Do we as Catholics worship Mary

[Marsha_Adams]

Answer this without thinking much (no cheating ):

How would an average Catholic distinguish veneration to Mary and worship to God? What’s the difference? Its very subtle isnt it?

What’s the difference between worshipping and praying the Litany of the Blessed Virgin?

I don’t see anything subtle about it. In the litany we beg Mary to pray for us. Worship does not involve any petition at all. Worship is what the angels do in God’s presence glorifying Him. Isaiah describes it in vision with the seraphim in the presence of God with two wings they flew and with two they covered their face and with two they covered their feet and cried out “Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts”. That is worship. Thomas upon seeing the Resurrected Christ fell to his knees and exclaimed, “My Lord and God!” That is worship. Acknowledging God as the source of our existence and salvation, that is worship. Marvellling over the mystery that God left heaven to be humiliated and tortured for oursake, and standing in awe of His love for us, THAT is worship.

Worship isn’t begging for favors and then thanking Him for them.

Protestants don’t do a lot of worshipping so they get confused and call asking Mary and the saints for favors worship. Many Catholics are in the same situation but they don’t get confused because they have the Teaching Authority of the Church to explain it.

I was a Protestant for 31 years before converting to Catholicism so I know whereof I speak.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I was raised Catholic, and I wasn’t sure we DIDN’T worship Mary! I knew it wasn’t part of the official church teaching, but in some areas and subcultures within Catholicism veneration of Mary can be pretty intense. Where I was raised, adoration of Mary was at least equal to, and for some greater than any attention showed to Christ. What I’m saying is that there is confusion even among Catholics.

Truly. When I was Catholic my ‘veneration’ for mary surpassed my worship for jesus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think this comes from Roman Catholics who claim that Mary has done so much for them when they pray to her. I was in a conversation with a Roman Catholic the other day and she said “I usually pray to St. Christopher he always seems to come through for me”

I’ve heard many say the same thing about Mary. I was watching ETWN the other night and they had a web of faith question regarding this very issue. The response was quite interesting in that the Priests were explaining the RCC’s position on this. But over the next few minutes of the conversation they talked about all these miracles that get attributed to Mary. Not one time did they give any glory to GOD. Then they had the audacity to say hey we’re not trying to squeeze out Jesus, we’re just recognizing Mary’s rightful place. This was a little disturbing.

How it is disturbing. If you actually look at the approved apparition. They always call for sinners to convert to God and stop sinning. Mary is only invoking God’s desire that mankind stop offending God. She wants us to keep our eye on the Master.

The other thing that seems to aggravate non-RCs is all the work that gets put into creating doctrine for venerating Mary. Like the current effort to title her co-mediatrix. Also when I see Vatican Officials on TV i.e. Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope walking past the huge statue of Mary in the Vatican they bow down to it.

Co-mediatrix is only officially taught by the Church. There are only 4 Dogmas of Mary that is part of our doctrine of the faith. The Church based this on Scripture and Tradition. Of course this itself is another topic.

It’s pretty easy to confuse this all with Mary worship. Let’s try focusing on the 66% of the world that doesn’t even believe.

PEACE

Perhaps, your mind is so narrow minded you failed to look at all issues concerning Mary. Catholic Christians do not worship Mary. Catholics do not give her adorations. Worship and adoration is to God alone. In the Mass, we join in unity of prayer with all the saints. We pray as one body. Most Protestants cannot grasp this because Protestants don’t have a clue about the concept of the Communion of Saints. If they can comprehend it, they would understand that our honor of Mary is not worship.

Our love for Mary based on our love for Jesus Christ. She is after all, our spiritual mother. Jesus is our brother through our baptism. Fr. Corapi said this, “if she is good enough for Jesus. She’s good enough for you.”

 

[st_lucy]

1. I never said “everybody”, but I often said “many”. Would I be wrong with saying that? Im a realist I guess. Im not making wild accusations here, but talking about myself and when I have prayed with other.

