Do we deserve to die?

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When Joshua fought Amalek, and the need to keep Moses’s arms and hands toward the heavens, reminds me of the Angel clothed in linen from Daniel, raising his hands to the Lord of Heaven and Earth and The Sea. Just as the angels on each side of the Golden Arc of the Covenant containing God’s testimony, remind me of the two witnesses clothed in sackcloth from the sweet and bitter book’s testimony. Just as the Israelites in the wilderness whined of the bitter water and so God gave them water sweet as honey, just as Christ said they ate manna in the wilderness and are dead. Maybe the truth of God, and therefore all things is bitter, and since all life in all its stages preferred the sweet, it is our duty to die.
 
Clovis said:
When Joshua fought Amalek, and the need to keep Moses’s arms and hands toward the heavens, reminds me of the Angel clothed in linen from Daniel, raising his hands to the Lord of Heaven and Earth and The Sea. Just as the angels on each side of the Golden Arc of the Covenant containing God’s testimony, remind me of the two witnesses clothed in sackcloth from the sweet and bitter book’s testimony. Just as the Israelites in the wilderness whined of the bitter water and so God gave them water sweet as honey, just as Christ said they ate manna in the wilderness and are dead. Maybe the truth of God, and therefore all things is bitter, and since all life in all its stages preferred the sweet, it is our duty to die.
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Our bodies die because of Adam and Eve and their original sin. Our souls are immortal and never die. Its just a question of whether our souls end up with Christ in Heaven eternally or with Satan in Hell eternally.
 
Thistle, I’m sure you have already learned not to take me too seriously, as my holiness is akin to endless twiddling of thumbs and and the babble of a mind with dementia. The only think that has congealed in my mind in all my days is the pure light of reason, therefore if reason itself is false light, I’m damned. But one thing I’ll promise to you is that I know things that you do not yet know.
 
Clovis said:
Thistle, I’m sure you have already learned not to take me too seriously, as my holiness is akin to endless twiddling of thumbs and and the babble of a mind with dementia. The only think that has congealed in my mind in all my days is the pure light of reason, therefore if reason itself is false light, I’m damned. But one thing I’ll promise to you is that I know things that you do not yet know.
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like what?
 
Do we deserve to die? Thistle gave you the right answer. Our souls are immortal; physical death entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Going a little deeper… is death a good thing, or a bad thing? On the one hand, we will leave the earth and all our earthly loves, and that can seem like a bad thing. On the other hand, when we die, we get to meet Jesus, and that is a wonderful thing. Unless, of course, we’re not in a state of grace - but that is our own choice and nobody else’s.

I recently read Peter Kreeft’s book, Love is Stronger than Death. If you want an in-depth discussion about death, I recommend it. It’s deep enough to engage the intellectual mind, and at the same time, very readable.

You can probably get it from CA’s store. (Click on “shop” at the top of the page.)

Your sister in Christ,

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
Do we deserve to die? Thistle gave you the right answer. Our souls are immortal; physical death entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Going a little deeper… is death a good thing, or a bad thing? On the one hand, we will leave the earth and all our earthly loves, and that can seem like a bad thing. On the other hand, when we die, we get to meet Jesus, and that is a wonderful thing. Unless, of course, we’re not in a state of grace - but that is our own choice and nobody else’s.

I recently read Peter Kreeft’s book, Love is Stronger than Death. If you want an in-depth discussion about death, I recommend it. It’s deep enough to engage the intellectual mind, and at the same time, very readable.

You can probably get it from CA’s store. (Click on “shop” at the top of the page.)

Your sister in Christ,

Ruthie
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I really enjoyed what you said and thought it was beautiful. Another poster I liked much mentioned Peter Kreeft, so I might want to take a look at him on day. :o
 
Death has now become a means of loving to a greater degree than when if we had never fallen. Admittedly, suffering and death enter the human condition because of man’s sin. But by Christ, the just do not suffer in this life uselessly. For in addition to any other goods God can draw from suffering, there is the certain good that, right here, right now, we can unite our sufferings with those of Our Savior, and He will give graces to whomever we ask Him to.
 
I can see how what I said sounded sort of hellish, considering it is completely rational not to wish to suffer. I’m just sort of concerned that, in the end, the human race will all need a sort of rude awakening of sorts, but at the same time I’m not stupid; I realize in the end some will go through much less trouble than others. The main reason I brought up what I did is that I believe all nations will inevitably know of the Christ in the end times, and be waiting for him. People will be confused, it will be as if they will be unsure of all they thought clear all their lives; if they continue there own dogmatic ideas without repenting, they’ll be punished, but they’ll think it is Satan trying them but it isn’t. Eventually, according to what I’ve read, many will start calling themselves the Christ or comparing themselves to him, which is a mistake as you can imagine.
 
