Do we as Catholics have to pay the tithe?

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You wrote: “No one is arguing that giving anything will get you into heaven, but that does sound an awful like like a “through faith alone” argument you are giving. Is that what you mean?”

No. It is not.

Here is a quote from Jim Blackburn of Catholic Answers:

“Scripture provides insight on how Christians should give:
On the first day of every week (Sunday), each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper. (1 Cor. 16:2)

The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor. 9:6–7)

There is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift.”

QUOTE ENDS.

We ARE obligated to support the Church materially (monetarily), as stated in the Precepts of the Church. But beyond this initial obligation, there are no rules. Total freedom. We can give whatever amount we want. 50 cents, 1 dollar, 10 dollars, whatever. If it is done, as Scripture says, “not reluctantly or under compulsion,” (2 Cor. 9:6–7) then what we give qualifies as a true gift – no matter how little or how much we decide to give.

This is official Catholic teaching. If you say otherwise, you are flatly wrong.

You wrote: “I am curious how you can say that works of charity and giving are not part of the Catholic church teachings when they are.”

I have never EVER said that.

All I said is that there is no SET PERCENTAGE of anything that you have to give that will get you to Heaven. Too many Catholics worry about giving a set percentage money to the Church, as if such a percentage will somehow “earn” them salvation, will “save” them somehow. And it won’t. God does not reward such legalistic giving. We give however we have “made up (our) mind,” according to Corinthians 2. Anything else would be dishonest to our consciences. And there is nothing in all official Catholic teaching that says otherwise.

You wrote: “I recommend the writings about Mother Theresa as a contemporary on the subject.”

So do I. Mother Theresa herself said: ““It’s not how much we give but how much love we put into giving.” She also said: “We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.”

She FURTHER said ““I am not sure exactly what heaven will be like, but I know that when we die and it comes time for God to judge us, he will not ask, ‘How many good things have you done in your life?’ rather he will ask, 'How much love did you put into what you did?”

This is perfectly in accord with Corinthians 2, as stated above. The point is love. Not how much you give. This is simple, official Catholic theology. Any other view is simply wrong.

You mentioned the Catechism. The ONLY thing the Catechism officially obligates us to do is to fulfill the Precepts of the Church. I am not saying this to be minimalistic. I am saying this because there is often a massive amount of fear and misunderstanding surrounding the Catholic teaching on giving.

The majority of Catholics I meet on the Internet are often terrified of going to Hell, for this tiny reason or for that tiny reason – for not having given “enough” (whatever THAT means) to get into Heaven. They worry because of this tiny misunderstanding of Church teaching, or that tiny misunderstanding. Even the majority of Catholics on Catholic Answers worry this way. This is a very great tragedy.

Catholic teaching is unbelievably gentle. It should terrify no one. I cannot get over how many Catholics are terrified of this gentle, undemanding religion.

If it is causing a Catholic pain to go beyond what his/her conscience is honestly moving him/her to give, then stop. There is absolutely no sin in this. Such so-called “minimum obligations” in the Precepts of the Church are there to protect us from despair. Not to destroy us with guilt. We should NEVER feel that the Church is “obligating” us to live up to a vast call to perfection that very few of us could ever achieve. The Church’s “minimum obligations” are there precisely so that following Christ will not be an intolerable burden on people. They were placed there out of love and compassion. I must say I’m very grateful for them.

That’s all I’m trying to say on this matter.

The Mormon Church, on the other hand, (for example,) has very crushing “minimum obligations.” Mormons require their members to tithe rigidly. Otherwise, none of them gets into Heaven.

I would not do well in a rigid system like that. I am quite a delicate person, morally speaking. Such a thing would utterly destroy me. I do not find it moral at all. So I defend the gentleness of official Catholic teaching to my last breath. It’s the most compassionate, undemanding religion I know. For me, it’s this or nothing.

As a Catholic, I regard it as one of my central (totally personal) purposes to destroy the image the Church seems to have of being harsh, strict and overly-demanding on its followers. No Catholic should ever add to this image. Such a thing would be evil beyond all reason. Most atheists I know AVOID the Church because of its’ seemingly strict, rule-based reputation. I am not going to do anything to enhance that reputation in any way.
 
It is expected. ‘these things you should have done, without neglecting the others.’ Matthew 23: 23
The Bible in a Verse

But now once at the conclusion of the ages Jesus has
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9: 26b
www.dtg16.com
 
In Mathew 23, Christ was talking to the Scribes and Pharisees. No one else.

The Scribes and the Pharisees tithed rigidly. Not out of love for God. They tithed to show off. They tithed to work their way into Heaven. Christ was telling them off for their lack of love. In essence, He was saying that their tithing was useless. No love. It didn’t matter how much they gave. It would not be rewarded by God.

And the Catholic Church, again, does not teach tithing.

This is perhaps the worst possible example you could have used.
 
