Do we belong to a Church or a Mass?

[Uncle_Norbert]

After reading hundreds of posts, debating the TLM -vs- NO, I have to ask. As Catholics, is the core of our faith the Church, or a form of Mass?

It appears that the groups that are in, or near schism, focus their objection to the Post-Vatican II Catholic Church on the NO Mass. Other self-defined “traditionalists” base most of their claim of “A Church in Crisis” on the NO Mass.

So, is our faith based on the Church, or a form of Mass?

 

[blessed_wife]

Is not the Mass the “source and summit” of Christian (Catholic) life? The Mass is the heart of our Faith so how could the faithful be anything but most passionate about how the Liturgy is celebrated? And now we have a Pope who encourages parishes to offer the “Extraordinary Mass.” I belong to the Church whose being springs forth from and is nourished by the Sacrifice of the Mass.

I have the feeling you are just wanting to attack Catholics who yearn for the celebration of the Mass to be the most reverent and heavenly doing here on earth, as it rightly should be for God Himself descends upon the Altar to be our food.

 

[I_Believe]

Don’t accept opinions from laity. ( not aimed at the reply of Blessed Wife)

Look to Rome for clarification.

Alluding to the composition of the New Mass, Father Duggan states: "It is enough to compare the text of this Missal (the Missal of 1570) with the Novus Ordo of 1969 to see that there has been a revolutionary change (November AD2000).

** Fr Duggan’s contention that the liturgical change is revolutionary is corroborated by Father Joseph Gelineau SJ whose credentials for commenting on the New Mass could scarcely be more authoritative. Fr Gelineau was one of the most influential of Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium which was charged with composing the New Mass after Vatican II. He was described by the Archbishop as one of “the great masters of the international liturgical world” (The Reform of the Liturgy, page 221). Archbishop Bugnini, it will be recalled, was the principal architect of the Novus Ordo.

In his book Demain la Liturgie (The Liturgy Tomorrow), Fr Gelineau observes: “Let those, who, like myself have known and sung a Latin Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists (Le Rite Romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus). It has been destroyed (il est détruit)” (pages 9-10). **

Monsignor Klaus Gamber agrees with Fr Gelineau that the Roman Rite has been destroyed. Monsignor writes: “[A]t this critical juncture the traditional Roman Rite, more than one thousand years old, has been destroyed” (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, page 99).

Father Kenneth Baker SJ, who is editor of the Homiletic & Pastoral Review, concurs with Fr Duggan that the liturgical changes have been revolutionary. Lamenting the numerous changes imposed on the people which they scarcely had time to digest, Fr Baker wrote: “We have been overwhelmed with changes in the Church at all levels but it is the liturgical revolution which touches all of us intimately and immediately” (February 1979).

** Cardinal Ratzinger claims that our ecclesial malaise is attributable, at least in part, to the condition of the Liturgy. He writes: “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy” ** (Milestones, page 148).

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[Uncle_Norbert]

I have the feeling you are just wanting to attack Catholics who yearn for the celebration of the Mass to be the most reverent and heavenly doing here on earth, as it rightly should be for God Himself descends upon the Altar to be our food.

Oh, not at all !! I’m as Catholic as it gets. I worked at my Church as a youth, was a “marathon” altar boy, my Grandma worked at the parish where my Uncle was pastor in Chicago, my Aunt ran the office at my parish.

The Church I attend now has a very traditional look to it, and our pastor is great. We do hold hands during the Our Father, and shake hands at peacetime. But I don’t see the kind of things I read here that are told to go on at other parishes.

I also read what amounts to some pretty violent disagreement from the EF/TLM -vs- NO/OF crowds. And, as I see it, while the Mass is central to our faith, there is oh, so much more to it than that…but the anger and frustration seems to be centered on the form of Mass itself.

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

Don’t accept opinions from laity. ( not aimed at the reply of Blessed Wife)

Look to Rome for clarification.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/feb2005p15_1853.html

So, is it your position, that reversion to the TLM will fix what ails the Church?

That is the basis for my OP. That is what I seem to hear from the traditional-minded folk here.

 

[sphilomena]

I find it easy to picture your whole question with Mass as a fountain and everything flowing from it; the Eucharist as the “source and summit”… It is difficult to separate any discussion of the Church from the Mass. I_Believe has some good quotations above, and I have read Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy which has some similar thoughts.

 

[I_Believe]

To Uncle Norbert,… No, it is my assertion that tradtionalists have those in the Curia today that share our concerns, and are speaking out on these issues. The traditionalists are attacked for voicing these concerns, yet when members of the Curia voice them, it is ignored. The attacks on the traditionalists arguments continue.

Did you read the words of the man who co-authored the new Mass ? Or the words of, then Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope BXVI ?

Why brush those opinions aside, and put weight into my opinion ?
It’s easy to attack opinions of the laity.

Forget me. What are your opinions on what members of the Hierarchy have said on the issue ? Interpret their words, and then sort out the errors of the traditionalist mindset. There are many errors to pick at in our arguments, but in regard to the Liturgy, we obviously have valid concerns.

 

[I_Believe]

I find it easy to picture your whole question with Mass as a fountain and everything flowing from it; the Eucharist as the “source and summit”… It is difficult to separate any discussion of the Church from the Mass. I_Believe has some good quotations above, and I have read Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy which has some similar thoughts.

I’ve been wanting to read that book.

Each day, my love for BXVI grows. We are blessed to have him as our Holy Father.