Yes you did say many with the accusation that all those who you have prayed with. I am sorry that you didn’t associate with many Catholics because like I have said I have this to not be true. But than again I do not sit around watching or assuming what others might be doing in their own heart.
2. since you are so defensive about it, maybe you have had the same troubles.

What I said above.

1. the Scriptural rosary is a relatively new way of praying the Rosary. Not everyone prays it or has prayed it.

I am not that old and I remember my mom praying this when I was a child as well as my grandmother.

1. if you are focusing 100% on the Mysteries, then that means you are saying the prayers without thinking about them. How ironic that you hint that I have been paying lip service while praying.

I am not understanding you here. First you say that we Catholics don’t focus on the mysteries and when I say I find this to not be true you say that I am not thinking of the prayers.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Truly. When I was Catholic my ‘veneration’ for mary surpassed my worship for jesus.

Adoration is not permitted in the Catholic Church. I think Catholics confuse this a lot with veneration. As a Catholic, my veneration of Mary is always with Jesus. The prayer “Hail Mary” has God in mind. It does say, “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

For one, we know Mary is in heaven now. We also know Mary to be Blessed because Mary said, “all generation will call me blessed.” We also say, blessed is the fruit of your womb. The fruit is Jesus."

God is never negated in the Marian prayer.

 

[cecilia97]

Answer this without thinking much (no cheating ):

How would an average Catholic distinguish veneration to Mary and worship to God? What’s the difference? Its very subtle isnt it?

What’s the difference between worshipping and praying the Litany of the Blessed Virgin?

Prayer is not worship. The Mass is worship. Worship as Jesus instituted it at the Last Supper. That’s the difference.

 

[MH84]

Prayer is not worship. The Mass is worship. Worship as Jesus instituted it at the Last Supper. That’s the difference.

Prayer can be used to worship. How else does one worship God?

The Mass includes petitions throughout it. I think the Mass is a combination of worship and prayers of petition.

 

[Deacon110]

Deacon, maybe you were focusing on so much if they ever mentioned about Jesus and you missed the whole point. Have you ever heard someone admiring a picture without even mentioning the name of the artist. I am sure you have. But admiring the picture does not taking away the admiring of the artist even when we do not mention his name.

That’s not the point though. The problem is they didn’t clarify that it’s GOD who performs the miracles. The implication is that the miracles were attibuted to Mary. Mary has no power to perform miracles, nor does anyone without GOD. As far as admiring a painting that’s not even an apples to apples comparison. When admiring a painting I don’t give credit to someone who didn’t do the work. I can admire the beauty of a painting but then the credit goes directly to the creator of the painting. Is Mary a creator of miracles?? I don’t think so. Last I checked it was GOD who created everything.

I could understand your point of view and how you want the program to be. Perhaps, if the speaker of this program mentioned more about God without assuming that the audiences would understand “honoring Mary is to honor God”, then you would convert to Catholism.

I don’t believe honoring Mary is honoring GOD. I don’t honor Mary. I love and respect her for her committment to doing GOD’s will. GOD does not ask us to honor Mary anywhere at all. HE wants us to honor only HIM and love and respect one another. First commandment GOD tells us he’s a jealous GOD.

As far as converting to Roman Catholicism, I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic. So there’s nothing for me to convert to. It’s a matter of would I revert back to or return to the RCC and the answer is no not unless GOD led me there. GOD has led me another way which I’m sure is hard to believe for you.

PEACE

 

[AgnosTheist]

Adoration is not permitted in the Catholic Church.

Catholic Terms are confusing themselves. The practical definition of “Adore” is “to regard with loving admiration and devotion”. Thats what many religious catholics give to mary.

However there is also the theological definition of “Adore” which is “to worship or honor as a deity or as divine”. Though no catholic can be heard saying that Mary is divine, they appear to venerate her as if she is. Like as if she is omnipresent enough to hear everyone’s prayer. Or as if she has control over God. When I was Catholic I sure believed that prayers to mary is just as good as prayers to god. To the other saints, i did not have that much faith, except if you offer the kinds of prayers where patron saints specialize in.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Catholic Terms are confusing themselves. The practical definition of “Adore” is “to regard with loving admiration and devotion”. Thats what many religious catholics give to mary.

