prayer during the Liturgy. It doesn’t restrict the personal and private devotions of the laity, though.

Others here might be able to understand a comparison. I’m sure that most of us can agree that iconography is a beautiful tradition of the Eastern Churches. I don’t think many on this board would be happy if all the statues were removed from the traditional Latin churches and replaced with icons, though. Or if on May Day the two sides of the church did an alternating chanted hymn to Mary the Theotokos instead of crowning a statue of her. That doesn’t mean the icons are bad, it just means the lack of statues isn’t part of the public tradition of the Latin Church. It doesn’t stop individual Latins from owning or praying with icons at home. This is the same way our church looks at the rosary.

Understood. And I agree.

Catholig

 

[BobP123]

You forgot to mention that horror upon learning the priest is married and has four children.

Yes, and ironically in some instances is even allowed to say the Tridentine Mass with less resistance from his superiors.

 

[Woodstock]

Yes, and ironically in some instances is even allowed to say the Tridentine Mass with less resistance from his superiors.

I don’t understand. I am pretty sure that Eastern Catholic priests are canonically barred from offering the TLM or any other Liturgy outside their tradition. The four within their tradition are the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Liturgy of St. Basil, the Liturgy of St. James, and the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts. The only way it would be possible for them to celebrate the Tridentine Mass is to concelebrate with a priest of the Latin Church or to be bi-ritual and celebrate the TLM under their Latin Church authority, subject to the Latin bishop.

Were you making a joke about how difficult it is for some Latin priests to gain permission to celebrate it? Your words “in some instances” led me to believe you were trying to base it in reality.

 

[BobP123]

Your words “in some instances” led me to believe you were trying to base it in reality.

Yes, I know of at least one.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’ve heard too many stories about Trad Latins coming to Eastern Churches, thinking they would be just like what they remembered before Vatican 2–and getting a nasty shock.

Many would not care what language was used–as long as it wasn’t English. I guess they wanted to close their eyes and pretend they were hearing Latin.

Others would join Eastern churches just starting and fight against putting up an Iconostasion.

Others would attend adult education, and counter every Patristic quotation with, “But the Council of Trent said…”

Some would not attend the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, but insist on having Stations. (One priest gave in, putting 12 prostrations at each station! )

As you can guess, such people usually didn’t stay long.

Those who would stay and grow are always those who accepted the Byzantine and other Eastern Churches on their own terms, instead of being just Roman Catholics who said mass funny.

 

[Catholig]

I’ve heard too many stories about Trad Latins coming to Eastern Churches, thinking they would be just like what they remembered before Vatican 2–and getting a nasty shock.

Many would not care what language was used–as long as it wasn’t English. I guess they wanted to close their eyes and pretend they were hearing Latin.

Others would join Eastern churches just starting and fight against putting up an Iconostasion.

Others would attend adult education, and counter every Patristic quotation with, “But the Council of Trent said…”

Some would not attend the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, but insist on having Stations. (One priest gave in, putting 12 prostrations at each station! )

As you can guess, such people usually didn’t stay long.

Those who would stay and grow are always those who accepted the Byzantine and other Eastern Churches on their own terms, instead of being just Roman Catholics who said mass funny.

Uhhmm - what’s a Patristic quotation? And how can it contradict the Council of Trent?

Catholig