Do we even need Rome anymore?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Walk-worthy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

Walk-worthy

Guest
I’m in my fifth decade of being Catholic and I’m witnessing a significant shift away from traditional norms which causes me to wonder why do we even need Rome any longer. Sort of like England trying to free itself from the EU through Brexit.

I grew up in the faith when clear religious instructions were not only taught in church, but at home and in Catholic schools: I.e (homosexuality was a mortal sin, marriage was a life long commitment, abortion was murder, citizenship was a privilege, the Constitution was a revered and just document, capitalism was the “only” system capable of freeing men from the bondage of poverty, and capital punishment was Biblical. Priests were men and sisters were women, and gender discrimination or discernment was not only a rediculous notion, it was cause for seeing a psychiatrist. And Muslims, Budists, Hindus were all contradictions to the Gospel!)

Now, we have a Pope and a group of Bishops who are diametrically opposed to these teachings and are dedicated to turning 2,000 years of church moral teaching on its head, and what’s worse, those who adhere to traditional values are regarded as hateful, bigoted and deserving of scorn while non-traditionalists are somehow regarded as spirit-filled and Christ-like.

Am I the only Catholic who sees what’s happening here and is struggling for a way out of this mess before it all comes crashing down?
 
Last edited:
Walk-worthy said:
Am I the only Catholic who sees what’s happening here and is struggling for a way out of this mess before it all comes crashing down?
Click to expand...
You are apparently seeing things that aren’t there, because aside from the political stuff you listed (that hasn’t ever been church doctrine) the other things certainly are.

So, yeah, I think you have a skewed view of things.

There are always people in the church led astray and sinful. So there are always problems in every age.

Do we need Rome? Who are we without Rome? As Peter said, to whom shall we go?
 
Rome is the See of Peter. She is the Mother Church. Even if the Pope and the Bishops were to espouse heresy ( which they do not), the Papal See would remain protected by the Holy Spirit. And of paramount importance.
 
Sometimes, I feel as if this is the case. But I often have such a cynical heart towards those whom I dissagree with.

However, when taing a step back. Allowing a certain air of humility and patience to fill my heart. I do see some movements toward unifying the Church with the Orthodox in some ways. More along the lines of the Protestants in others.

I was reflecting on Pope Saint Pius X’s encylical pascendi dominici gregis the other day. He warned quite clearly of “Modernists” full scale infiltrating the church. This document has been lost to the minds of many lay Catholics and many clergy too. However I think it has some relevance to what we are experiencing today.

Pope Saint Pius X outlined quite clearly what he believed the ‘modernist’ to be. But with later Church councils, this type of thinking had been somewhat nerfed. However, I believe it to be crucial to understanding how we ought to adress to crisis in the Church.

A modernist is defined as almost as a jack of all trades. They are “a philosopher, a believer, a theologian, an historian, a critic, an apologist, a reformer.” I cant help but look at it as a sign of the times. Just 10 years later the Russian revolution would occur. Communism, an idea which, in my opinion, grew from an inability for men to grow up. An inability to do one thing and do it well.

So the same ideas creep in to the Church. Which is how I relate this point back to your original point. It seems as if, we are suffering from the consequences of this thinking, more than a century later. The Church now seems to be pointing in a direction of “More power to the bishops, less power to Rome”
It comes, in my opinion from a want to be different from the Church of old. Less Iron fisted.

However, I believe weakening Rome, is away for us to weaken obedience and weaken the need for the virtue of humilty in the lay faithful and clergy. But yet, strengthening Rome, returning to days of old isn’t the solution either. Instead we should rely, more heavily now than ever before, on the dynamism of the Churches Religious orders. Dominicans, specialists in the academic and intellectuals, Benedictines, in prayer and monasticism. More modern movements like Opus Dei, preach a motto of “Do your work well, and to the best of your ability”. We need as a Church to understand that we’re not returning to days of Old.

We can however, build on the existing foundations of the Church, where by we can have those who do what they do well, in positional powers where they can best attend to the responisibilities at hand. Rome, serves its place. We are loyal to Rome, for it holds the seat of Saint Peter. We need to aid Rome, in her time of Crisis. Not criticise her. By strengthening the Orders we remove the need to weaken rome. similiar things can be said of the lay apostalates. I think also, this is why the idea of a personal prelature is more monumental than we may thing. It was opposed in many ways by ‘modernists’ However it infact strengthens Rome, as do the Orders.

