Do trickle-down economic theories work?

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The following is my opinion, not Catholic social teaching, so take it for what its worth.

The focus of social justice should be on ensuring equal opportunity (not equal dollars) to attain wealth of whatever magnitude. In a very real sense, trickle down economics serves this purpose.

Incentivizing risk taking, entrepreneurship, creativity and hard work is the first step. When we simply redistribute wealth, those incentives disappear and we begin to see the ramifications.

I teach at a local community college. I had one student ask to see me. He said that he wasn’t “getting” the information that was being discussed in lecture. I asked him if he was doing the corresponding reading and he said that he didn’t buy the book because financial aid wouldn’t pay for it. I was flabbergasted! I told him to go cut somebody’s lawn or wash their car, but not buying the book was not an option. Although it is late in the semester, I told him to find a way to buy the book since he will need it when he has to take the course again in the fall.

I don’t mean to pick on this lad, but this is a mindset that doesn’t understand how to utilize the gifts God gave him to be the very best he can be. How sad…

Instead of coddling and providing for everything one needs, we should help folks to reach the pinnacle of their potential.

Maybe I am at odds with our dear Pope, but life is more than money…it is purpose and honor and knowing the satisfaction of a job, a career, a life well done.
You could have also have made sure a copy was available in the college library so that students who could not afford to buy all the books could read them there.

I was lucky when I went to a community college. I worked full time for a company that would pay tuition or books, but not both. The state picked up 90-100% of tuition for ALL in-state students. I don’t remember if there was no tuition or $5 a unit (40 years ago). I was making minimum wage, paying rent, transportation, utilities & food. Books, even used, were a major expense. It did encourage me to get at least a C.
 
You could have also have made sure a copy was available in the college library so that students who could not afford to buy all the books could read them there.

I was lucky when I went to a community college. I worked full time for a company that would pay tuition or books, but not both. The state picked up 90-100% of tuition for ALL in-state students. I don’t remember if there was no tuition or $5 a unit (40 years ago). I was making minimum wage, paying rent, transportation, utilities & food. Books, even used, were a major expense. It did encourage me to get at least a C.
Acquiring a text book is a pretty rudimentary part of education. One can rent books, buy them on line at a discount or purchase used books. One of the hallmarks of a good education is responsibility. If I am preparing a student to go out into the workforce, they need to realize that the employer has certain expectations.

The difference between the example you speak of from 40 years ago and this young man is that you were willing to put yourself out to get what you needed. My student expects the state to provide for all of his needs and he is still failing the courses.

Again, I am not trying to be unjustly harsh. But, if we as adult mentors don’t show the young people how to strive for greatness, who will?
 
No, my point was that the state, the corporation I worked for, and my professors either paid for my education and/or made sure the resources were available. I had teachers tell the class that the textbooks would be available in the library at the beginning of the term.

When my daughter went to Cal, her books were about $700 a semester. That was about 30 percent of what her fees/tuition was. I suspect that at a community college the books cost more than the tuition.

Basically, we no longer support trickle down economics. So, it is pretty easy to say it doesn’t work.
 
Dear Zolton Cobalt,

Cordial greetings and a very warm welcome to the world of CAF. Do hope that you find your time here informative and spiritually enriching.
Dear Portrait:

Thank you for the warm welcome. You are very kind.
In reality the so called trickle down effect does not work post globalism. Customers obtain their disposable income from their wages and businesses get the profits to pay wages from their customers. Unfortunately, dear friend, when they offshore production so that they can pay the minimum in wages they are disrupting the balance. All of a sudden businesses do not have to share the wealth and greedily keep the lion’s share for themselves and invest it further. Thus you have money accumulating at the top with only the bear minimum coming back down, seldom if ever reaching those at the very bottom.
Firstly, globalism is hardly the evil you seem to perceive. Taking production off shore creates a great benefit for our brothers & sisters in other countries. Jobs that pay a fair wage (although low by our standards) provide an income for millions that make the difference between poverty, crime, starvation and a living.

