Do we always have to agree with the Church?

[krisn]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I effectively explain the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks for the help.

 

[krisn]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I help her understand the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I help her understand the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks.

A Catholic cannot reject any Dogma or Doctrine taught by the Church.

A Catholic can disagree with Church discipline or laws as long as they follow and obey them.

One of the first and hardest things to get over is that we are NOT God and must actually seek to do His will, not our own.

“She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her.” Why does she think that God has given her the ability to determine what is or is not right? God does give her the ability to decide if she will do what is or is not right, but not to determine what is or is not right, He determines that.

 

[Eileen_T]

The “key” is obedience. Even if we don’t understand the reasoning why the Church teaches a certain Doctrine, we are obliged to obey that teaching.

There is no difficulty in the Church’s teaching on pre-marital sex. It is called fornication and is condemned by Scripture.

Your friend’s problem is not with the Church, her problem is with God.

There are many NT Scriptural verse dealing with fornication. Here are two:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that you should abstain from fornication;

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[dal11]

Tell her you don’t believe in the church’s teaching that murder is wrong. You believe you should be able to go up to anybody, anytime and murder them. WHen she tells you your crazy, that murder is wrong, tell her “wait you get get to believe what part of the church’s teachings are right but I don’t get the same priviledge”. Should I just come to you everytime I need to know which ones I should believe or disbelieve. That would make you pope wouldn’t it."

 

[Fidelis]

She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I help her understand the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks.

Tell her she is placing herself in the same sordid position the Israelites were in at the end of the Book of Judges:

In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what he thought best.

 

[CRW]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I help her understand the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks.

Unfortunately, you friend is very honest and may be one of the few Catholic’s that will preach what they live. We live in a Catholic Church that has less then 30 percent attending Sunday or Holy Days of Obligation Mass. What percent of Catholic’s participate in birth control? Abortion? Adultery, etc? Prayer and Adoration I guess is the only answer, if there is one, to turn our Church into God’s Church again.

 

[kellie]

I don’t think God ever said it would be easy to get in to His Kingdom.

He wants us to work our butts off to live with Him eternally.

I find some of the Church’s teachings frustrating too, as I am human and I sin.

I agree with the teachings, as God made them with perfect sense, but I will admit they are so very hard to obey.

Your friend is saying her opinion is right for her, what she means is she is happy to sin as it is easier to sin and not do the hard work.

Pray for her, and for all of us, for we are all subject to incapability of sticking to every teaching 24/7.

 

[I_A]

Just because she doesn’t agree with the church doesn’t make her not a Catholic, it just means shes wrong. What is she arguing, that premairital sex isn’t a sin, premaritial sex is a sin but everyone for me? That’s just silly. No, its not okay, but if someone were to say to me “gravity doesn’t exist,” I’d say, “it doesn’t matter if you believe that or not, your still gonna fill it’s effects.”

If she is having sex outside of marriage she shouldn’t be reciving communion.

As for what you, an external force, can do about it: prayer is the only thing you can do. God is the only one who can chagne a person’s heart.

 

[Liberian]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I effectively explain the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks for the help.

Krisn,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

Your German friend is free to disagree with the Catholic Church just as she is free to disagree with the multiplication table. She can have her opinions, but she is just as wrong in the one case as she is in the other case.

Speaking from a perspective of four decades and some, I can say with some assurance that “pre-marital sex” is not a difficult issue. I have seen the emotional devastation that comes from ending a sexual relationship and really the only good sexual relationship is a lifelong sexual relationship. If a person is not willing to make the commitment of entering a marriage covenant, that person should not enter a sexual relationship. It is that simple.

• Liberian

 

[Santos]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her. How can I effectively explain the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Many thanks for the help.

Krisn, Tell your friend that Jesus Christ built His Church upon Peter (Mt 16:18), leaving for us a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name…

Jesus Christ’s Church is
1) guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Jn 16:13)
2) led by a chief shephard (Jn 21:17)
3) with bishops, priests and deacons (1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17)
4) protected, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Mt 16:18)

In Colossians 1:18, we see that Jesus Christ and the Church are “one”.

These are the words of Jesus Christ to St. Peter; the first Pope, and the Church:
“Whoever listens to you, listens to me. Whoever rejects you (Pope-Church) rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)

So as “Catholics”, when we’re following the teachings of the Church, we’re following the teachings of God, and when we’re rejecting the teachings of the Church, we’re rejecting the teachings of God.