Joseph:

Perhaps it is the word tithe that is the issue? (Tithe= 10%) Then drop it. Merely then consider 10% a goal for the striving heart. Like a marathon- no one just jumps up and runs 26 miles, they strive for some goal day after day. Some people take years and some never get there at all, but they keep trying. Does that make one who gives $1 a bad person? No, just in a different place on their journey. The Baltimore Catechism talks about being generous and cites the example of Cain & Able as an illustration. No love, no joy is the core fault.

But then, isn’t that the real issue? I have been thinking about your comments of meeting so many Catholics afraid of “giving” the wrong amount. That misses the point, doesn’t it? What if instead of arguing over 10%, you helped them with the real issue? Focusing on what they give and how they give is a symptom of not having a good relationship with God- not truly knowing him and being afraid.

Indeed how fragile is a relationship that a specific number is the make-or-break point? Besides, one can not trust someone they don’t know, now can they?

For a second, forget money and quietly consider a single leaf on a tree. Imagine holding it in your hands, feeling the texture of it and noting how this exquisite design allows sunlight to be used in a chemical reaction that nourishes the entire tree- one element of its being. Then consider there are hundreds, maybe thousands of such leaves on a single tree, working together to create that symphony of life- indescribable genius and beauty in the order of this created thing, living out its purpose. Now, consider that there are millions upon millions of trees, all doing the same thing on this created Earth. Yet, they are mere trees.

How much more wondrous is the human body with billions of such features and intricacies in design that work in order by design, to make up the single body, with all its wonders and abilities, for the sole purpose of housing a soul? It is almost beyond full comprehension and yet, here it is- a gift beyond words.

All of creation came from a single Being, derived from a mere thought and an expression of love. This Being can not be known except thought His attributes, so again recall the leaf and the wonders of that design. Contemplate the body and its functions. You begin to have the some semblance- as best as the human mind can conceive- of perfection.

Now consider, that Being, in his Power and infinite Might knows you- knows every hair on your head, knows every step you have taken, every word spoken and can see into the depths of your heart, into places even you fear to go. He knows your greatest faults, your weakness, your misery. He knows that you ARE misery and decay and are so far from His perfection. Still, He loves you- truly loves you the way no other can. The way no other create will ever be able to; total acceptance.

Everything He has ever written, every directive given, every plan set into motion is from His motive to love you. Not some arbitrary concept of “you”, but truly you, here and now. He has stretched his hand across time, from the beginning of all things and saw you- and immediately fell into love hopelessly, forever with you.

You are His beloved creation and this Being- this Creator of the Heavens and the Earth- has stooped down low, humbling himself to you in all your misery, in hopes that you will only let Him love you the way He wants to. In all his Power, He has given His mere creature free choice to accept it or not.

Do you know truly how much God loves the soul? Loves you?

Joseph, why not start there in quiet contemplation with these people before engaging in any obligatory conversation about what is or is not? Recommend at least weekly Adoration for an hour to help them contemplate who they are to God and learn to just listen to Him. He will take care of the rest.

Do not ever, ever offer one single dime in donation, a moment of charity or anything else until you first begin to understand the above statement of your reality. (“You” meaning the royal you of us all.) This is where it all begins, the falling in love part- the beginning of fulfilling your purpose. You must have this or the rest is just window dressing.

If that doesn’t work, you can always take the Fr. Larry approach. 🙂

*For those who don’t know- the Fr Larry Story. His confessor has often asked Fr Larry, “Larry, do you know how much God loves you?” And Fr Larry would reply, “Yes, Father” to which his confessor would smack him across the back of the head and admonish, “LIAR!”

Aren’t we all?*
 
YOU WROTE: “Do not ever, ever offer one single dime in donation, a moment of charity or anything else until you first begin to understand (that)…this is where it all begins, the falling in love (with God) part- the beginning of fulfilling your purpose. You must have this or the rest is just window dressing.”

Thank you very much for this response. It is the first truly Catholic sentiment I have seen on this matter in a very long time. If one is not free to give by the movement one’s own conscience, there can be no honest love in such “giving.” This is EXACTLY the official position of the Roman Catholic Church. The point is love. Any other view is simply wrong.

YOU WROTE: “What if instead of arguing over 10%, you helped them (people) with the real issue? Focusing on what they give and how they give is a symptom of not having a good relationship with God- not truly knowing him and being afraid.”

I don’t wish to be difficult here. But I would say it is more a symptom of having a bad understanding of Church teaching. It’s only when people do not understand the gentle teachings of the Church that they start discussing their OWN ideas about what to do to “earn” God’s “favor.” It is only then that problems start to arise.

I have encountered numerous people who have very harsh, cruel, dictatorial opinions about what it takes to “earn” salvation, and to somehow get on God’s “good side.” This is a deep moral tragedy. Such opinions can often develop after reading bad Catholic books filled with self-righteous affirmations, or by talking to people with harshly conservative views on Catholic belief.

