Do we consider non-Catholic spouses as fornicating?

[hamburglar]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all. And so the Catholic Church does not recognize these couples as validly married. I am not an expert in the Sacrament of Marriage, so correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

My question is this: Are those couples who are “married” outside the Church committing the sin of fornication if they engage in sexual intercourse?

 

[MomblessedX3]

The Catholic person in the couple is committing a sin.

 

[JimG]

The Church recognizes the validity of marriages between two non-Catholic Christians. It also recognizes the validity of the marriages (natural marriage) between two non-baptized persons. If however, one party to the marriage is Catholic, that person is bound by Catholic marriage laws.

 

[1ke]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all. And so the Catholic Church does not recognize these couples as validly married. I am not an expert in the Sacrament of Marriage, so correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

My question is this: Are those couples who are “married” outside the Church committing the sin of fornication if they engage in sexual intercourse?

Only if one or both of them are Catholics who did not observe Catholic form or receive a dispensation from it.

Non-Catholics are not bound by the Catholic form of marriage. Their marriages in their own denominations or before a civil authority are perfectly valid.

It’s not clear from your post if you were referring to Catholics married outside the Church or people who are not Catholics and never were Catholics.

 

[FRATER_PAVLVS]

St Augustine of Hippo:

What, then, have we to say when conjugal chastity is discovered even in some unbelievers? Must it be said that they sin, in that they make a bad use of a gift of God, in not restoring it to the worship of Him from whom they received it? Or must these endowments, perchance, be not regarded as gifts of God at all, when they are not believers who exercise them; according to the apostle’s sentiment, when he says, Whatsoever is not of faith is sin? Romans 14:23 But who would dare to say that a gift of God is sin? For the soul and the body, and all the natural endowments which are implanted in the soul and the body, even in the persons of sinful men, are still gifts of God; for it is God who made them, and not they themselves. When it is said, Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, only those things are meant which men themselves do. When men, therefore, do without faith those things which seem to appertain to conjugal chastity, they do them either to please men, whether themselves or others, or to avoid incurring such troubles as are incidental to human nature in those things which they corruptly desire, or to pay service to devils. Sins are not really resigned, but some sins are overpowered by other sins. God forbid, then, that a man be truly called chaste who observes connubial fidelity to his wife from any other motive than devotion to the true God.

 

[Seatuck]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all. And so the Catholic Church does not recognize these couples as validly married. I am not an expert in the Sacrament of Marriage, so correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

My question is this: Are those couples who are “married” outside the Church committing the sin of fornication if they engage in sexual intercourse?

You need to clarify if you are talking about two catholics or at least one catholic and a non catholic married outside the church. In either scenario , yes , since Catholics are required to follow the norms of the church on marriage they would be fornicating if they do not. Two non catholics on the other hand do not have to be married in the church for thier marriage to be valid.

 

[jmcrae]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all.

This is completely incorrect. Non-Catholic marriages are valid marriages. Two Protestants who get married (assuming they are both baptized) have a Sacramental marriage, even if they are married in a garden by a JP.

The only people who are required to get married in the Church are Catholics. The Church does not require the impossible from people.

 

[Contarini]

Only if one or both of them are Catholics who did not observe Catholic form or receive a dispensation from it.

Non-Catholics are not bound by the Catholic form of marriage. Their marriages in their own denominations or before a civil authority are perfectly valid.

Which is why my wife said to me when we were engaged: “You can become Catholic if you want to, just do it after the wedding!”

Mind you, we’ll be celebrating our fifth wedding anniversary this weekend, and I’m still not Catholic, so she needn’t have worried!

Edwin

 

[hamburglar]

I was taught that Protestants baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit were considered Catholic, joined imperfectly to the Church, and this is why a Lutheran or Methodist person, for example, is not re-baptized when they fully embrace the Catholic faith.

 

[FRATER_PAVLVS]

In terms of legitimacy such marriages are OK.
In tems of perfection they may fall short of the mystery of the Catholic marriage.

 

[catharina]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all. And so the Catholic Church does not recognize these couples as validly married. I am not an expert in the Sacrament of Marriage, so correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

My question is this: Are those couples who are “married” outside the Church committing the sin of fornication if they engage in sexual intercourse?

I’m not 100% certain about this - and I hope an apologist will jump in here soon - but I’m rather close to certain that both parties are commiting serious sin. The question is who might be actually GUILTY of commiting serious sin. One? Or both? Or neither? Final judgment of a soul rests with the singular justice and mercy of God.

 

[mdgspencer]

This teaching is not Catholic teaching. The baptism of a Protestant may be valid, that is true at least, and then this person does have a connection with the Church. But the Church then doesn’t call that Protestant a Catholic, either in its documents or in canon law… Perhaps whoever you heard this from did not express himself or herself clearly and meant something else.

I was taught that Protestants baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit were considered Catholic, joined imperfectly to the Church, and this is why a Lutheran or Methodist person, for example, is not re-baptized when they fully embrace the Catholic faith.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not 100% certain about this - and I hope an apologist will jump in here soon - but I’m rather close to certain that both parties are commiting serious sin. The question is who might be actually GUILTY of commiting serious sin. One? Or both? Or neither? Final judgment of a soul rests with the singular justice and mercy of God.