**Does she have to follow the teachings of God? **
No, she has a “free will” to choose.

But remind your friend about the “Big Lie” to which all death entered the universe, “that we could be like gods, deciding for ourselves what is good and what is bad” (Gn 3:4) seperate from God’s law…

We can choose to be disobedient to God and follow that ancient serpent, that we know as the devil; the father of all lies…

Hoped this helped,
Santos

 

[jbuck919]

The premise of the original post strikes me as being slightly off base. I know that there are many here who would disagree with what I am about to say, but if we were here only to pat each other on our orthodox backs, what would be the point?

People are designed (presumably by God) to question, and not take every speck of teaching in the name of religion as normative writ without some sense of having the God-given gift of a discriminating intelligence. Frankly, if you want to be a down-to-the-iota member of the faithful, go join some bizarre sect such as the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It is, of course, comforting to think that “my religion” has all the answers and proper teachings. That does rather make things easier, doesn’t it? Until one discovers that one has a homosexual child, or one who is pregnant from a rape, or knows that she cannot risk another pregnancy, or has been deserted by a husband. We don’t create situations of moral relativism in which God himself presumably is making the choice difficult, but we do have to deal with them, and sometimes absolute teaching doesn’t quite get the job done. I think we want to be Catholic Christians, members of (rightly) the greatest religion there has ever been, and not members of some bizarre sect like the ones I mentioned before that holes itself up in some corner surrounded by a false sense of righteous perfection by default.

Does this, to my mind, moral dilemma, make unreasonable demands on us? Of course it does. We were not meant to find this easy. Jesus said, “love your enemy,” “turn the other cheek,” “give up all that you have.” It has been acknowledged by many writers, even those thinking outisde the paradigms of Christianity, that this is what made Jesus unique: His moral demands are unlimited, and in fact unfulfillable in human terms. That exalts us in our striving, where a baseless slavery to the letter of a 500-page catechism does, well, something else.

 

[Santos]

People are designed (presumably by God) to question, and not take every speck of teaching in the name of religion as normative writ without some sense of having the God-given gift of a discriminating intelligence. Frankly, if you want to be a down-to-the-iota member of the faithful, go join some bizarre sect such as the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It is, of course, comforting to think that “my religion” has all the answers and proper teachings. That does rather make things easier, doesn’t it? Until one discovers that one has a homosexual child, or one who is pregnant from a rape, or knows that she cannot risk another pregnancy, or has been deserted by a husband. We don’t create situations of moral relativism in which God himself presumably is making the choice difficult, but we do have to deal with them, and sometimes absolute teaching doesn’t quite get the job done. I think we want to be Catholic Christians, members of (rightly) the greatest religion there has ever been, and not members of some bizarre sect like the ones I mentioned before that holes itself up in some corner surrounded by a false sense of righteous perfection by default.

Does this, to my mind, moral dilemma, make unreasonable demands on us? Of course it does. We were not meant to find this easy. Jesus said, “love your enemy,” “turn the other cheek,” “give up all that you have.” It has been acknowledged by many writers, even those thinking outisde the paradigms of Christianity, that this is what made Jesus unique: His moral demands are unlimited, and in fact unfulfillable in human terms. That exalts us in our striving, where a baseless slavery to the letter of a 500-page catechism does, well, something else.

It seems like your having a problem of your own and need to begin a whole new thread to adequately address it. As a Christian, the straight and narrow path is a very difficult path to take, but as Christ say’s “we are not of this world”. We are seperated from this world and the worldy things which rule it.

These are the biggest things that we as Christians can learn from our non-Catholic (protestant) Christian brothers. As it is seen by many Christians, this is a “Real Relationship” with Jesus Christ, and because not many Catholics live as such, to a disciplined life walking in the path of righteousness, we are so often seen as “non-christians” or “not-saved”. I think we should change this stareotype of Catholic Christians, don’t you?..

Many evangelical bible christians who want to be a down-to-the-iota member of the faithful, are coming to that fullfilment within the Catholic Church, but you would rather have them go to the “Mormons” or the “Jehovah’s Witnesses”? I don’t think so.

If you “Do” want to be a down-to-the-iota member of the faithful then I would “Not” suggest going to the “Mormons” or the “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, I would suggest you to stay right here in the Catholic Church, and “Live” the faith.

**As for the “luke-warm”, **neither are they kicked out of the Catholic Church, this too is their home.

Now to clarify something Krisn is a catholic, seeking catholic advice. Within the Catholic Church we have spiritual advisor’s known as priests. So the advice that would be given by a spiritual advisor, would not be of their own oppinions, but rather of the word of God. A pastor would also give advice based on scriptual teachings. I am by no means perfect nor do I claim to be, but if I am to give advice, I do not believe there is any better advice then that given by “God”.