The Roman Catholic Church always, always, always tries to follow the rational philosophy of Aristotle. It is never, EVER too strict, in any area, because people will simply get discouraged and then leave.

People do not do well with extremes. And the Church knows it. I have absolutely no tolerance at all for strictness in people. I fight against such strictness in any and every way I can, whenever I see it. The Church advocates a gentle balance in ALL areas of life, including giving. I am shocked that so many Catholics are not aware of this.

YOU WROTE: “Perhaps it is the word tithe that is the issue? (Tithe= 10%) Then drop it. Merely then consider 10% a goal for the striving heart. Like a marathon- no one just jumps up and runs 26 miles, they strive for some goal day after day. Some people take years and some never get there at all, but they keep trying.”

I appreciate this sentiment. But I must point out that 10% is not an official “goal” for giving in the Roman Catholic Church. Not to be nitpicky, but even if I was wealthy I doubt I would feel moved in my conscience to give 10% of my income to the Church (unless God makes it absolutely unmistakable that I should give - say, if the Church was in genuine trouble, or someone really needed my help.) I give whatever my conscience moves me to give honestly. Without any coercion at all. That is all we are truly required by the Catholic Church to do. Give honestly, according to our conscience. It is literally the only moral way to approach this.

I appreciate all of your comments very much. Thank you.
 
if you read tithing principles as contained in Deuteronomy 14 :22 to 29
you will see the tithe was
an act of worship
by you…for you…
and every third year for the levite, widow and orphan.
 
Once again, tithing is not taught be the Roman Catholic Church. End of story.

“Scripture provides insight on how Christians should give:

On the first day of every week (Sunday), each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper. (1 Cor. 16:2)

The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor. 9:6–7)

There is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift."
  • Quoted from Jim Blackburn, Catholic Answers:
 
One thing I just love about being Catholic that, whenever there is a question that forms in the mind of modern man, who is so enlightened and perceptive (* I write with a chuckle*), there exists, in over 2000 years of history a prior example of the exact same argument.

I have to say, Joseph, you were right in part- the 10% is not specifically noted, but the teaching of tithing is part of the Catholic teaching throughout the history of the church. To say otherwise is just, “flatly wrong. End of Story”.

I went back and read, thanks to this argument, the findings from the Council of Trent which taught that “the payment of tithes is due to God” ; even though the Church’s law no longer explicitly requires tithing, it remains obligatory and quotes the Church’s current law (CIC, c. 222):
 §1. The Christian faithful are obliged to assist with the needs of the Church so that the Church has what is necessary for divine worship, for apostolic works and works of charity and for the decent sustenance of ministers.
 §2. They are also obliged to promote social justice and, mindful of the precept of the Lord, to assist the poor from their own resources.

The Council argued that tithing best fulfills these obligations and people who accept a parish’s service but contribute nothing or significantly less than their fair share are guilty of grave injustice. (Note, there is no mention of 10% specifically, but of a “fair share”.)

So, what is the fair share?

I moved on to Aquinas as I personally have a bit more trust in the writings of a saint and a doctor of the church more than any clever writer on this board. (*No offense to any modern apologist, but even they would likely take a back seat to Aquinas. *)

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
SUMMA THEOLOGICA
Question 87- Four Articles

There are some who might find it interesting to read St Thomas Aquinas’ thoughts on this very argument. You can even purchase a copy on Amazon, btw.

ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS.ii.SS_Q87.SS_Q87_A1.html?highlight=tithe#highlight

sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum343.htm

It is an interesting write-up in that he first outlines the objections to tithing which are all voiced here, and then lays out his reply to each objection. What I found interesting is that he also does not mandate a 10% rule, but rather espouses an argument that it should be everything that remains:

“But the third kind of tithe which they had to eat with the poor, is increased in the New Law, for our Lord commanded us to give to the poor not merely the tenth part, but all our surplus, according to Lk. 11:41: “That which remaineth, give alms.” Moreover the tithes that are given to the ministers of the Church should be dispensed by them for the use of the poor.”
  • (I am suddenly hearing the children’s song about a fat camel, laden with treasure and something about sewing…Odd.)*
So, it seems there are documents in the church history, formal council treaties, and writings of sainted doctors of the church that all espouse the necessity of tithing.

(I could not find the copy of Synod of Mâçon in 585 which also reportedly mentions an obligation to tithe. If someone has access to it, I would be grateful for the sharing.)

I suppose the question is now, what we do with all of that? Maybe that’s where searching your heart comes in, I suppose.
 
YOU WROTE: “I went back and read…the findings from the Council of Trent which taught that “the payment of tithes is due to God” ; even though the Church’s law no longer explicitly requires tithing, it remains obligatory and quotes the Church’s current law (CIC, c. 222).”

