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Cathryn
Guest
No, Catholics don’t have to tithe as under the Old Covenant. Jesus is calling us to a higher standard of sacrificial giving.
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RosieWatrs
Guest
To those who are saying that we do not have to tithe, I am sorry, but you are flat out wrong. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. You are called to tithe AND a life of stewardship.
It can be an uncomfortable idea at first, but once you begin to take that first step, the fear goes away. Trust in Him and figure out exactly what it is in you that is presenting an obstacle to this teaching.
Please, please do not take my word for it. Maybe Fr. Larry can explain it better?
thereasonforourhope.org/online_order/cart_detail.php?productID=8
It can be an uncomfortable idea at first, but once you begin to take that first step, the fear goes away. Trust in Him and figure out exactly what it is in you that is presenting an obstacle to this teaching.
Please, please do not take my word for it. Maybe Fr. Larry can explain it better?
thereasonforourhope.org/online_order/cart_detail.php?productID=8
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Bookcat
Guest
This really is not the case…I understand where some confusion can come in here …but it really is not the case…as one will find in the pages of the New Testament…as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church…and Canon Law…
That one is required to tithe is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church…nor her discipline.
Yes we are to give of our our means…yes we are to be good stewards…but the Catholic Church does NOT require a tithe.
But I am glad so many want to follow Christ who “loves a cheerful giver”…
Jimmy Akin the Senior Apologist of Catholic Answers explains here:
jimmyakin.org/2006/02/tithing_giving_.html
Be sure to read the detail…(there can be other norms by local Bishops)
and from a year earlier jimmyakin.org/2005/01/tithing.html
and from Catholic Answers:
“Q:
I’m not sure how much I’m supposed to be tithing. Is it 10 percent of my gross income or 10 percent of my net income?
”
A:
The obligation to tithe (i.e., to give 10 percent of one’s gross income) was binding only on the Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law (Matt. 5:17), so even Jews are no longer bound by it. But this doesn’t mean we’re not obligated to support the Church—we are—but there is no longer a specific percentage required.
…
There is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift."
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/tithe
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RosieWatrs
Guest
Someone asked do Catholics have to tithe. The answer is yes by doctrine and by tradition. Again, I mean no disrespect to Jimmy or anyone else and I am certain this is a hot topic to no matter who hears it.
However, the doctrine is pretty clear.
Here is what the Catholic Catechism says:
2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"248 Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."249 In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:250
Traditional teaching: The fifth precept (“You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”) means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability. (CCC 2042-2043)
I hope this helps.
Rosie
However, the doctrine is pretty clear.
Here is what the Catholic Catechism says:
2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"248 Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."249 In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:250
Traditional teaching: The fifth precept (“You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”) means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability. (CCC 2042-2043)
I hope this helps.
Rosie
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Bookcat
Guest
Such is simply not the case. The Catholic Church DOES NOT require us to Tithe
(Nor will anyone be able to produce any document that says Catholics are! …in fact the Documents of the Church state rather one is to give according to ones ability…not some set percent…some very rich may give 30% for all I know…)
(though Bishops in the US for example can establish particular norms in their area…or give recommendations etc)
When the Catholic Catechism says:
2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe…
It is NOT saying that Christians are obligated to Tithe…such is not binding on Christians…nor is the abstaining from pork…or circumcision…(See St. Paul) …the CCC us simply “recounting” how it was in Old Testament…
WE are Christians!
The Catechism does say though:
The fifth precept (“You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”) means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability. (CCC 2042-2043)
Amen!
and
Canon Law (Roman/Latin) issued by the Authority of the Pope:
Can. 222 §1. The Christian faithful are obliged to assist with the needs of the Church so that the Church has what is necessary for divine worship, for the works of the apostolate and of charity, and for the decent support of ministers.
§2. They are also obliged to promote social justice and, mindful of the precept of the Lord, to assist the poor from their own resources.
Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
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RosieWatrs
Guest
I think we’re getting into an issue of semantics here. Of course the church can’t “require” you to tithe, how would they know if you did or did not? They would not know that any more than they would know if you went to confession prior to receiving communion.
We can not ignore that this teaching on tithe does exist, every example of our tradition on the subject of tithing does exists and all can be found as a matter of historical record. From the New Testament (Acts 20:35) to the present day, 294. Principles and Philosophy of Tithing: Pope John Paul II said: “We cannot stand idly by, enjoying our own riches and freedom if, in any place the Lazarus of the twentieth century [or any century] stands at our doors.” I recommend reading it.