This I believe is our best plan forward.

Praying for you, and entrusting my graces to Mary, perhaps that she may use them best in your Heart as she sees fit.
 
Last edited:
Oh yes it has. At least one Catholic signed the Declaration of Independence. I thought there were more. Catholics and Protestants have a long history of working together for the cause of freedom since the founding fathers. I’m quite proud of that heritage.
 
Last edited:
None of the things you claimed are true.

Dialogue and cooperation with other religions is a noble endeavor.

The Pope is a holy and extremely hard-working man. He is faithful to everything the Church teaches.

Rome is as vital as it has ever been. Human fashions are fickle and irrational. The Church is unwavering and rational.
 
The way is forward, not backwards. Returning to the past means we repeat the mistakes of the past because, regardless of what nostalgia tells us, there WERE mistakes. There always are, in any organization. This is a period of change and it is very bumpy. Hold tight and pray without ceasing.
 
Walk-worthy said:
Oh yes it has. At least two Catholics signed the Declaration of Independence.
Click to expand...
Which is in the realm of prudential judgment not Church doctrine.
Walk-worthy said:
Catholics and Protestants have a long history of working together for the cause of freedom since the founding fathers.
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with that, but again not doctrine related.
Walk-worthy said:
I’m quite proud of that heritage.
Click to expand...
That’s perfectly fine, no one is asking you not to be. This is something for history class, civics class,

When it comes to the Church teaching on participating in civic affairs, that is a good discussion within the family and within Catechism class. Faithful citizenship is something the Church teaches.

It is a prudential matter, however, as there is nothing doctrinal about the US form of government.
 
Things have been worse before. Popes have been weirder, papal courts have been more corrupt.

I mean, think about it. We don’t currently have a bunch of popes who are all from the same family, and whose highly immoral moms and grandmas are controlling everything. That happened once, though, and it turned out to be barely a blip in history.

Or there was the pope who decided to go visit papal lands not far from Rome, and that he did not need much military escort. The Muslim pirates got wind of it and went to capture him. His ship managed to get away. So the pirates raided the area he had been going to visit and enslaved all the people in the area, taking them back to Tripoli and Tunis as booty. I bet you have never even heard of that disaster.

Things can look very bad at the time, but not actually do much damage. Things can look okay at the time, but do very bad things. It is hard to tell the impact in advance.
 
Thats true. The Church has also always faced turmoil, and Rome has always faced resistance to her authority. Even way before the Reformation , Christians were divided into Arian and Orthodox, and heresies like Nestorianism, Monophysitism, and Gnosticism abounded. What we are facing today is nothing special. Satan has always targetted the Catholic faithful and will continue to do so until the end. What we need to do is to keep our eyes fixed on Christ, lest we sink.
 
Walk-worthy said:
citizenship was a privilege, the Constitution was a revered and just document, capitalism was the “only” system capable of freeing men from the bondage of poverty
Click to expand...
What do these have to do with Catholicism? The Church is a global institution; you seem to be conflating it with American conservatism.
 
In the old testament the powers of God’s people strayed when the faith of the people strayed. If we want our Church to return to God we have to repent & return to God & he will return to us.

Leaving is never the answer.

Pray, encourage others to pray. Pray some more & ask others to pray. That’s the only way. & by pray I mean the whole gamut, Mass, fast, almsgiving, mourn, confess, do penance, repent.
 
They’re mentioned because the Pope criticized countries that want to defend its borders and uphold national standards for migration and citizenship. He inserted himself into the debate. As a Catholic and a patriot, I disagree with the Pope and feel he should stay out of politics and work on saving souls.
 
Walk-worthy said:
They’re mentioned because the Pope criticized countries that want to defend its borders and uphold national standards for migration and citizenship. He inserted himself into the debate. As a Catholic and a patriot, I disagree with the Pope and feel he should stay out of politics and work on saving souls.
Click to expand...
That’s a perfectly fair opinion, but it’s just that: an opinion. Other Catholics might have the polar opposite view: that’s also fine. Those are prudential issues.

Yes, there was a Catholic who signed the Declaration of Independence. That doesn’t make it somehow a Catholic document. At that time in history I’d bet the vast majority of Catholics believed that monarchy was the best system of government.
 
Yes

Just because the Pope and his bishops do not talk like American conservatives does not mean they are modernists.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top