The Council of Trent is referring to tithing in the Middle Ages. It is NOT referring to tithing today. And neither is the Catechism or Canon Law.

Tithes WERE required in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church. But not as charity. They were required as a tax. People had no choice but to pay them. Exactly the way regular taxes are required by the government today. Everyone pays them, or else. Tithes were part of the CIVIL law in the Middle Ages. They were not charity at all. You weren’t obligated to LIKE them. You were obligated to PAY them, or you could be hauled into court and prosecuted. Exactly like with the IRS today.

And we still pay plenty of taxes presently. It’s just that none of them go to the Church (except, perhaps, in Germany.)

I cannot understand why Catholics often confuse “tithes” (taxes) with charity. The Jewish tithes in the Old Testament were not charity, save for one type of tithe that was voluntary. Tithes in the Middle Ages were not charity. Taxes today are not charity, either. Tithing is not required by the Roman Catholic Church because the Church is more interested in encouraging genuine charity in its followers than in taxing them. It was only instituted in the Middle Ages out of necessity, for support of the expanding Church. And it’s hard to do charity if you’re already paying a tithe.

The medieval civil law mandating tithing was removed centuries ago. No Catholic should torture him or herself in their conscience for not “tithing” today. It is nothing more than an outdated medieval tax. I’m sure people hated it back then. Just as much as people hate paying taxes now.

If anyone doubts that tithing in the Middle Ages was merely an ordinary civil tax, read this, by Professor of Christian Ethics, Harry J. Flynn:

“The Council of Trent does say: “the payment of tithes is due to God.” But what did the Council mean by tithes? The answer is found in the conclusion Trent draws: “The holy council therefore orders all, of whatever rank and condition they may be, who are concerned with the payment of tithes, to pay henceforth those to which they are BOUND IN (CIVIL) LAW” (emphasis added); it then backs up this order with the penalty of excommunication. Plainly, Trent was legislating to enforce the Church TAXES exacted by law at that time; the Council was not teaching that all the faithful ought to contribute ten percent of their take-home pay.

{This exactly right. Just the way that the Church does not require ten percent from its members’ take-home pay today.}

(continued) What about the Scripture passages Trent cites (for example, Mathew 23)? Inasmuch as such legal requirements of the Old Testament are not binding on Christians, those passages do not show that Christians ought to contribute a specific amount, and the Council of Trent should not be interpreted as having made so unsound an argument. Rather, the Council should be understood as using those passages to show precisely what they can prove that is relevant to the decree’s purpose: God has made known to his People that they ought to pay the taxes required by just laws for Church support.

(continued) The current law of the Church (CIC, c. 222) does point out and confirm real obligations, but does not specify how much each family must contribute.

(continued) Tithes in Old Testament law—which applied only to the produce of farming and cattle breeding—were a tax on the people of ancient Israel. But, like many other elements of the old law that are not doctrinal or moral truths, the tithing laws were abrogated by Jesus’ new law, as St. Thomas points out (S.t., 2–2, q. 87, a. 1). The requirement of tithing was not reinstated by the early Church; but later (in medieval times), when laws were enacted requiring payments to support the Church, those payments were called “tithes.” Today, neither the law of the universal Church nor the particular law of the Church in the United States specifies how much is to be paid. The responsibility to support the Church thus must be fulfilled according to the conscientious judgment of the faithful, taking into account all their resources and their other genuine needs.”
  • Most Rev. Harry J. Flynn, Professor of Christian Ethics at Mount Saint Mary’s University in Emmitsburg, Maryland.
The Catholic Church has not required a tithe/tax in centuries. The Catechism and Canon Law have not changed in this regard in over five hundred years. No Catholic should feel obligated to tithe. Because the Catholic Church does not mandate tithing. Tithing, in the Church, was once simply a medieval tax, long ago. You never had to worry about whether or not to pay it. It was simply exacted from you, like taxes are today, or you went to jail. It was just the way society was back then. Just like society and its taxes are now.

Forget about tithing. Unless you do it voluntarily, there’s no point. Catholics are not obligated to tithe. It’s extremely strange to think of tithing as an “obligation,” anyway. Even when civil law required medieval Catholics to tithe, this was simply a forced tax. Not a “moral obligation” in any way EXCEPT as a tax. You paid it, or else. There is no difference between that and the taxes we pay now.
 
Also, you mentioned Saint Thomas Aquinas:

“I moved on to Aquinas as I personally have a bit more trust in the writings of a saint and a doctor of the church more than any clever writer on this board. (No offense to any modern apologist, but even they would likely take a back seat to Aquinas.)”

The writings of the Saints are not part of the Deposit of Faith. No Catholic is obligated to believe or follow them. They are total extras. It is fine if you wish to investigate then. But it is not a requirement in any way.