Secondly, a business is not formed to “share the wealth”. It is formed to make a profit. Now that profit may be shared with investors who risked their money on the success of the business…but there is no other obligation to “share the wealth”.
One is surely entitled to ask, dear friend, where this wealth is supposed to trickle down from. Here in Britain foreign multi-nationals own most of our car plants and foreign billionaires own half of the prohibitively expensive property in central London. Moreover, the largest interweb search engines operating in Britain are not based here. Your high street stores are registered offshore, thus other than their employee PAYE and National Insurance contributions paid to the government what proportion of their wealth actually remains in Britain to trickle down to the working poor? Precious little, which is why the working poor must have meagre wages augmented by government Social Security ‘top ups’ of one sort or another. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the British tax payer is funding these avaricious foreign multi-nationals, as well as other employers also, who claim they do not have the money to pay a decent living wage. They ought to remember that without these essential workers who labour for a pittance, their businesses would not survive - “the labourer is worthy of his hire”, as St. Paul said.
Portrait, old sport, I am truly sorry about the condition of the British economy.

I am saddened to recall that the nation that gave the world the Industrial Revolution and a laissez-faire Free Market that did so much to raise the standard of living for ALL…has slipped so far. Could it be government intervention, a welfare system that attracts immigrants and pays workers not to work and laws and taxes that drive business out???
“…be satisfied with your wages.” Luke 3: 14
J.K. Galbraith, the American economist, offered the best definition of ‘trickle-down economics’ that I have yet read: “If you let the horses guzzle enough oats, something will pass through for the sparrows”.
Galbraith gave an excellent definition. I am sure the sparrows are delighted. As they should be.
 
Dear Portrait:

Thank you for the warm welcome. You are very kind.

Firstly, globalism is hardly the evil you seem to perceive. Taking production off shore creates a great benefit for our brothers & sisters in other countries. Jobs that pay a fair wage (although low by our standards) provide an income for millions that make the difference between poverty, crime, starvation and a living.

Secondly, a business is not formed to “share the wealth”. It is formed to make a profit. Now that profit may be shared with investors who gambled their money on the success of the business…but there is no other obligation to “share the wealth”.

Portrait, old sport, I am truly sorry about the condition of the British economy.

I am saddened to recall that the nation that gave the world the Industrial Revolution and a laissez-faire Free Market that did so much to raise the standard of living for ALL…has slipped so far. Could it be government intervention, a welfare system that attracts immigrants and pays workers not to work and laws and taxes that drive business out???
“…be satisfied with your wages.” Luke 3: 14

Galbraith gave an excellent definition. I am sure the sparrows are delighted. As they should be.
Do you also like “Let them eat cake”?

The global “free market” does not work for the worker. Wages in my professin have gone down by more than 50 percent. The wages of the people I compete with have not increased by the same dollar amount. And prices in the field I work in have not gone down.

BTW, I work for myself as a computer programmer. I work in the health insurance field. I have no employees. I am responsible for my taxes, finding new contracts, health insurance, etc. I don’t get paid vacations, sick time or holidays. I don’t mind paying taxes if it improves my country. I resent paying taxes so companies can improve other counties or take the money and jobs offshore.
 
There are third world countries in which people are stuck in poverty and by and large can’t do much about it. In the United States if you are willing to work your rear off and use just a little sense you will do just fine. The rest whine and moan about the rich holding them back and don’t do so well. Just the way it is.
 
I am beginning to think that “Social Justice” should be called “Social Covetness” I see more and more people who are infected with bad cases of class envy whining about “Social Justice”.

Trickle down economics, not only works, it is what provides for all the wage earners in this country. Unless you are working for yourself …you are earning what “trickles down” from someone who makes more money than you do. If you are unhappy with a job or don’t think your wages are fair…you are free to start your own business. Of course there are government jobs or even welfare…but they also depend on the “trickle down” principal. The government taxes the rich to pay government employees and and provide for the welfare state.

A well known economist was once talking about the “health of the economy”. He said that if the upper class caught a cold, the middle class would have the flu and the poor would be seriously ill.
What about people who don’t work? There are a lot of those in this country. Do you think the weath trickles down to them? No the government takes care of them. That is socialism.
 
What about people who don’t work? There are a lot of those in this country. Do you think the weath trickles down to them? No the government takes care of them. That is socialism.
At one point, we decided as a society, that if we could not produce enough jobs for everyone to have a job, we would provide a bare minimum of support. This was done for several reasons, including helping out the old, the sick, and the orphans. Yes, there are some that take advantage. But the majority of those who are on the dole do not want to be there and would love to have a job.

