Do we as Catholics worship Mary

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In this same thread, some misunderstand “adore” word. What do you define “honor”?

From what you said, you love her…don’t you think this is how to honor God. Honoring God is all about love – don’t you think.
That’s probably the best way I’ve seen it put. I do think I’m honoring GOD when I love Mary. I honor her with respect to the word “honor” meaning respect (no pun intended). The RCC places her higher than anyone though so this type of honor can be confusing.
Sorry, I didn’t know you were raised Catholic. Does it ever occur to you that in life, we all have made many bad decisions; nevertheless, God takes advantage of our bad decision and turn to something great?
You don’t have to apologize:) GOD definitely takes bad decisions and works good into them. But I didn’t purposely leave the RCC. I didn’t wake up one day and say hey I’m going to stop being Roman Catholic. I always had questions and doubts on RCC doctrine. I’ve never met a Roman Catholic who didn’t. I simply fell away from my faith all together about 20 years ago. I always believed which fortunately was easy for me. But I wasn’t living my faith. I prayed to GOD for guidance and to lead my family somewhere that would bring us close to HIM. I was fully open to returning to the RCC. But that’s not what happened. For the sake of preserving space I won’t go into details but I can promise you, just as you said GOD works when we make mistakes, there’s no doubt he was at work here. Too many things happened to attribute it to anything else but GOD.
It is God’s will, you will be back and I am sure He is…except He is waiting for your will. If one is searching for truth in humility, God can lead him to the truth.
That’s funny you say that because I pray every night for GOD to lead me where he wants me to be. I never take the position that the RCC is off limits. So if GOD leads me back to the RCC, fine.

PEACE
 
Do you think its only outsiders who see catholics as appearing to diefy mary? Catholics themselves are confused in this regard. In my observation its one of the reasons why a catholic would convert to another monotheistic religion. When they realize they have actually been doing something that they shouldnt. Like crossing the boundary and worshipping mary instead of just venerating her.

Theory is one thing, reality is another. It happens.
If catholics themselves are confused on this they dont know their religion. And i have never in my life heard a Catholic say they left the church because they were made to worship Mary. NEVER
 
If catholics themselves are confused on this they dont know their religion.
too many catholics who dont understand the complexities of catholicism.
And i have never in my life heard a Catholic say they left the church because they were made to worship Mary. NEVER
you would if you were raised in the philippines. or try talking to an ex-catholic.
 
I don’t disagree with your last statement. But as for your other claims: are you not now Protestant? What are you doing on a Catholic forum but protesting Catholic doctrine and trying to convince us all that the fundamentalist perspective is the correct one? Are you now claiming you’re still Catholic?
I consider myself a Christian. I don’t align with any specific Protestant denomination. I attend non-denominational services. As far as protesting Catholic doctrine, I don’t protest all RCC doctrine.
Also - are you aware that nearly every argument I’ve seen you make on this forum has been addressed for years in the CA apologists’ tracts available right here on this website?
Yes I’m aware so what’s the point? That doesn’t stop Roman Catholics from creating threads that instigate debate over these very doctrines. I respond to what is created. I would ask what are you doing in the Non-Roman Catholic section?? Creating debate plain and simple. If you were completely sound with the Apologists defense of the doctrine then why even be here then?? Apologists are defending their interpretations but that doesn’t mean they are right:shrug:
This is why I question the idea that you were ever a fully catechized, practicing Catholic. If you had been, I don’t see how you could present the fundamentalist, evangelical Protestant notion of Catholicism as fact, like you are.
I respond to specific things that I don’t agree with. I don’t see how that places a universal fundamentalist notion to Roman Catholicism. Maybe you should step outside of the RCC box sometime and do some sound research on church history. Take a look from someone else’s point of view. If you have done that then great. But don’t criticize someone else because they don’t agree with you.
I know and know of plenty of former Catholics, and they don’t do this. I think you’re holding up your experience with Catholicism-lite as an appeal to authority and nothing more.
Appeal to authority? Your assuming that the RCC is the authority. Saying you are the authority and actually being the authority are 2 different things.
 