It can be interesting to look at the writings of the Saints. But they can be unpleasant if you feel you have to live up to every little thing. This is precisely why the Catholic Church does not obligate Catholics to believe such writings.

Some Saints had very harsh opinions about this and that. Even the philosophy of Saint Thomas Aquinas is totally unnecessary for a Roman Catholic to adhere to. THAT is official Roman Catholic teaching. And the writings of the Saints DO NOT take precedence over the Bible. Catholics are still to give as they have “made up (their) mind,” as per Corinthians 2. It is simply bizarre that so many people insist otherwise.
 
I must admit, I am a little confused. You had repeatedly said that tithing was not a teaching of the church. You have since written that it was for the Middle Ages, but not now. Interesting.

When presented with evidence that it was a teaching of the church, it gets dismissed as “a Middle Age” tax. That isn’t quite accurate and I think you know that as well.

So, will it do any good to now provide instruction on the US Conference of Catholic Bishops? They just updated the 10th anniversary edition which now includes language like:

“Once one chooses to become a disciple of Jesus Christ, stewardship is not an option.”

"…while many Catholics are generous in giving of themselves and their resources
to the Church, others do not respond to the needs in proportion to what they possess. "(pg11)

“Stewardship is part of discipleship…”(pg13)

This passage address your assertion that giving must be good with your continence.

“Lord’s way is not a way of comfortable living or of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship, scornfully calls “cheap grace.” This is not real grace but an illusion. It is what happens when people approach the following of Christ as a way to pleasant experiences and feeling good. Bonhoeffer contrasts this with “costly” grace. It is costly because it calls us to follow, and grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it requires a disciple for Jesus’ sake to put aside the craving for domination, possession, and control, and grace because it confers true liberation and eternal life. It is costly, finally, because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner.”

usccb.org/stewardship/disciplesresponse.pdf

You even dismissed Aquanias, which is a bold move since his master work was approved by the Vatican. In order to be considered a doctor of the church, you must not deter from the teachings (traditions and written dogmas) of the church. He did not.

At this point, each and every argument you have put forth has been addressed by various members of this discussion. It now comes down to just an opinion; which is really what this is about.

Is it “Jesus is my Savior!” or rather, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior”? Lord and master of everything…

Again, I would highly recommend quite a bit of quiet time in Adoration. Bring your opinion before Him and ask what He thinks. He speaks and will help you. Try the Rosary as well. Can’t hurt, right?
 
YOU WROTE: “When presented with evidence that it (tithing) was a teaching of the church, it gets dismissed as “a Middle Age” tax. That isn’t quite accurate and I think you know that as well.”

Actually, what I wrote is extremely accurate. It’s just something that virtually nobody talks about. Because the Church has not required a civil law tithe (tax) in over five hundred years. Tithing is NOT an official requirement of the Church today. There is simply no way around this. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING official Catholic teaching that says otherwise.

You quoted from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops:

“Once one chooses to become a disciple of Jesus Christ, stewardship is not an option.”

Stewardship does not equate to tithing. This really IS flatly wrong.

YOU WROTE: "…while many Catholics are generous in giving of themselves and their resources to the Church, others do not respond to the needs in proportion to what they possess. "(pg11)

Again, this does not support tithing, which the Catholic Church does not teach anyway. Nor does it contradict Corinthians 2, listed above.

YOU WROTE: “Stewardship is part of discipleship…”(pg13)

Stewardship doesn’t equate to tithing.

YOU WROTE: “This passage address(es) your assertion that giving must be good with your continence:

“Lord’s way is not a way of comfortable living or of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship, scornfully calls “cheap grace”…It is costly because it requires a disciple for Jesus’ sake to put aside the craving for domination, possession, and control, and grace because it confers true liberation and eternal life. It is costly, finally, because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner.”

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with tithing. Which again, the Catholic Church does not teach. You are trying to force a connection where none exists. This is a very deceptive tactic. No official documentation OF ANY KIND supports tithing in the Catholic Church – except for that which was legislated through CIVIL LAW during Medieval times, as indicated in my quotation above:

“The Council of Trent does say: “the payment of tithes is due to God.” But what did the Council mean by tithes? The answer is found in the conclusion Trent draws: “The holy council therefore orders all, of whatever rank and condition they may be, who are concerned with the payment of tithes, to pay henceforth those to which they are BOUND IN (CIVIL) LAW” (emphasis added); it then backs up this order with the penalty of excommunication. Plainly, Trent was legislating to enforce the Church TAXES exacted by law at that time; the Council was NOT teaching that all the faithful ought to contribute ten percent of their take-home pay.”

YOU WROTE: “You even dismissed Aquanias, which is a bold move since his master work was approved by the Vatican.”

No. It wasn’t.