Two non-Catholics getting married in their own tradition are not committing any sin. It is a valid marriage.

If they are both baptized (but have never been Catholic), they even have a Sacramental marriage.

 

[catharina]

Two non-Catholics getting married in their own tradition are not committing any sin. It is a valid marriage.

If they are both baptized (but have never been Catholic), they even have a Sacramental marriage.

So sorry, Jim, I mis-read the OP. I thought there was no marriage!

 

[1ke]

I was taught that Protestants baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit were considered Catholic, joined imperfectly to the Church, and this is why a Lutheran or Methodist person, for example, is not re-baptized when they fully embrace the Catholic faith.

A person baptized properly is a Christian, and therefore part of the Body of Christ. They are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church. They are not considered to be Catholics.

 

[rlg94086]

I can speak from my own experience, that it is a sin for the Catholic/non-Catholic union if the Catholic does not get a dispensation. However, an important point to make, at least according to the priest performed our third marriage (more on that in a second ), is that the children of such a union are not bastards. They are still considered legitimate children. In fact, the whole question of whether the couple is fornicating or not seems a little moot to me. Being that the marriage is invalid, they are in a constant state of mortal sin - equivalent to a couple “living in sin.”

Now for the story:

May, 1986
Me: Baptized/Confirmed, though non-practicing Presbyterian
Spouse: Cradle Catholic, but not particularly religious.
My mom wanted us to live together first because of our age (20). She is divorced/remarried and is of the false opinion that living together helps. Her mom wanted us to get married - primarily for reasons of limiting scandal. We got married with a JoP - told her mom, but didn’t tell her mom.

September, 1986
Wedding with very small group of close family/friends (~30) on a large hotel balcony with a Presbyterian minister. Only my brother seemed to notice something was odd (“don’t you need to sign a marriage certificate or something?”)…subject was successfully changed.

Easter, 1990
With baby number one on the way, we (wisely) decided that it was best to raise children in a faith that both parents share. While my wife was not particularly religious, she had more of an issue leaving the Catholic Church than I had considering the Catholic Church, so we decided that I would try Catholic parishes first. I liked it - went to RCIA and fell in love with the Church! Our priest said, “you don’t need to get your marriage blessed, the Catholic Church recognizes Presbyterian marriages.”

February, 2000
Baby number three is born, and we go to get her baptized at the parish we previously attended in California (we lived in CO at this point). Somehow the subject of our marriage comes up, and Fr. Nguyen says to spouse “you didn’t get a dispensation?” We say “what’s that?”

September, 2000
Married in the Catholic Church, and, no, we didn’t abstain for seven months.

Fourteen+ years of fornicatin,’ and we didn’t know it! Okay, we knew about some of it…

It bothered us that the priest at the time of my conversion didn’t counsel us properly, but I have forgiven him. As I was discussing with our recently transferred priest last week, I recognize the irony in the fact that this very “orthodox” or “homestyle” (thanks tee) Catholic probably had an easier time converting in that California “cafeteria” Catholic parish.

 

[Newbie2]

This is completely incorrect. Non-Catholic marriages are valid marriages. Two Protestants who get married (assuming they are both baptized) have a Sacramental marriage, even if they are married in a garden by a JP.

The only people who are required to get married in the Church are Catholics. The Church does not require the impossible from people.

Even if their Protestant tradition doesn’t consider it a sacrament? Maybe I’m not clear on “valid” vs. “Sacramental”.

Can you clarify this a bit for me?

 

[1ke]

Even if their Protestant tradition doesn’t consider it a sacrament? Maybe I’m not clear on “valid” vs. “Sacramental”.

Can you clarify this a bit for me?

Yes, a marriage between two baptized Christians is a sacrament even if their own denomination does not believe in sacraments or recognize it as a sacrament.

You are correct that valid and sacramental are two distinct things. In this case though, the marriage would be both.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

From my understanding, if two people are married outside the Church, they are not married at all. And so the Catholic Church does not recognize these couples as validly married. I am not an expert in the Sacrament of Marriage, so correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

My question is this: Are those couples who are “married” outside the Church committing the sin of fornication if they engage in sexual intercourse?

The Bible talks about the marriage between believers and unbelievers and tells us that God still considers them just as married as two believers.

And yet, Catholics do not consider a Catholic person to be validly married if they’re married to a non-Catholics.

Funny that God shows more consideration to pagans than Catholics will show to a non-Catholic.

I can speak from my own experience, that it is a sin for the Catholic/non-Catholic union if the Catholic does not get a dispensation.

Which verse is that?

 

[Harmony1988]

The Bible talks about the marriage between believers and unbelievers and tells us that God still considers them just as married as two believers.

And yet, Catholics do not consider a Catholic person to be validly married if they’re married to a non-Catholics.

Rubbish. They are considered valid. Though they have been strongly discouraged(as per the Bible too) , nevertheless they are still valid.

And whilst on that point, common sense also tell us it is discouraged. A person of a particularly strong faith marrying one with a strong opposing faith is going to encounter problems that’s not present in marriages where the two share the same faith.