too many catholics who dont understand the complexities of catholicism.

you would if you were raised in the philippines. or try talking to an ex-catholic.
I wish i could meet an ex-catholic that would tell me that. And i would go with them to the RCC and let them stand in front of the Blessed Mother and Jesus Christ and then say it. And then go to the Priest in that church and have him agree with them. It will never happen. Its one thing to disagree with the RCC and thats a choice people can make. But to flat out lie i just cant see how anyone could do that. And to lie about the Mother Of Christ. I will say one thing i have my sins we all do but i would not want to go to my grave with that one. No way. And i know alot of Catholics who dont know thier faith the way they should. Lets face it none of us do. But a second grader know that the RCC doesnt make you worship the Blessed Mother. You got me on this one. I still in shock that an ex-catholic could say that. I still dont believe it. They couldnt have ever practiced the faith. they would have to have been a fallen Catholic from the get go.
 
I love you and miss you, friend … please come home.
Take it easy… you love me and miss me?

Anyway, thanks for being honest, but kind at the same time.

I have been often stayed back during weekday Masses. And we just mentioned the title of the Mysteries and continued. Many, NOT ALL, do this. What goes on in their minds and hearts is a different story, though.

A couple of people here have gone all self-righteous and telling me that they are not looking at others, or concerned about what others are doing etc., but Im human, Im flawed, is it reallt that bad that I have observed others. Heaps of people do. It is not always easy to concentrate when it comes to prayer. Should I have tried better during those times, yes. But sometimes it does help you learn when you observe others.

I agree that meditating on the Mysteries are central to praying the Rosary, often I have not done so or did not try hard enough.
 
I don’t disagree with your last statement. But as for your other claims: are you not now Protestant? What are you doing on a Catholic forum but protesting Catholic doctrine and trying to convince us all that the fundamentalist perspective is the correct one? Are you now claiming you’re still Catholic?

Also - are you aware that nearly every argument I’ve seen you make on this forum has been addressed for years in the CA apologists’ tracts available right here on this website? This is why I question the idea that you were ever a fully catechized, practicing Catholic. If you had been, I don’t see how you could present the fundamentalist, evangelical Protestant notion of Catholicism as fact, like you are. I know and know of plenty of former Catholics, and they don’t do this. I think you’re holding up your experience with Catholicism-lite as an appeal to authority and nothing more.
I only want to say that I can’t see anything wrong with Deacon asking questions. After all that’s what this discussion board is for, isnt it?
 
What does the Commandment state: Honor your Father and Mother. Jesus fulfilled this Commandment and because he lives, he continues to Honor his Mother and Father. Not only in heaven, but on earth also, through his body, the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, For we are the body of Christ incarnate.

Peace be with you, Praise be the Lord Jesus Christ now and forever, and Hail the Queen Mary his Mother, and her offspring those who give Witness and testimony to her Son Jesus, and those who keep GODS COMMANDMENTS.
Read Revelations 12:17
 
Well, I grew up in pre-Vat II times–lo-ong ago.

I almost converted to RCC but didn’t.

To Catholics on the ground (great expression) then, there was a huge emphasis on MARY. The doctrines. The prayers. The statues. You were supposed to pray to her for EVERYTHING.

Maybe not now. I do know that Vat II really tried to *tone down *the devotion to Mary.

Popes after Pius XII haven’t emphasized her so much, not that she needed emphasizing, and I don’t think that Co-Mediatrix has even been proclaimed, like the Immac Conception has been proclaimed.
 
What does the Commandment state: Honor your Father and Mother. Jesus fulfilled this Commandment and because he lives, he continues to Honor his Mother and Father. Not only in heaven, but on earth also, through his body, the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, For we are the body of Christ incarnate.

Peace be with you, Praise be the Lord Jesus Christ now and forever, and Hail the Queen Mary his Mother, and her offspring those who give Witness and testimony to her Son Jesus, and those who keep GODS COMMANDMENTS.
Read Revelations 12:17
Stop misinterpreting Revelations 12:17. The offspring are the offspring of the church not Mary.
 