However there is also the theological definition of “Adore” which is “to worship or honor as a deity or as divine”. Though no catholic can be heard saying that Mary is divine, they appear to venerate her as if she is. Like as if she is omnipresent enough to hear everyone’s prayer. Or as if she has control over God.

I used the definition of adoration in accordance with the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. **“You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” **says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

 

[Deacon110]

How it is disturbing. If you actually look at the approved apparition. They always call for sinners to convert to God and stop sinning. Mary is only invoking God’s desire that mankind stop offending God. She wants us to keep our eye on the Master.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The disturbing part was the comment about Jesus.

Co-mediatrix is only officially taught by the Church. There are only 4 Dogmas of Mary that is part of our doctrine of the faith. The Church based this on Scripture and Tradition. Of course this itself is another topic.

What does being taught by the church have to do with anything? The bottom line is there’s an effort to make this doctrine. And the dogmas are created based on scriptural interpretation. Not what scripture says.

Perhaps, your mind is so narrow minded you failed to look at all issues concerning Mary.

My mind is so narrow-minded? Please refrain from making narrow-minded comments.

Catholic Christians do not worship Mary. Catholics do not give her adorations. Worship and adoration is to God alone. In the Mass, we join in unity of prayer with all the saints. We pray as one body. Most Protestants cannot grasp this because Protestants don’t have a clue about the concept of the Communion of Saints. If they can comprehend it, they would understand that our honor of Mary is not worship.

Our love for Mary based on our love for Jesus Christ. She is after all, our spiritual mother. Jesus is our brother through our baptism. Fr. Corapi said this, “if she is good enough for Jesus. She’s good enough for you.”

Again I grew up Roman Catholic so I’m familiar with all concepts described. I don’t agree with some of them.

 

[ibkc]

That’s not the point though. The problem is they didn’t clarify that it’s GOD who performs the miracles. The implication is that the miracles were attibuted to Mary.
…
As far as converting to Roman Catholicism, I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic. So there’s nothing for me to convert to. It’s a matter of would I revert back to or return to the RCC and the answer is no not unless GOD led me there. GOD has led me another way which I’m sure is hard to believe for you.

Deacon110, you tell us at every chance you get that you were Catholic, but I have to say that if you’re telling the truth, you were a very poorly catechized Catholic who had not the slightest understanding of his own faith. You didn’t leave Catholicism, you left what someone told you was Catholicism. I’m sure the Lord is leading you, but He was probably just hoping to get you somewhere where you’d pay attention since you certainly weren’t paying attention in the true church founded by Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[water]

I don’t believe honoring Mary is honoring GOD. I don’t honor Mary. I love and respect her for her committment to doing GOD’s will. GOD does not ask us to honor Mary anywhere at all. HE wants us to honor only HIM and love and respect one another. First commandment GOD tells us he’s a jealous GOD.

In this same thread, some misunderstand “adore” word. What do you define “honor”?

From what you said, you love her…don’t you think this is how to honor God. Honoring God is all about love – don’t you think.

As far as converting to Roman Catholicism, I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic. So there’s nothing for me to convert to. It’s a matter of would I revert back to or return to the RCC and the answer is no not unless GOD led me there. GOD has led me another way which I’m sure is hard to believe for you.
PEACE

Sorry, I didn’t know you were raised Catholic. Does it ever occur to you that in life, we all have made many bad decisions; nevertheless, God takes advantage of our bad decision and turn to something great?

It is God’s will, you will be back and I am sure He is…except He is waiting for your will. If one is searching for truth in humility, God can lead him to the truth.

 

[jabelltulsa]

I quite simply say that in general Catholics know more about Mary than they do about the Blessed Trinity, especially the Holy Spirit and God the Father. I dare say the average Catholic hardly knows the basic understanding of the Trinity.

If people pray its normally the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Besides through the Mass, the Blessed Trinity is not worshipped by Catholics as They should be. However, Ive even heard that many people used to pray the Rosary during the Mass!