I assume you are referring to the “Summa Theologica.” This is a work primarily of philosophy, applied to the Christian Faith. Pope John Paul II states in his encyclical “Fides et Ratio:”

“The Church has no philosophy of her own nor does she canonize any one particular philosophy in preference to others. The underlying reason for this reluctance is that, even when it engages theology, philosophy must remain faithful to its own principles and methods. Otherwise there would be no guarantee that it would remain oriented to truth and that it was moving towards truth by way of a process governed by reason.” (Pope John Paul II, “Fides et Ratio.”)

So although you might be partial to the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church does not hold that Catholics are obligated to believe them. They are mere extras. They are not part of the Deposit of Faith. It is not binding on Catholics to regard any particular statement by St. Thomas as necessary for salvation.

YOU WROTE: “In order to be considered a doctor of the church, you must not deter from the teachings (traditions and written dogmas) of the church. He (Thomas Aquinas) did not.”

Since this writing was done by a Saint, no Catholic is obligated to follow it – no matter WHAT it says. You can’t find the exact same ideas Thomas is writing about here in official Church teaching, because they don’t exist. Although he did not deviate from Church teaching, he DID provide his own additions to it. And additions do not count as official Church teachings.

I refer you what the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops ACTUALLY says about how Catholics are to give to the Church. It can be found at this link, in an article by Catholic Answers Apologist Jimmy Akin:

jimmyakin.org/2006/02/tithing_giving_.html

This should settle once and for all the issue of what the Church officially requires in terms of monetary giving. It is very undemanding and kind.

You seem very fixated on the idea that Catholics are required to tithe. They are not. No fixed percentage of money is required by the Church. I cannot understand why anyone would want to defend the idea of tithing. You seem to be insisting that the Church wishes to extract large amounts of money out of its people, when this is evidently not the case. Why? Is this what you feel is necessary for salvation? It would seem to be the only explanation.

If you are so desperate to tithe, perhaps you might consider turning you attention to one of the separated Catholic sects. TRADITIONALIST Catholic Churches, which often do not follow the Pope or the Vatican – usually not being part of the Roman Catholic Church at all - teach tithing. Traditionalist Churches very rigidly command their members to tithe. Failure to tithe is a mortal sin to Traditionalist Catholics, and will send one straight to Hell. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a Church with this mentality. Your theology certainly seems to be very much orientated in this direction, anyway.
 
Joseph:

You wrote," You seem very fixated on the idea that Catholics are required to tithe. They are not. No fixed percentage of money is required by the Church. I cannot understand why anyone would want to defend the idea of tithing. …"

Nope, not what I said.

I still think YOU are stuck on (tithe=10%). I said Stewardship is required and it is. I provided church documents and letters from recent Pontiffs and Bishops that proves this. I provided links to additional resources that explain this beautifully. Did you watch the video? You should.

You said tithing was never a requirement of the church, so I provided some evidence that it was. Then you said, well it was only in the Middle Ages as a government tax. (Which didn’t happen until later when governments in Germany and England decided to “help” administer" the tithe.) You even dismissed St Thomas Aquinas in favor of a College professor’s quote to better support your onion!

Let’s say I am a pro NBA player (which is a funny thought!) and I get injured a month before playoffs. The team doctor says I am done- permanently. So, I find another doctor and another. I keep looking until I find that one who says I can play and I forward that opinion to support how I feel.

Have I really changed the reality? No, just made myself ~feel~ better.

Reminds me of something my Bishop said recently…“Do not fear the devil’s power, fear his cleverness.” Semantics is just a way of being clever and helps us justify doing wrong.

So, have you been so intent on arguing that you didn’t get what I was saying?

Go back to Mark 12:41- 44 It’s all about where your heart is.

We as Christians have always, always been required to (tithe, acts of charity, Stewardship- insert whichever word you want) and admonished when we don’t. This is because it is GOOD for us. It is to be clear evidence of the love we say we have for Jesus and for our fellow man through Jesus. Faith without works is dead. DEAD- strong word.

My focus is on when you said you just weren’t feeling it. Find all the Jimmy quotes you want, it still doesn’t change a person’s heart from “I don’t”, “I can’t” and “I won’t”. *These words are symptoms. *

It isn’t about money and it isn’t about what you give away (time, talent, treasure). It is what that action DOES for you and does for others. Think about the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, Jesus took that boy’s meager rations as an offering, blessed it and increased it enough to feed a large crowd. This is a powerful example and one we are to emulate by giving what we can.

You spoke of fear of other Catholics about what percentage of income was “blessed”. Instead of helping them with love, you latched on to a number (10%) and missed the point.

Where there is fear, there is evidence of want in a relationship with Jesus as his disciple.

Shoot, even Judas helped the poor! But only because he was being watched. When he wasn’t, he was skimming the till left and right! Where’s the heart art?

This question is the same as the first one God ever asked of man, ‘Where art thou?’

God knew exactly where Adam was in the garden. What He was asking is- Adam, where’s your heart? Where’s your head?