Stop misinterpreting Revelations 12:17. The offspring are the offspring of the church not Mary.
Are we made brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ through our baptism? Doesn’t that make Mary our spiritual mother? So technically speaking, we are the children of Mary. Jesus did in fact gave an un-named disciple his mother. The reason why John didn’t write the name of the apostle is because it is meant for all disciples to take Mary into his own house. In the Greek Lexicon of John, the translation, stays, “From that hour, the disciple took Mary into his own.” Or current translation, from that hour, the disciple took Mary into his own home."
 
Well, I grew up in pre-Vat II times–lo-ong ago.

I almost converted to RCC but didn’t.

To Catholics on the ground (great expression) then, there was a huge emphasis on MARY. The doctrines. The prayers. The statues. You were supposed to pray to her for EVERYTHING.

Maybe not now. I do know that Vat II really tried to *tone down *the devotion to Mary.

Popes after Pius XII haven’t emphasized her so much, not that she needed emphasizing, and I don’t think that Co-Mediatrix has even been proclaimed, like the Immac Conception has been proclaimed.
Im sorry i have to disagree with you. The RCC has not changed in 2000 years. It never toned down the devotion to Mary nor will i ever see that they will. She was always and will be Blessed. And read books on the Popes today, there is still a huge emphasis on her and always will be. But we still dont worship her. never did, never will, nothings changed.
 
Well, I grew up in pre-Vat II times–lo-ong ago.

I almost converted to RCC but didn’t.

To Catholics on the ground (great expression) then, there was a huge emphasis on MARY. The doctrines. The prayers. The statues. You were supposed to pray to her for EVERYTHING.
Not really. The source and summit of the Church is Eucharist not Mary. The Church does call the faithful to ask for her assistance but this is never done without her Son.
Maybe not now. I do know that Vat II really tried to *tone down *the devotion to Mary.
Popes after Pius XII haven’t emphasized her so much, not that she needed emphasizing, and I don’t think that Co-Mediatrix has even been proclaimed, like the Immac Conception has been proclaimed.
Vatican II discuss primary the role of the CC in the modern age.
 
That’s not the point though. The problem is they didn’t clarify that it’s GOD who performs the miracles. The implication is that the miracles were attibuted to Mary. Mary has no power to perform miracles, nor does anyone without GOD.
You’re right, it is God who performed the miracle. And no, the implication is not that Mary performed the miracle. You are the one implying that.
As far as admiring a painting that’s not even an apples to apples comparison. When admiring a painting I don’t give credit to someone who didn’t do the work. I can admire the beauty of a painting but then the credit goes directly to the creator of the painting. Is Mary a creator of miracles?? I don’t think so. Last I checked it was GOD who created everything.

I don’t believe honoring Mary is honoring GOD.
1 Samuel 24:9 “when Saul looked back, David bowed to the ground in homage” David was not worshiping Saul, he was giving Saul the honor and respect he deserved and still honoring God at the same time.

1 Kings 2:19 “Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage.” That is all we do with Mary, we ask her to pray for us and we honor her.
I don’t honor Mary. I love and respect her for her committment to doing GOD’s will. GOD does not ask us to honor Mary anywhere at all. HE wants us to honor only HIM and love and respect one another. First commandment GOD tells us he’s a jealous GOD.

As far as converting to Roman Catholicism, I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic. So there’s nothing for me to convert to. It’s a matter of would I revert back to or return to the RCC and the answer is no not unless GOD led me there. GOD has led me another way which I’m sure is hard to believe for you.
1 Cor. 1:10 “I urge you brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you.” God is calling us to unity not sectarianism, He hasn’t lead you away from the RCC, that would contradict scripture. In fact Colossians 2:8 warns us against it, “see to it that no captivates you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition”