Tithing is a vital exercise for any Christian and a doctrine within the Catholic Church. the model used does come from the old Jewish tradition of 10%. (When we say “Jewish” tradition, let’s not forget that it came from God and was handed down to the Jews.)
Others have responded to this thread in far better fashion that I have done. They have offered Biblical quotes, cited credible sources, given papal directives and even offered personal testimony for their own sakes supporting the matter. If anyone still has questions about if they are to give or not and how much, they sould seek the advice of thie parish priest and search themselves.
If I gave 50% or even 100% and did not do so with a cheerful heart, then I have given nothing at all. If the thought of giving 10% is aberrant to you, then you have your answer. Is it better to be clever than right?
No, the church can’t require 10%. They can’t require you to pray either, or be forgiving and act in faith in love. They can’t require you to DO anything. That has to come from you and your want to do so. That is the key idea here. - Changing your wants in just a small step on your way to becoming something else.
We can not ignore that this teaching on tithe does exist, every example of our tradition on the subject of tithing does exists and all can be found as a matter of historical record. From the New Testament (Acts 20:35) to the present day, 294. Principles and Philosophy of Tithing: Pope John Paul II said: “We cannot stand idly by, enjoying our own riches and freedom if, in any place the Lazarus of the twentieth century [or any century] stands at our doors.” I recommend reading it.
Tithing is a vital exercise for any Christian and a doctrine within the Catholic Church. the model used does come from the old Jewish tradition of 10%. (When we say “Jewish” tradition, let’s not forget that it came from God and was handed down to the Jews.)
Others have responded to this thread in far better fashion that I have done. They have offered Biblical quotes, cited credible sources, given papal directives and even offered personal testimony for their own sakes supporting the matter. If anyone still has questions about if they are to give or not and how much, they sould seek the advice of thie parish priest and search themselves.
If I gave 50% or even 100% and did not do so with a cheerful heart, then I have given nothing at all. If the thought of giving 10% is aberrant to you, then you have your answer. Is it better to be clever than right?
No, the church can’t require 10%. They can’t require you to pray either, or be forgiving and act in faith in love. They can’t require you to DO anything. That has to come from you and your want to do so. That is the key idea here. - Changing your wants in just a small step on your way to becoming something else.
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Bookcat
Guest
There is no requirement to tithe…(nor does the New Testament per se of course) and we need to not say there is…it confuses people…yes…be generous etc…
Also is not true that the Church does not require you to do anything …there are various requirements which bind in conscience! Including Mass on Sundays and Holy days…and giving to support the Church…
Got to run…have a Blessed Lords Day!
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RosieWatrs
Guest
What then do we do with the fifth precept of the Catholic Church?
You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.
“The fifth precept means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”
You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.
“The fifth precept means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”
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Bookcat
Guest
You follow it!
This does not mean one is obliged by the Church to give 10% or any particular %. One is not.
One is to give according to ones ability. As countless New Testament texts note (none of which talk about tithe…for the Christian is not under the Torah) …with and with Christian generosity. (One is also to give in various ways…such as support on ones Catholic School…to “requests” etc from the Bishop etc.
But this is not the Tithe …one must assist the Church…but there is no universal percentage etc…no tithe.
See in particular 2 Cor. 9:6–7
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Pug
Guest
Current Church law does not require an exact giving of 10% of gross income or of sheep and goats, or of agricultural produce, or any such thing. But, I see no insurmountable reason to say that nothing resembling a tithe might ever come about. There were tithes applied to various people over the history of the Church. They appear to have been quite serious about the concept too, since the council of Trent mentions that one is excommunicated for not paying them in full. Twenty-fifth session, chapter 12.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Jesus Christ dispensed us from all of the OT disciplines; these are replaced by the disciplines and Sacraments of the NT.
“It [the holy Roman church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally.”
Council of Florence, SESSION 11, 4 February 1442.
However, the moral law has not been dispensed, and the moral law requires us to give to those in need and to support the Church. The NT concept of tithing, which is mentioned by some Councils, is not the OT discipline, but rather the NT concept of giving generously in cooperation with grace and providence.
“It [the holy Roman church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally.”
Council of Florence, SESSION 11, 4 February 1442.
However, the moral law has not been dispensed, and the moral law requires us to give to those in need and to support the Church. The NT concept of tithing, which is mentioned by some Councils, is not the OT discipline, but rather the NT concept of giving generously in cooperation with grace and providence.
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Bookcat
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Pug
Guest
Yes, I think God wants us to give generously, from a willing heart.
I agree the moral law contains no fixed percentage to be donated. (I think that is what you mean by “universal law”, but I may be borrowing Ron’s words and putting them into your post in my head.)