Clovis said:
I can see how what I said sounded sort of hellish, considering it is completely rational not to wish to suffer. I’m just sort of concerned that, in the end, the human race will all need a sort of rude awakening of sorts, but at the same time I’m not stupid; I realize in the end some will go through much less trouble than others. The main reason I brought up what I did is that I believe all nations will inevitably know of the Christ in the end times, and be waiting for him. People will be confused, it will be as if they will be unsure of all they thought clear all their lives; if they continue there own dogmatic ideas without repenting, they’ll be punished, but they’ll think it is Satan trying them but it isn’t. Eventually, according to what I’ve read, many will start calling themselves the Christ or comparing themselves to him, which is a mistake as you can imagine.
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Hmm, not sure what you are trying to save here. It is all but dogma that when Christ returns, the only persons that will be prepared/waiting for Him will be most of the Jews and a remnant of Gentiles. The rest of the world will be in a basically irrevocable, irredeemable apostasy. If you do not believe this, you are practically a heretic. On the other hand, the Church has not defined what the nature of the FULLNESS of the Gentiles will be. Again, Augustinians are like, “well, there’s always got to be lots of weeds, so there can never be a near total acceptance of the Gospel by the world.” But the mystics in general don’t agree. According to EWTN, God will use an intermediate apostasy and tribulation to show the world the full consequences of non-Catholic errors, thereby reuniting Christians and bringing all but the Jews into the Church for the great age of peace. I have faith in this second scenario. But even if the age of peace is attained, it would be, as I said, all but heresy to beleive that the restoration would persevere until the Second Coming. IOW, Catholic really must accept that in the very end, sin has the final say, as it was in “Noah’s days”.
 
*You seem so certain of so much dogma yourself. This none-sense of only the Jews and remnant of the gentiles, what disgusting specifications of the unholy. People are people, each measure you demonize your own Jungian ‘Shadow’, it will turn into a demon fighting against your very right to life. The sweet and bitter book will be preach to the world.

I can only work on trying to yell on the roof tops not to accuse, but that the only thing to accuse is accusation itself, and that ‘the accuser of men’ will spot you out like a blood hound until you learn that true love of all is not judging and helping instead of pointing fingers.*
 
Clovis said:
*You seem so certain of so much dogma yourself. This none-sense of only the Jews and remnant of the gentiles, what disgusting specifications of the unholy. People are people, each measure you demonize your own Jungian ‘Shadow’, it will turn into a demon fighting against your very right to life. The sweet and bitter book will be preach to the world. *

I can only work on trying to yell on the roof tops not to accuse, but that the only thing to accuse is accusation itself, and that ‘the accuser of men’ will spot you out like a blood hound until you learn that true love of all is not judging and helping instead of pointing fingers.
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Look, man, I’m not subjectively judging anyone. And, again, I have faith that at least temperarily, the faith can be restored. I don’t think that the modern apostasy is incurable. I’d say the next one is incurable. I think you just have to accept that the fallen nature of man will eventually get the better of the human race. There’s nothing God can do about preventing that. If God could create a world that could be permanently redeemed (that is, that the world would not only return to God, but remain in such restoration forever), then there would be no point to ending the world. For if the vast majority of humanity could go on loving Him forever, then why would God end the world. We marry in order to populate heaven. But if most of humanity could indefinitely populate heaven, why would God stop it? I mean this the Catholic rationale for being generous with life. The more souls in heaven, the happier it will be.
 
“…*true love of all is not judging and helping instead of pointing fingers.”

*Well said. I have one caveat: we do need to at least try to correct our brethren when we see them going wrong. This should always be done with love, and with the consciousness that we, too, are sinners.

Before we set out to “fix” somebody, we should always keep Luke 18:9-14 in mind:
**
**He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: ****“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. **** The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. ****I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' ****But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ **** I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (RSV)

Ruthie
 
Not only we deserve to die, but also to be in Hell for our sins.
Fortunately, God is merciful.
 
water said:
Not only we deserve to die, but also to be in Hell for our sins.
Fortunately, God is merciful.
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How so? I acknowledge the fact that we should be punished for our sins. But hell is a little extreme dont you think
 
Sagefrakrobatik said:
How so? I acknowledge the fact that we should be punished for our sins. But hell is a little extreme dont you think
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With Dante’s version of Hell, there are these elaborate schemes of torture which may be over the top (I say may be b/c he did try to make the punishment fit the crime, so it also may make sense).

But Hell may also more simply be a state of being where people are allowed knowledge of the magnitude of love that they are missiing out on, without ever getting even a glimpse of who God is. Knowing that we had given God and eternal “No”.

It may be similar to that hopeless, loveless, never ending city of hate that C.S. Lewis explains at the opening of “The Great Divorce”…though of course w/o a Golden Bus that comes to Heaven…and after the night has over taken the town allowing it to move to a truely hellish lack of love.
 
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