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tiemry
Guest
Ok, but could you tell me why this song is fine but “Amazing Grace” (which is simply about a man finding God after living a sinful life) is wrong in your Church.
I know it’s the wording
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I know it’s the wording
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cecilia97
Guest
Jesus ascended to Heaven under His own power. Mary was assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
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rinnie
Guest
Oh yes i totally agree im sorry if you thought i was saying it was by her own power. I was just answering that yes shes in heaven with God.Jesus ascended to Heaven under His own power. Mary was assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
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cecilia97
Guest
Haven’t you seen that said many times on CA? I have. But one is walking a fine line by saying that. The “might” is essential. Unless someone tells us they’ve done it, like you have, we cannot assume that they are adoring Mary. Else, we’d be committed another sin by judging our brother and spreading lies about him.
If you believe you worshipped Mary, I believe you. And I’m sorry that priests, teachers, and parents may have let you down by teaching you error. But it’s still not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Was it your intention to worship Mary? Did you say to yourself and to Mary “I want to worship Mary”?
I do not believe that one can worship by accident. I believe it is a matter of intention. Many people who don’t have a clue as to how to worship, offer what they consider to be worship and God accepts it as worship. People who may be doing what is considered worship to Mary or to the Saints or to their spouse but without intending to worship are not worshipping.
Did anyone say to you “You should worship Mary?” If they did, they were lying. If they did not, you were misinterpreting.
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FCEGM
Guest
When I was a child (1940’s and 19550’s) there was certainly much visible veneration of Mary in the Catholic parish I attended on Long Island, NY, but I never equated that with worshipping her. I always knew the difference between God and Mary. I knew that the Mass was our worship of God, and that any devotions to Mary I saw or participated in sprang from a love for her as our mother, not as our God. That we worshipped the Most Holy Trinity and no other was very clear in my mind from the first day of catechism class.
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rinnie
Guest
See im with you on this one. I was led to believe she and others were made to worship Mary. Thats why im saying its a lie. And you are right, to say i never understood it is one thing. but to say the church made me do it is another. so you and i understood her to say the church made her and others do it thats why they left the church. They felt they were sinning. Yeah again we are on the same page and we know that it has to be a lie
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justasking4
Guest
Verses 2 and 3 of this hymn is making some very powerful theological claims about her. Claims that are spoken of God only and yet applied to her. These verses express is a strong indication of worship.
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lurdes
Guest
This is a first I never knew that we Catholic didn’t like the song “Amazing Grace” I sure like itOk, but could you tell me why this song is fine but “Amazing Grace” (which is simply about a man finding God after living a sinful life) is wrong in your Church.
I know it’s the wording
can you tell me why you say that
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rinnie
Guest
Not if you really understand her and know what she is about. What those verses mean is that is what her love for us is. She is our Mother and a mother will go to any lengths to help her children. When we pray and ask for her prayers she goes with us to God. Just like a Mother never will leave her children and will always come when they call. She loves us all. If you want to know if we think she has Power yeah the power of love. That is why she is so special that is why God left her to us. Only he knows the love she is capable of. Why do you think she was called BLessed. Blessed are you among Woman. God made her Blessed. There is a reason he picked her. He didnt have to have anyone bring him into this world. He is God. He could have came anyway he wanted. Cant you see there was more then one reason he picked her. He picked her for us too. Why do you think she came to those children and told them to go to her son and pray. Because she loves us. She knows Jesus has the power. But she also knows we have to go to him.
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here_i_stand
Guest
Go to this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7264This is a first I never knew that we Catholic didn’t like the song “Amazing Grace” I sure like it
can you tell me why you say that
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Calliope
Guest
Yes, I have seen that many times on CAF, and I fully support it, yet in this thread, in response to my own personal admission, I was told that I could not know if any Catholics had worshipped Mary. I am not asking anyone to judge anyone. The OP asked if Catholics worship Mary, and I am responding to that, yes, sometimes, it happens. I am not implying that the Catholic church teaches, supports or condones that practice as an institution, but only that there are some unfortunate times when it occurs.
In charity,
Calliope
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Calliope
Guest
No, no one said that to me. However I did find myself worshipping, none the less. I think that I am able to judge, for myself, and myself only, when my behavior and intent has crossed a line from proper honor to improper worship. I trust that others who have told me that they too had previously worshipped the Virgin in error, are likewise able to determine that for themselves.
If one can determine that they are not worshipping, I think it is fair to assume that someone can also determine when they are worshipping.
I don’t understand why people continue to argue this point. If I said that, in spite of the teachings of the Church, I had engaged in improper financial dealings, I doubt anyone would argue with me over it, and try to tell me that I don’t really know what stealing means so perhaps I didn’t really steal.
I am sorry that I engaged in behavior that brings shame to the church and offends God and the Virgin, but to lie about it, and pretend that I hadn’t engaged in such behavior would be to further sin and offend.
I know that veneration of Mary is a hot spot issue, but covering up wrong doing will not make it go away, nor will it make outsiders think better of the Catholic Church.
I think it is better to say that it sometimes happens, it is very unfortunate and the Church makes every effort to properly instruct her members so they don’t fall into error.
I find it troublesome that in this one area people are so hesitant to allow anyone to admit wrongdoing. As I said, even nuns and priests tried to tell me I had not done wrong, because they didn’t want to deal with the issue. I think that makes it seem like there is something to hide.