I have never met a Catholic that did not understand the Most Holy Trinity (if only, at least, with a human, finite mind). Also, I have never met a Catholic that did not understand the difference between Christ and Mary, and the honor due to Mary, and the Worship due to Christ. I have been a Catholic all my life. I have met many Catholics. I think your statement above is a bit inflammatory. I say this with Charity, friend.

Catholics have a rich prayer life. We understand worship, and we understand the differences in all levels of honor and prayer. We recognize Christ fully Present in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. The same can not be said of most other churches. We understand the role of the Holy Spirit that guides the Church and protects it from error. We are obedient to God the Father as He asked. We venerate and give honor to Mary and all the Saints who are God’s gift of example to us. We keep their example alive, and follow it (Christ being our Primary and Supreme Example).

However, isnt it strange when many people pray the Rosary, they don’t reflect on the Mysteries, they just mention the titles of each Mystery and then continue. There is no reading of the Scripture of the Mystery or a pause. I know Ive many, many times prayed like that. The Rosary to most people, I suggest, is more about the 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Mary’s and 1 Glory Be.

You don’t understand the rosary. Have you been to a public rosary before Mass? Scripture IS read before each decade. Each Mystery is Christ centered. All the prayers are Scriptural. The few additions come from our rich Church history, and are grounded in Scripture. When I pray the rosary at home (not in the car), I have a booklet that has Scriptural passages that encompass the particular Mystery.

There is a man that leads the rosary before each 8:30am Sunday Mass. He is a strong, tall man, and he is over 50 years old and has gray hair. You wouldn’t think it to look at him, but he can rarely get through reciting each Mystery without breaking down. He weeps, as we all do. The Mysteries are the core of the rosary. If it is not, you aren’t doing it right.

How would an average Catholic distinguish veneration to Mary and worship to God? What’s the difference? Its very subtle isnt it?

Infinite. This can only be understood from behind my eyes and behind my heart, though (or behind that of any properly taught Catholic). I could see why someone would be confused. We do show Mary a lot of honor, however, this is only because we are asked to by God, and, well, because we love her. The love we have for her, is infinitely smaller than that we have for God

Before I honor (Dulia) any human being, I honor (Hyperdulia) Mary. Before I honor Mary, I worship (Latria) the God, my God, that made her - because God is everything; humans are just an echo of Him.

Before you accuse Catholics of not having understanding of things, know that the Church has been studying, praying to, and offering Sacrifice to God for 2000 years. She has educated millions upon millions in the life of Christ. She has fostered and cared for many many wonderful, charitable Saints. The Church knows how to worship God, because the Holy Spirit has been guiding Her since Christ walked the Earth.

I love you and miss you, friend … please come home.

 

[cecilia97]

Prayer can be used to worship. How else does one worship God?

The Mass includes petitions throughout it. I think the Mass is a combination of worship and prayers of petition.

But not ALL prayers equate to worship.

Types of prayer:

1. thanksgiving
2. petition
3. contrition
4. adoration

All four take place during the Mass. Prayers of adoration are reserved for God only.

You ask “how else does one worship God”? There is so much more going on at Mass than prayer. Not least among them the fact that, during the Eucharist, we actually “do this is memory of” Christ as He asked us to.

As another poster said earlier, the Catholic Church realizes that praying for things and getting them is not worship. Saying “thank you” is not worship. Saying “I’m sorry” is not worship.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Catholic Terms are confusing themselves. The practical definition of “Adore” is “to regard with loving admiration and devotion”. Thats what many religious catholics give to mary.

It’s more admiration and devotions. Nothing is wrong with devotions. In fact, husbands and wives show much admiration and devotions with one another, yet no one accuses them of idolatry.

However there is also the theological definition of “Adore” which is “to worship or honor as a deity or as divine”. Though no catholic can be heard saying that Mary is divine, they appear to venerate her as if she is.

That is your problem to make you think that they appear to venerate her as she was divine. The Catholic Church has never put Mary in a position of that of deity. It is through’s man’s ignorance of the Catholic Church that can mislead people. Mankind is good at twisting words.