So, the next time you encounter a fearful Catholic on this subject please, please do not say a word about tithe, not a word about 10%, not a word about Jimmy or any other evangelist. Please take them (I said TAKE as in you go, too!) to a place of Adoration, a prayer group, a homeless shelter, a homeless pet shelter, a nursing home, a food pantry or reading hour at the library.

What they are saying is my heart is hurting and I need help. Please help them by showing them the way to charity so they can understand the lesson that is before them.
 
YOU WROTE: “I still think YOU are stuck on (tithe=10%). I said Stewardship is required and it is.”

Then you contradict yourself immediately after:

“You said tithing was never a requirement of the church, so I provided some evidence that it was.”

Of COURSE, it was. It was a medieval civil tax. Your “evidence” does not prove that the Church requires tithing presently. You are wrong.

And stewardship is NOT tithing.

YOU WROTE: “You even dismissed St Thomas Aquinas in favor of a College professor’s quote to better support your onion!”

No. You are wrong here too. I quoted the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. They say VERY CLEARLY that the requirements for giving are left up to the individual Catholic Bishops in their diocese:

(Quote) “The National Conference of Catholic Bishops authorizes diocesan bishops to establish norms for Church support by the faithful for their own dioceses.”

And I quoted Jimmy Akin’s conclusion: “And my impression is that most bishops leave it pretty general, too, though I have heard suggested guidelines like giving one or two percent of your annual income for most parishioners…”

This agrees with MY OWN observations of how the Church operates. No Bishop I have EVER encountered teaches tithing. And even if one did, that would be an aberration, a heresy, and would be from outside Church teaching. There is no tithing taught as an official “obligation” in the Roman Catholic Church. No evidence evidence exists for this at all. You are wrong to say so.

YOU WROTE: “Then you said, well it was only in the Middle Ages as a government tax. (Which didn’t happen until later when governments in Germany and England decided to “help” administer" the tithe.)”

This is not what you implied before. You actually expressed intent to quote from the Synod of Macon, a document that SUPPORTS that tithing was required as a tax by the civil law in the Medieval period:

(Your words) “I could not find the copy of Synod of Mâçon in 585 which also reportedly mentions an obligation to tithe. If someone has access to it, I would be grateful for the sharing.”

This document is identified by the Catholic Encyclopedia as direct evidence that the Catholic Church required tithing in the Middle Ages, as a TAX through civil law at the time. My quote from the Council of Trent (above) directly mentions such a tax. Just like taxes today. Medieval Catholics were taxed – they were NOT required to voluntarily tithe. You will never find any official Church documentation that says otherwise.

YOU WROTE: “It isn’t about money and it isn’t about what you give away (time, talent, treasure).”

I think it is ENTIRELY about money and what you give away, in your writing. It’s all that really seems to matter to you.

YOU WROTE: “Semantics is just a way of being clever and helps us justify doing wrong.”
This is not very nice. You just don’t like what you’re hearing.

YOU WROTE: “You spoke of fear of other Catholics about what percentage of income was “blessed”. Instead of helping them with love, you latched on to a number (10%) and missed the point.”

I spoke about 10% tithing because YOU YOURSELF latched onto this number – or something very, very close to it. Tithing, after all, DOES mean 10%. You used Aquinas to support it. You quoted the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to support it. None of these sources represent official Church teaching about tithing. Because there IS no official teaching. Now you say there is not 10% required. Then why go through all the effort to prove that there is? This is very weak reasoning. You are contradicting yourself back and forth, many times in the same article.

YOU WROTE: “We as Christians have always, always been required to (tithe, acts of charity, Stewardship- insert whichever word you want)”

Stewardship does not equate to tithing (or to giving any other set percentage of money.) This is wrong.

Again, I quote the Council of Florence:

“It [the holy Roman church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law (in this case, tithing), which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally."
  • Council of Florence, SESSION 11, 4 February 1442.”
Tithing is firmly out.

YOU WROTE: “So, the next time you encounter a fearful Catholic on this subject please, please do not say a word about tithe, not a word about 10%, not a word about Jimmy or any other evangelist.”

“Fearful Catholics” will probably read what you have written here on this post. They will likely see the Aquinas quotes and become even more fearful and confused about whether the Church requires tithing or not. They will likely see your quotes from the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, and become (understandably) confused even further. Refusing to remove someone’s fear with accurate information is just plain wrong. Classifying Jimmy Akin’s information (the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops) with that of other evangelists, or with anything you claim supports tithing, is just confusing. And confusion is not from God at all.
 
YOU WROTE: “Please take them (I said TAKE as in you go, too!) to a place of Adoration, a prayer group, a homeless shelter, a homeless pet shelter, a nursing home, a food pantry or reading hour at the library.”