Here was the question: “How can I effectively explain the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?” jbuck919 You went way off the target, but that’s Okay.

Krisn tell your friend that at baptism she was born of the “Holy Spirit” and the “Holy Spirit” dwells within her." The word of God, says that her body is the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells within that temple (1 Cor 3:16), Therefore, her body is holy and sacred and should not be “Defiled” or “Desecrated”, it is a pure, holy temple of the Most High God.

It is only through the covenant of marriage, where God makes two people “One” body. Thus making the two bodies that are separately pure and holy, “One” temple belonging to God. A bond united by God that is also “holy” and “sacred”, which no man can seperate.

My advice is that when you give advice to your family or friends “even if we may not be living the perfect example” give to them the advice which is “Good”. Only God is “Good”. In this we are not “hypocrites”, we just acknowledge that we are imperfect and poor sinners ourselves, and our oppinions may not be the best, but we acknowledge the Creator and “Our Father” who’s Word is “Perfect”.

God Bless You,
Santos

 

[jbuck919]

Well, I’ve been hugely and, frankly, wilfully misunderstood here before, and it happens every time I post on a topic like this, so I guess I’d better get used to it. Among other things, it is impossible for any human institution, even one ordained from God, to anticipate every moral contingency that might face us either individually or collectively. But I said I knew there were people here who would strongly disagree with me, so I was prepared to take my lumps.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

People are designed (presumably by God) to question, and not take every speck of teaching in the name of religion as normative writ without some sense of having the God-given gift of a discriminating intelligence. Frankly, if you want to be a down-to-the-iota member of the faithful, go join some bizarre sect such as the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

God didn’t design us to question His Truth, He revealed even that which is within grasp of our reason in order for us to be sure of what is right and wrong.

From Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis-

1. It is not surprising that such discord and error should always have existed outside the fold of Christ. For though, absolutely speaking, human reason by its own natural force and light can arrive at a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, Who by His providence watches over and governs the world, and also the natural law, which the Creator has written in our hearts, still there are not a few obstacles to prevent reason from making efficient and fruitful use of its natural ability. The truths that have to do with God and the relations between God and men, completely surpass the sensible order and demand self-surrender and self-abnegation in order to be put into practice and to influence practical life. Now the human intellect, in gaining the knowledge of such truths is hampered both by the activity of the senses and the imagination, and by evil passions arising from original sin. Hence men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful.

3. It is for this reason that divine revelation must be considered morally necessary so that those religious and moral truths which are not of their nature beyond the reach of reason in the present condition of the human race, may be known by all men readily with a firm certainty and with freedom from all error.1]

1. Furthermore the human intelligence sometimes experiences difficulties in forming a judgment about the credibility of the Catholic faith, notwithstanding the many wonderful external signs God has given, which are sufficient to prove with certitude by the natural light of reason alone the divine origin of the Christian religion. For man can, whether from prejudice or passion or bad faith, refuse and resist not only the evidence of the external proofs that are available, but also the impulses of actual grace.

It is, of course, comforting to think that “my religion” has all the answers and proper teachings. That does rather make things easier, doesn’t it? Until one discovers that one has a homosexual child, or one who is pregnant from a rape, or knows that she cannot risk another pregnancy, or has been deserted by a husband.

The Church has all the answers to those situations, but because of the Fall, we sinful human beings do struggle with such things, i.e. that is a bad thing.

We don’t create situations of moral relativism in which God himself presumably is making the choice difficult, but we do have to deal with them, and sometimes absolute teaching doesn’t quite get the job done.

So, when doesn’t “absolute teaching” get the job done?

That exalts us in our striving, where a baseless slavery to the letter of a 500-page catechism does, well, something else.

You misunderstand the use of such things. What role do you think authoritative teaching has?

 

[teachccd]

It is, of course, comforting to think that “my religion” has all the answers and proper teachings. That does rather make things easier, doesn’t it? Until one discovers that one has a homosexual child, or one who is pregnant from a rape, or knows that she cannot risk another pregnancy, or has been deserted by a husband. We don’t create situations of moral relativism in which God himself presumably is making the choice difficult, but we do have to deal with them, and sometimes absolute teaching doesn’t quite get the job done. I think we want to be Catholic Christians, members of (rightly) the greatest religion there has ever been, and not members of some bizarre sect like the ones I mentioned before that holes itself up in some corner surrounded by a false sense of righteous perfection by default.