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Pug
Guest
I don’t always understand your posts readily, so I am unsure. In my mind you could mean some variant of one of two things:
a) The reason or legal foundation that allows the Church to make regulations on giving is not the premise that the varied tithes mentioned in the OT are still legally binding.
b) The Council of Trent did not envision a historical reality where many bishops or priests were out there collecting actual collections of a required (by law, but not moral law) fixed 10% when it mentions the word “tithes”. Instead they used the word metaphorically for the idea of donations of all sorts freely given, and they were not making any reference to the phenomenon of tithes that seemed to be going on in that time period (Trent’s time period).
I agree with a, though I probably worded it poorly. I don’t think the tithes mentioned in the OT are binding. I do think they point to moral truths, like that helping widows and orphans and aliens and the poor/vulnerable/needy is something we must do.
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nada122
Guest
Hi,
Is not disobeying a Precept of the Catholic Church a mortal sin? I read it in Book 2 of My Catholic Faith by Bishop Morrow. Then, we should really give to support the needs of the Church, if not to tithe but to follow the 5th Precept.
5 Precepts of the Church:
Is not disobeying a Precept of the Catholic Church a mortal sin? I read it in Book 2 of My Catholic Faith by Bishop Morrow. Then, we should really give to support the needs of the Church, if not to tithe but to follow the 5th Precept.
5 Precepts of the Church:
- “You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation and rest from servile labour.”
- “You shall confess your sins at least once a year.”
- “You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season.”
- “You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church.”
- “You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.”
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ActuallyAquinas
Guest
Want to know what we do with our tithes, look in the Old Testament, silly!
Deut. 14:25-26:
“then you shall turn [your tithe] into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses, 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.”
So, go to the parish and spend your money in the store of the minister. As both T. Aquinas and Augustine said, “It is a duty to pay tithes, and whoever refuses to pay them takes what belongs to another” (Second Part of the Second Part, Q87).
Deut. 14:25-26:
“then you shall turn [your tithe] into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses, 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.”
So, go to the parish and spend your money in the store of the minister. As both T. Aquinas and Augustine said, “It is a duty to pay tithes, and whoever refuses to pay them takes what belongs to another” (Second Part of the Second Part, Q87).
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jerry_kelso
Guest
Actuallly Aquinas: You have to understand God dealt with the Jewish nation under different laws and commandments than the New Testament Church today. This is because they were under specific blessing and cursing system.
There were many different tithes and many were connected to agriculture. there were different tithes whether quarterly or once a year or every 7 years. This is not done today.
Malachi 3:7-12 shows the blessing and cursing for not bringing all the tithes into the storehouse.
The gentiles were never under the law; so what is the difference?
The primary differences are . 1. The specific blessing and cursing system
2. The nature and number of tithes and offerings.
3. Giving out of necessity.
We are blessed and set in Heavenly places because of who we are in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-6) not because we have to try to work up to the commandments of the Law Covenant. We are not under the curse; Galatians 3:10;13
.Tithes given to the New testament church are from whatever job we work at and is a tenth of our income as a norm. So we consider ourselves giving 1 tithe.
The old testament man and woman were to love the Lord their God with all their hearts. However, they had to perform the commandments in order to learn to love God and so they would be blessed and prevent them from being cursed because of this type of requirement they gave out of necessity. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says not to give out of necessity.
I realize this is a lot of information so I’ll stop for now and come back.
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Bookcat
Guest
While yes we are obliged to give to support the Church etc …
The Church does not oblige one to tithe
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6158253&postcount=35
The Church does not oblige one to tithe
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6158253&postcount=35
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jerry_kelso
Guest
BookCat: We should support the church.
The Mosaic Law had command to give to be blessed. For failure they had specific judgements. they had to give out of necessity. The new testament church gives freely and not out of necessity.
The tenth is not the only or exact amount otherwise there would be no reason to purpose in our hearts what to give. God bless! Jerry Kelso
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RosieWatrs
Guest
Reading this discussion has given me better understanding as to why Catholics give so little. In fact, Catholics, as a group, give far less than any other Christian group. Amazing, isn’t it?
Mr. Charles E. Zech studied this phenomenon and I surely doubted his conclusions. I suppose it was my pride. However, Bookcat and others have made me a believer.
At least I have a stewardship parish to look forward to.
Mr. Charles E. Zech studied this phenomenon and I surely doubted his conclusions. I suppose it was my pride. However, Bookcat and others have made me a believer.
At least I have a stewardship parish to look forward to.
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