Calliope
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Calliope
Guest
No one can make a person worship, they might make someone go through the motions, but no one can force TRUE worship on another.
I guess you would need to define “Church”. I was led in understanding and practices by ordained priests and those who had taken religious vows. While I don’t pretend to be able to read their minds or hearts, their behaviors, teaching and attitudes did lead me to a place where improper honor was given to the Virgin.
I did not say, nor did I intend to imply that the entire institution of the Church threatened me, coerced me or physically forced me to worship the Virgin.
When I took my concerns to ordained priests of the Church, who had been put in positions of spiritual authority over me by the institution of the Church, I was told ( I believe in error) that NO CATHOLIC EVER worships the Virgin, and that I need not be concerned with my behavior. That led to a great deal of confusion for me, and did cause me to mistrust the spiritual guidance of those who had been put in a position of spiritual authority over me.
I do feel, due to the above explained circumstances, that my improper behavior was condoned, and that brought much fear and confusion to me, it was a factor in my straying from the church.
The OP did not ask if the church ever forced, coerced or instructed anyone to worship the Virgin, only if any Catholics ever did. I answered that question honestly. Now I am being accused of lying, because you assumed I was trying to defame or attack the church through my admission of wrongdoing.
The fact that some Catholics do wrong (sin) against the teachings of the church really should come as no surprise to anyone.
Calliope
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
The problem is that we are so frequently falsely accused of worshipping Our Lady, that it gets to be a very sensitive issue. It is sort of like saying that brown socks are bad, but then here comes a color blind guy who only sees brown socks – are the socks he is seeing really bad or is it just because he’s color blind?
Again, I have to say it is a matter of intention. If you at one time intended to and actually did worship Mary, I am very sorry. And I am glad that you have realized it was wrong and stopped. But, we will continue to jump and scream when anybody yells “BROWN SOCK!”.
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rinnie
Guest
See now you really got me confused now you are saying when you asked the Priest he told you No Catholic Ever worships the Virgin, ( but you believe you were told in error) this just isnt making sense now. When you asked the Priest he said no we dont, so what is the problem.
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Calliope
Guest
I told the priest I had done it, and that I knew it was wrong, and (like some posters here) he said I couldn’t have done it because Catholics NEVER do it. Like he was telling me that I was wrong, that I didn’t know what I did, because the party line is that Catholics NEVER do it…so I couldn’t have…even though I did.
It is as if I said “father, I stole a candy bar”, and he answered, “No, you couldn’t have, because Catholics don’t steal candy bars, the church teaches that stealing candy bars is wrong, so Catholics don’t do it”
and I said “but Father, I DID steal a candy bar.”
and he refused to talk about it any more and simply repeated that it was impossible, because Catholics know better than to steal a candy bar.
It was like that. So, I got very confused, and very afraid, because I couldn’t even get the situation dealt with. You can’t confess and be forgiven of something that is denied to exist by the confessor. Does that make sense?
Except it wasn’t a candy bar, it was giving Mary improper honor and worship.
They wouldn’t talk about it, they just told me such a thing doesn’t exist, the line is “we can never show her enough honor”. I was told that nothing I could do or say could ever show Mary enough honor, let alone too much.
It was many years ago, and I’ve never been able to really receive resolution on it. It continues to be a source of pain and confusion.
Calliope
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Aramis
Guest
To Pray is, literally, to ask.Because we pray to her. Many Protestants equate prayer with worship.
Prayer to God is part of Worship.
Asking those we believe to be in heaven and thus close to God to speak to God on our behalf is very human. Our prayers to the saints, including to Mary, are part of our failed state as mortal men and women… and asking them to pray for us to the lord our God shows that we know we are not worthy even to pray to God.
It is only the divine mercy that allows us any chance of salvation, and even then, having the few thousand we know have made it to paradise pray for us, well, it can’t hurt.
But Worship, worship is God’s alone. Not all prayer is worship, and some prayers to a saint are part of Worship to God.
In the Divine Liturgy of Sts John and Basil, we thank Mary fr being the willing womb, at great personal risk, and being the conduit for the Incarnation. We do not worship her, but we pray to her as part of our Worship of Jesus, since without her, his incarnation would not have happened.
But what we must always remember is that prayer to the saints only works when God wills it to. God has granted the saints access to the Holy Spirit, but it is still the Spirit of God (and thus God Himself) that does the work, due to the Saint asking him to.
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Calliope
Guest
I understand that that happens, and I am sorry for it.
I hope you can likewise understand how this issue is for me, sensitive, but on the other side.
When I bring up a legitimate concern, I have a difficult (near impossible) time getting anyone to discuss it with me, they just keep yelling “brown sock”.
I am not a brown sock, an attacker, a hater of the Church, a lier, I am a person, a soul, a brother in Christ.
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jttierney1
Guest
Calliope, OP here, thanks for sharing. I believe you. And I’m glad you came around to your senses. Too bad the priest you spoke with didn’t get it. I’m sorry for the pain this caused you. Have you tried speaking with another priest about it? It seems some of our priests and bishops have their head stuck in the sand. That’s part the reason I posted this question in the first place. I’m hopping to fill in the gaps at my parish and clear up miss-understood teachings about our catholic faith within our own ranks. My plan is to take a survey of parishioners beliefs on certain topics, Mary being one of them. Hopefully, God willing it might help.
Peace in Christ
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