Christianity in and of itself is a sect where we are followers of Jesus Christ and adhere to His teachings.If we choose to refute those teachings then we imitate those that left Him in His bread of life discourse in John chapter six. His Church founded on Peter and guided throughout the centuries by the Holy Spirit is to continue the incarnation until He comes again. It’s not “my religion” that has all the answers and proper teachings. It’s Jesus Christ and the Church that is nothing less than His presence today. If we pick and choose those things that comfort us through different trials in our lives without the concern of Church teachings then we are protesting the Magesterium. Martin Luther did this in 1517 and we call this protestantism. We have to choose either our way or His way. There is only one Gospel. (See Ephesians 4:4-5):bible1:

 

[AlegreFe]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches,

She doesn’t have to agree. But she does have to obey.

If we don’t agree with something that the Church teaches it is our obligation to be humble and obey. That is what the first Christian did. She was very humble and she obeyed. I’m glad she did, because we now have Jesus!

We need to obey. But God gave us an intellect also so that we can study what the Church teaches if we need to “test” it. So that’s what we should do if we disagree. But first and foremost we must obey.

especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex. She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her.

She is going by her feelings and that is not right. We walk by faith and not by sight! No one is to trust their “gut feelings” for what the Truth is. That is why God gave us His Church, so that He can give us the Authority here on earth to teach us what Jesus taught the Apostles.

How can I effectively explain the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

We can present people with Scripture verse after Scripture verse and sometimes that does not help. These people only see what they want to see. If they consider themselves “catholic” and don’t want to obey, then I consider them “dead men walking” because they don’t have Faith along with what they need to do and that is to be Humble and to Obey. So pray for your friend.

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea
Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people
say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist,
others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the
prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that
I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the
Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you,
Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has
not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my church, and the gates
of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of
heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on
earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[AlegreFe]

Am I seeing double. Or did you double-post this thread?

 

[Santos]

I have a German friend who considers herself Catholic, but admits she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches, especially on the “difficult” moral issues such as pre-marital sex.

Krisn tell your friend that at baptism she was born of the “Holy Spirit” and the “Holy Spirit” dwells within her." The word of God, says that her body is the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells within that temple (1 Cor 3:16), Therefore, her body is holy and sacred and should not be “Defiled” or “Desecrated”, it is a pure, holy temple of the Most High God.

It is only through the covenant of marriage, where God makes two people “One” body. Thus making the two bodies that are separately pure and holy, “One” temple belonging to God. A bond united by God that is also “holy” and “sacred”, which no man can seperate.

How can I help her understand the role of the Church as our infallible guide in faith and morals and what’s the proof?

Krisn, The proof is in God’s Word, tell your friend that Jesus Christ built His Church upon Peter (Mt 16:18), leaving for us a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name…

Jesus Christ’s Church is
1) guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Jn 16:13)
2) led by a chief shephard (Jn 21:17)
3) with bishops, priests and deacons (1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17)
4) protected from the gates of hell, which will not prevail against it (Mt 16:18)

In Colossians 1:18, we see that Jesus Christ and the Church are “one”.

These are the words of Jesus Christ to St. Peter; the first Pope, and the Church:
“Whoever listens to you, listens to me. Whoever rejects you (Pope-Church) rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)

So as “Catholics”, when we’re following the teachings of the Church, we’re following the teachings of God, and when we’re rejecting the teachings of the Church, we’re rejecting the teachings of God.

She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her.

Remind your friend about the “Big Lie” to which all death entered the universe, “that we could be like gods, deciding for ourselves what is good and what is bad”, (Gn 3:4) seperate from God’s law, we become the objective norm to all that is right and wrong. What a “Big Lie”!

We can choose to be disobedient to God and follow that ancient serpent, (Gen 3:4) that we know as the devil; the father of all lies…

My advice is that when you give advice to your family or friends, even if we may not be living the perfect example, give to them the advice which is “Good”. Only God is “Good”. In this we are not “hypocrites”, we just acknowledge that we are imperfect and poor sinners ourselves, and our oppinions may not be the best, but we acknowledge the Creator and “Our Father” who’s Word is “Perfect”.

God Bless You,
Santos

 

[Karin]

A Catholic cannot reject any Dogma or Doctrine taught by the Church.

A Catholic can disagree with Church discipline or laws as long as they follow and obey them.

One of the first and hardest things to get over is that we are NOT God and must actually seek to do His will, not our own.

“She thinks her opinion is valid because it’s right for her.” Why does she think that God has given her the ability to determine what is or is not right? God does give her the ability to decide if she will do what is or is not right, but not to determine what is or is not right, He determines that.

What a wonderful post…thank you…I think I may have to repost it on several other threads where some Catholics feel it is ok to go against the Church and its teachings just because it is right for them!