It becames the problem of individuals themselves who distort this type of thinking.

Like as if she is omnipresent enough to hear everyone’s prayer. Or as if she has control over God. When I was Catholic I sure believed that prayers to mary is just as good as prayers to god. To the other saints, i did not have that much faith, except if you offer the kinds of prayers where patron saints specialize in.

Well, your post does indicate your own thoughts and feelings on this. You base your logic on this, you will tend to distort the truth. You assumed she is omnipresent. The Catholic Church never teaches that.

Rather, God does permit certain saints to see through his own power. How? Well, one example is how God permitted Daniel to interpret dreams. Daniel himself could not interpret dreams. It was through God that he was able to do so. He did the same to Joseph when the Egyptian Paroah was have problems with his dreams.

Your concept that Mary has some control over God is also a distortion of the truth. The concept of prayer between Protestants and Catholic is different.

When Catholics pray, they do private prayer, communal prayer (with groups), and intecessionary prayers. Intercessionary prayers often involve the entire Communion of Saints. The communion of saints consist of Church Militant (Christians on earth), Church Victorious (Saints in heaven) and Church Suffering (in purgatory). Each group pray for one another. They pray to God the Father in one body. Consider it as a large Christian prayer group.

 

[AgnosTheist]

That is your problem to make you think that they appear to venerate her as she was divine. The Catholic Church has never put Mary in a position of that of deity. It is through’s man’s ignorance of the Catholic Church that can mislead people. Mankind is good at twisting words.

Do you think its only outsiders who see catholics as appearing to diefy mary? Catholics themselves are confused in this regard. In my observation its one of the reasons why a catholic would convert to another monotheistic religion. When they realize they have actually been doing something that they shouldnt. Like crossing the boundary and worshipping mary instead of just venerating her.

Theory is one thing, reality is another. It happens.

 

[Deacon110]

Deacon110, you tell us at every chance you get that you were Catholic, but I have to say that if you’re telling the truth, you were a very poorly catechized Catholic who had not the slightest understanding of his own faith. You didn’t leave Catholicism, you left what someone told you was Catholicism. I’m sure the Lord is leading you, but He was probably just hoping to get you somewhere where you’d pay attention since you certainly weren’t paying attention in the true church founded by Jesus and the Apostles.

I keep saying it because I’m getting titled as a Protestant. And I certainly wasn’t poorly catechized nor did I leave based on what someone told me. I fully understand RCC doctrine and find myself clarifying it for others who do not understand it. As far as GOD leading me. He led somewhere so I could get spiritually fed.

 

[ibkc]

I keep saying it because I’m getting titled as a Protestant. And I certainly wasn’t poorly catechized nor did I leave based on what someone told me. I fully understand RCC doctrine and find myself clarifying it for others who do not understand it. As far as GOD leading me. He led somewhere so I could get spiritually fed.

I don’t disagree with your last statement. But as for your other claims: are you not now Protestant? What are you doing on a Catholic forum but protesting Catholic doctrine and trying to convince us all that the fundamentalist perspective is the correct one? Are you now claiming you’re still Catholic?

Also - are you aware that nearly every argument I’ve seen you make on this forum has been addressed for years in the CA apologists’ tracts available right here on this website? This is why I question the idea that you were ever a fully catechized, practicing Catholic. If you had been, I don’t see how you could present the fundamentalist, evangelical Protestant notion of Catholicism as fact, like you are. I know and know of plenty of former Catholics, and they don’t do this. I think you’re holding up your experience with Catholicism-lite as an appeal to authority and nothing more.

 

[rinnie]

The only thing i know i went to a Catholic school and a Catholic Church all of my life never and i mean never were we taught to worship anyone but Jesus Christ himself. Maybe its because people didnt know the difference between devotion and worship, We were taught Mary was our role model. She was totally devoted to God. And we were taught that were to be like her. Never question God just like she did. If some people claim and i dont care if they are Catholic or not or were Catholic or not that the church teaches to worship Mary they are lying. Think about it how could the church teach the ten commandmants and then teach you to break them. They wouldnt.