NONE of these things will help anybody, without correct, accurate information about Church teaching. Adoration, or anything else by itself, will fix nothing. Saying that it will is very bad advice. Leading people to believe that it will is misleading and damaging. If the reasoning that has led Catholics to be fearful about tithing is not directly addressed, then the problem has not been helped.

Again, you might want to consider investigating Traditionalist Catholicism. Although Traditionalist Churches (usually) do not follow the Pope or the Vatican, and they are often not part of the Roman Catholic Church at all, they DO teach tithing very strictly. Not to tithe, for Traditionalists, is a mortal sin. As I said, your theology seems very much inclined in this direction, anyway. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a Traditionalist environment than in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
No temple no tithe. We would be setting the wrong example, people would think that if they tithed, they have done their duty. There are a lot of churches out there doing very well, Joyce Meyers for example. I am not very comforted that people will give a tenth of everything while still being spiritually dead, are you?
 
codeyrolley said:
No temple no tithe. We would be setting the wrong example, people would think that if they tithed, they have done their duty. There are a lot of churches out there doing very well, Joyce Meyers for example. I am not very comforted that people will give a tenth of everything while still being spiritually dead, are you?
Click to expand...
The actions of people are not very comforting at times, I agree. 😦 Do not despair, though. Place your hope in the Lord. He is our comfort. He is our help.

It is ridiculously hard to remember to do that, though. 😊
 
Thank you Joseph for defending the truths of our Catholic faith as it pertains to Tithing.

I pray for our fellow Catholics and Christians who have not yet come to learn the truth about Tithing. They have become “bound” to the law so to speak which is completely opposite of watch Jesus came here to do. God, through Jesus Christ, took on the curse himself to set us free from the law. Do they not know that? Christ set us free, not to be bound to the the law which no human being could follow and fulfill perfectly except our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself!

Most Catholics do not understand the larger picture that false doctrines are promulgated by false teachings on Tithing. If they understood that Tithing is what is used to draw them away from the Truth of Christ and His Catholic Church, they would stop Tithing immediately and give out of love instead of obligation on a fixed amount and the threat of “being cursed”.

The reality is that there is a great deal of money and power at stake here. Billions who peddle the name of Christ to enrich and empower those who preach this false teaching on tithing, empowering them to further distort the teachings of the Church.

We must pray for those who are lost and do not know the truth about this topic. They have become captive. My wife and I used to be part of this Filipino Charismatic community and they emphasize tithing a great deal… not necessarily to the Church, but to the “community”… which I believe is even more harmful not only because you’re being taught something that is not taught by the Church but also because money is diverted from the Church to a “Christian” (and in many ways Protestant-like) community who has duplicated in many ways the mission of our Church. Thank God that the Lord blessed us with the truth less than a year later as I grew to question their “teachings” about tithing and other topics about the Catholic faith. Indeed, aside from Tithing, I saw many teachings that they offered which were inconsistent with the CCD classes that I was teaching. I Thank God that the Lord showed us the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Indeed, as you have pointed out, if you practice something that is opposite the truth and have knowledge of it and consent to it and it is a grave matter, you are committing a mortal sin. I have brought this to the attention of the Servant General of the Charismatic community as well as their spiritual director in the Philippines several months ago… Yet, nothing has changed on their teachings of tithing or stewardship. So there is a huge disconnect here. It’s too hard to acknowledge the truth for them because it’s been a huge teaching of theirs for 30 years now. There is certainly fear in acknowledging the truth because they fear that the consequence is “collapse” of their Charismatic “community”, which I believe has already happened anyway with the continued “split” and reductions in membership over the past several years. As with the Pharisees, I fear it’s all about money and power for them. In order to gain those, they have sacrificed the Truth and taken the Lord’s name repeatedly in vain.

Wall Street bankers are NOT the only ones to watch out for. Unfortunately, greed and power also exist in many Christian communities. Also, regardless of all the “good” that these Charismatics claim to do, the very basic teachings of our faith state that we cannot justify sin in order to do good works. The “means” (i.e. tithing) do not justify the ends.

I believe we all need to pray about this verse in the Holy Bible repeatedly and to understand what is meant for Judas and what it means to all of us as followers of Christ:

Matthew 26:14-16

14 Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

We must “follow the money”… Follow Wall Street, follow the politicians, and indeed follow those who teach us about “Christ”. And see that all this talk about tithing is opposite the truth and brings about death.

Matthew 27:3

3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

This Christmas, we pray that all come to know the truth about Tithing. It might sound innocent enough, but these false teachings on Tithing are in fact devious and extremely harmful for all believers in Jesus Christ.

If you have become beholden to the lies about tithing, particularly those taught by covenant charismatic communities, I pray that the Truth of Christ sets you free and that you realize that “community” is no comfort and place for you if the teachings about the Catholic faith are wrong.

A very Merry Christmas to everyone on this forum and those who read this forum!
 
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