Many people not receiving government support are glad it exists. If Medicare did not exists, how many people would find themselves unable to help their children because they had to pay for their parent’s medical (and trust me, the state governments would come after you faster than the federal government’s would)? How many people would be able to afford a mortgage if they didn’t receive a rebate from the government (a real estate agent will tell you can afford the house because of the deduction)? How many people would not know how to read if it weren’t for public schools? How many people would not have fresh water if it weren’t for municipal water systems? Most streets and sidewalks are supported through a form of socialism.

Society takes care of all of us at some level. Whether you work or not.
 
At one point, we decided as a society, that if we could not produce enough jobs for everyone to have a job, we would provide a bare minimum of support. This was done for several reasons, including helping out the old, the sick, and the orphans. Yes, there are some that take advantage. But the majority of those who are on the dole do not want to be there and would love to have a job.

Many people not receiving government support are glad it exists. If Medicare did not exists, how many people would find themselves unable to help their children because they had to pay for their parent’s medical (and trust me, the state governments would come after you faster than the federal government’s would)? How many people would be able to afford a mortgage if they didn’t receive a rebate from the government (a real estate agent will tell you can afford the house because of the deduction)? How many people would not know how to read if it weren’t for public schools? How many people would not have fresh water if it weren’t for municipal water systems? Most streets and sidewalks are supported through a form of socialism.

Society takes care of all of us at some level. Whether you work or not.
Yes absolutely. But the 2% are not taking care of the non-working. So trickle down doesn’t work. We do need social systems or the poor/non-working would really be in bad shape.
 
Yes absolutely. But the 2% are not taking care of the non-working. So trickle down doesn’t work. We do need social systems or the poor/non-working would really be in bad shape.
I agree. We are not taking care of the poor and trickle down does not work. As far as I am concerned, only two things flow down and one of them is water.
 
Do you also like “Let them eat cake”?

The global “free market” does not work for the worker. Wages in my professin have gone down by more than 50 percent. The wages of the people I compete with have not increased by the same dollar amount. And prices in the field I work in have not gone down.

BTW, I work for myself as a computer programmer. I work in the health insurance field. I have no employees. I am responsible for my taxes, finding new contracts, health insurance, etc. I don’t get paid vacations, sick time or holidays. I don’t mind paying taxes if it improves my country. I resent paying taxes so companies can improve other counties or take the money and jobs offshore.
Sorry, Sally. I don’t mean to be harsh, but that is the way it is.

You are right…the global Free Market does not work for anyone. Because it ceased to exist in the early 1900’s. If we had a really true Free Market today, you would be very prosperous and probably employ several people.

I knew an independent programmer who had a two year contract that paid very well but required long hours. So he farmed out two thirds of the work to a couple of really sharp programmers in India. He paid them about a quarter of what he was making. He only worked two days a week and took several vacations. It was a total win-win situation. The company was happy because the work came in ahead of time. The guys in India were happy because they never made so much money. My friend was happy because he had plenty of free time and enough income to enjoy himself.
 
What about people who don’t work? There are a lot of those in this country. Do you think the weath trickles down to them? No the government takes care of them. That is socialism.
Spreading the wealth is socialism.

Taking from some by force and giving it to someone else is theft. :mad:
 
Yes absolutely. But the 2% are not taking care of the non-working. So trickle down doesn’t work. We do need social systems or the poor/non-working would really be in bad shape.
If the 2% are not supporting the non-working…who is?
 
Sorry, Sally. I don’t mean to be harsh, but that is the way it is.

You are right…the global Free Market does not work for anyone. Because it ceased to exist in the early 1900’s. If we had a really true Free Market today, you would be very prosperous and probably employ several people.

I knew an independent programmer who had a two year contract that paid very well but required long hours. So he farmed out two thirds of the work to a couple of really sharp programmers in India. He paid them about a quarter of what he was making. He only worked two days a week and took several vacations. It was a total win-win situation. The company was happy because the work came in ahead of time. The guys in India were happy because they never made so much money. My friend was happy because he had plenty of free time and enough income to enjoy himself.
How nice for him. But why didn’t he pay them the full price? It sounds like he cheated them. Just because they were happy does not make it right.

Trickle down sounds like a reason to cheat in this case.
 