Peace in Christ
 
I consider myself a Christian. I don’t align with any specific Protestant denomination. I attend non-denominational services. As far as protesting Catholic doctrine, I don’t protest all RCC doctrine.
Your beliefs, however, are soundly Protestant in origin. Since Christianity encompasses an extremely broad spectrum of beliefs, it is disingenuous to claim that your small slice of Christianity is the one to be called “Christian” with no further elaboration.
Yes I’m aware so what’s the point? That doesn’t stop Roman Catholics
There are plenty of non-Latin-Rite Catholics on this site, some of whom start threads in this section. This is yet another reason that I question that you were ever Catholic at all, because few actual Catholics will routinely insert the big scary word “ROMAN” every single time the religion is referred to. You might as well be saying “CURSED PAPIST” the way you toss it around.
I would ask what are you doing in the Non-Roman Catholic section??
Comparative religion and comparative mythology are two of my long-standing interests, that’s why.
Creating debate plain and simple.
Actually no. Like you I am here responding to debates, not creating them. I think I have only ever started one debate thread here.
If you were completely sound with the Apologists defense of the doctrine then why even be here then??
Because I enjoy debating as a way to strengthen my new religion and to understand what others think of it. Why are you here?
Apologists are defending their interpretations but that doesn’t mean they are right:shrug:
They are certainly right about matters of Catholic doctrine and practice. That is the point here. Your arguments are statements of what you think Catholics believe when in fact, Catholics believe no such thing. You build up endless strawmen and then dramatically tear them down.
I respond to specific things that I don’t agree with. I don’t see how that places a universal fundamentalist notion to Roman Catholicism.
Because your statements are all, to a word, reflections of standard fundamentalist perceptions of Catholicism.
Maybe you should step outside of the RCC box sometime and do some sound research on church history. Take a look from someone else’s point of view. If you have done that then great. But don’t criticize someone else because they don’t agree with you.
I have been down this road with you before, yet you continue to trot out the same old assumptions. Let me explain again: someone who is arguing from the Catholic (not “ROMAN CATHOLIC”) point of view is not necessarily doing so because they don’t know anything else. I am a brand new convert. I fell away from Christianity completely and totally for over 20 years. I have practiced paganism, Buddhism and have been an agnostic, hedonist party animal. I have read and studied history and I have viewed the whole of Christianity as an outsider. I come to Catholicism because of these experiences: not because of a lack of diversity in my education or lack of exposure to other points of view. So please, if you get nothing else straight, get this one point: Catholicism != ignorance.
Appeal to authority? Your assuming that the RCC is the authority. Saying you are the authority and actually being the authority are 2 different things.
You do not understand what “appeal to authority” means, I see. *An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argumentlogic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, * in *argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: **he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. *
Basically, you keep telling us that you are a former Catholic in the belief that this will give your statement extra credibility. But your tactic is failing because there is no evidence that you ever understood Catholic doctrine to begin with, whether you were actually Catholic or not.
 
Stop misinterpreting Revelations 12:17. The offspring are the offspring of the church not Mary.
I am glad you agree, with the simplicity of the scripture. Maybe you should read it again very slowly. Or pray first and ask the holy spirit to guide you in Truth.

I wont ask for you to prove it solely states that the woman is the Church, so you dont have to give your opinion of your own interpretation of scriptures. Any scripture that proves your wrong, you state it doesnt say that.

Who else can give offspring other than a Woman. If you state this Passage is only the Church, beware of the other scriptures that contradict your interpretation.

For clarification I will post it for all to see for themselves and not take my word or your word for it.

Revelations12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with Child…13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the Woman WHO HAD GIVEN BIRTH TO THE MALE CHILD.14 But the Woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where far from the serpent she was taken care of … 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman ( why because God protected (Mary full of Grace)her from sin, the dragon could not touch Mary) And went off to wage war against THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING THOSE WHO KEEP GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND BEAR WITNESS TO JESUS.

Deacon would agree the rest of her offspring and those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus, is the CHURCH. Or do you disagree. God does not speak deception., only Truth.

Peace be with you Deacon
 
Take it easy… you love me and miss me?
Sorry if this seems over the top, but I have a choice … Be angry at those who don’t believe as I do (pride), or love them.and wish for them to see the truth (charity) :o

🙂
 
You’re right, it is God who performed the miracle. And no, the implication is not that Mary performed the miracle. You are the one implying that.
No EWTN did.
1 Samuel 24:9 “when Saul looked back, David bowed to the ground in homage” David was not worshiping Saul, he was giving Saul the honor and respect he deserved and still honoring God at the same time.
Saul was a king which GOD did not want. He gave the Jews a king because they asked for one.
1 Kings 2:19 “Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage.” That is all we do with Mary, we ask her to pray for us and we honor her.
I know what the Roman Catholics do. Again I’m saying how it can look to the outside person that doesn’t know.
1 Cor. 1:10 “I urge you brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you.” God is calling us to unity not sectarianism, He hasn’t lead you away from the RCC, that would contradict scripture. In fact Colossians 2:8 warns us against it, “see to it that no captivates you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition”
Peace in Christ
You’re saying this because you see someone who doesn’t belong to the RCC as being divided. I don’t consider myself divided from you. We are united in Christ as brothers and sisters. But since you are quoting scripture let me quote you this:

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

So according to Paul it doesn’t matter who plants and who waters (RCC/Non-RCC). GOD is ultimately responsible for the spiritual growth. The planter and waterer are one meaning RCC/non-RCC are one.

I never said GOD led me away from the RCC. I said HE didn’t lead us back to the RCC. He led us to where we are now. Big difference. If GOD saw the RCC as being the only option then I’m quite sure that’s where we would have ended up.

PEACE
 
That is a good effort.

Jesus is God, correct? Yes, He is.

Jesus established one Church, A church, not one among many.

Jesus is the Head of the Church, and the Body is also His.

Jesus is the Truth.

His Church is the pillar and foundation of that one Truth.

Jesus cannot be seperated from His Body(the Church).

Non Catholic’s are not one with the Church(Christ’s Body).
Some are visibly seperate and doctrinally seperate, yet may still be saved.
Those are only implicitly within the Church, and imperfectly connected. There is no salvation outside of Christ’s Body, the Catholic Church, based in Rome. They are not one. To be one is to be perfectly united and therefore explicitly united.

If you make it to heaven, which is not for me to judge, then you have only gone through the Catholic Church(Christ’s Body) to do so. There is no other way to Heaven than through Christ and His Body(the Catholic Church).

peace, Justin
 
I am glad you agree, with the simplicity of the scripture. Maybe you should read it again very slowly. Or pray first and ask the holy spirit to guide you in Truth.

I wont ask for you to prove it solely states that the woman is the Church, so you dont have to give your opinion of your own interpretation of scriptures. Any scripture that proves your wrong, you state it doesnt say that.

Who else can give offspring other than a Woman. If you state this Passage is only the Church, beware of the other scriptures that contradict your interpretation.

For clarification I will post it for all to see for themselves and not take my word or your word for it.

Revelations12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with Child…13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the Woman WHO HAD GIVEN BIRTH TO THE MALE CHILD.14 But the Woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where far from the serpent she was taken care of … 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman ( why because God protected (Mary full of Grace)her from sin, the dragon could not touch Mary) And went off to wage war against THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING THOSE WHO KEEP GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND BEAR WITNESS TO JESUS.

Deacon would agree the rest of her offspring and those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus, is the CHURCH. Or do you disagree. God does not speak deception., only Truth.

Peace be with you Deacon
Ok Gabriel. The woman is the church plain and simple. The woman clothed with the sun and moon beneath her feet with a crown of 12 stars. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Jacob. Jesus came from the tribe of Judah. The church came from Jesus. The church is considered the bride of Jesus. The bride is a woman. Therefore the woman is the church. We are the offspring of the church. Satan is the dragon. Satan is always after the church and its offspring. Some interpretations think the 12 stars are the apostles. That would make sense too.

17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood [2] on the sand of the sea.

Who keeps the commandments of GOD and holds the testimony of Jesus? The Christian church.

Remember the gates of hell not prevailing:

14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

I think verse 14 sums that up nicely.

PEACE
 
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