What was the standard of living 300 years ago? 200? 100? Today?

Sure they do. The American standard of living shows it.
 
Do you also like “Let them eat cake”?

The global “free market” does not work for the worker. Wages in my professin have gone down by more than 50 percent. The wages of the people I compete with have not increased by the same dollar amount. And prices in the field I work in have not gone down.

snip/
Dear sallybutler,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your splendid (name removed by moderator)ut into the discussion, I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks.

Since the rich and powerful (including large corporations) and organisations like the IMF and World Bank have been setting the agenda for the past few decades, governments have become increasingly prevented from creating or controlling the conditions for the flourishing of their populations. Relentless privatisation and inequitable anti-unionism, less money spent on support and training of disadvantaged youth, results in the morass in which we find ourselves today, where the poor and sick cannot maintain even a basic standard of living, let alone fight their way out of poverty.

Inequality, dear friend, leads to economic stagnation and poverty for all but the very rich and powerful. Needless to say, this does not mean that every individual wealthy person has no social conscience and cares nothing for those who are desperately struggling to keep afloat, but the rich have a sad tendency to be motivated by self-interest. Thus, for example, it is mostly the wealthy and those who are prospering that entertain harsh and uncharitable opinions respecting the jobless. How very quick they are to indiscriminately brand all of the unemployed as ‘skivers’ and feckless freeloaders, when such is clearly not the case.

A large part of the problem, dear friend, is that short-term thinking is endemic among the rich and powerful (not that it is not the case to a certain degree among us all). The wealthy and huge corporations have lost the ability and desire to contemplate the larger picture, even when it comes to providing for their own progeny. It admits of no doubt that greed controls them. This is not a case of the politics of envy, more a case of the politics of greed and callous self-interest. It may not immediately be self-evident but the current monetary system is guaranteed to fail by default because it shifts wealth to the richest year in and year out. This is, alas, one of the chief reasons why we are all getting poorer (in real terms).

The poor are becoming poorer and the gap between the rich and poor is increasingly widening, certainly here in Britain. The government of the day speaks of economic recovery but that is only applicable to the affluent middle-class, it is plainly not the case for the jobless, sick and or even working poor. Many of these are experiencing and will continue to experience severe hardship and marginalization. The fact is that the rising tide is lifting fewer and fewer boats and leaving more and more to rot in the sediment - both at a personal and a national level. Concentration is rampant.

It is not, dear friend, that the supply-side principle “if you build it, they will come” is no longer true. It is more that we appear to have passed a tipping point, where a sickening amount of wealth has been concentrated at the top, they no longer need to bother to build anything. In short it has become more economically efficient to buy countries’ economic policy than to create value in order to sell it on. Now if one can control government to favour the richest, whilst raising obstacles for new entrants, thus increasing their share of the pie exponentially, what is the incentive to grow the pie?

This is applicable to both companies and individuals. Your small business gets a clobbered by taxes and business rates, whilst big business turns around and says to the government, “This is how much tax I wish to pay this year, take it or leave it”. They also hold government to ransom by childishly threatening to depart from their homeland if they do get their way. The rich no longer create jobs, through a process of consolidation, take-over and merger, they actually destroy them. Unfortunately, dear friend, so called ‘zero hours contracts’ are the hard way of the future for young and old alike. In a society that is hungry, desperate and devoid of political engagement or healthy unionism, why should and employer offer terms and conditions that give individual workers any standing?

Finally, dear friend, we have sadly come to measure, to an increasing extent, people’s success by their bank balance, spending power and other assorted trappings. We do the same as regards the economic success of governments; measure it by an aggregated data set that woefully fails to take into account wealth distribution, educational achievement, innovation, or even the welfare and health of the population they claim to represent. It is high time that we shift this warped perspective before it is too late, otherwise our daily lives will only become evermore unpleasant and anxiety filled. Moreover, there will be no place for those poor souls who, for genuine reasons, are just losers in the struggle to survive, for example those afflicted with chronic mental health problems. It will be more of a dog eat dog world than it is now and that is a jolly frightening prospect for all of us.

God bless and Goodbye. This will be my final post in this thread but may I take this opportunity to wish you and all other contributors/viewers a jolly splendid and relaxing weekend. Excellent discussion, if I may say.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

In Christos
 
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