Do We Exist in the Mind of God?

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And I never said you did. You said creatures exist in the mind of God. And I said you cannot mix these two natures. That is contray to reason and to the teachings of the Catholic Church, both of which I have explained.
Gods essence does not become a “part” of the essence of another thing on the bases of that thing having its being in the mind of God. You haven’t shown this to be the case. You are just asserting it.
It does to me. And I pointed out to you that it is contrary to the teaching of the Church, so it cannot be held. Catholics cannot hold that view.
Just because it seems that way to you does not mean you are correct or that you have demonstrated that I am wrong. In fact you haven’t demonstrated that I am wrong or that my argument is contrary to church teaching.
 
My responses and comments are in red.
Do We Exist in the Mind of God? Simple answer: Yes!

I’m not entirely sure what that would mean for creation, and I am hesitant to agree, but I can see the reasoning behind such a concept, and I would like to discuss it further before I agree or disagree with the idea…
  1. God is not a giant man. He does not have a body. He is an Infinite Mind or intellect. Correct!
  2. God is the first cause and therefore the first being. I would have said, “God is the first being and, therefore, the first cause.”
  3. Anything that begins to exist, cannot exist “outside” of God precisely because God is infinite. Thus it cannot be said that there is an existing place where Gods being is not. We are immersed in God and permeated by God. Anything that begins to exist cannot exist “outside” of God or separably from God, but it exists distinctly from God. To see what I am saying here, think of velocity and local motion. There cannot be velocity without local motion, but it is something distinct from local motion itself. Creatures cannot exist separately from God (or, as you say, “outside” of God), although God can exist separably from His creatures. But, while creatures exist inseparably from God, they remain distinct beings from their Creator. Linux, as long as you keep the distinction between God and His creatures, then you are closer to Thomism than you think.
  4. In respect of premise 1, we are therefore permeated by and immersed within Gods mind or intellect since there is nothing outside of Gods mind or intellect. Indeed, we are permeated by and immersed within God’s Mind (or Being), but we remain distinct from Him. It is in this sense that we can say with St. Paul that in Him we live and move and have our being.
Conclusion: Therefore we move and have our being inside the mind of God.
 
Why should I agree that an apple existing in an orange is the same thing as a being existing in the mind of God? You are once again just asserting that there is a problem

Once again you haven’t proven this to be the case.

In any case My logical argument stands just the same.
The reader will just have to keep up with the arguments. It will be necessary to go back to the beginning.
God is infinite (he has no physical extension) and therefore it follows necessarily that God permeates all things and transcends them. If that were not true then logically speaking it would mean that there is a place where Gods being is not which would in turn imply that God has limits like a physical object (has finite dimensions) Nothing can contain God or displace him.
And I agree entirely.
Thus there cannot be a place outside of God as that would contradict his very nature.
And the reason this is false is because God willed to create the heavens and the earth and all the creatures thereof - and the heavens and the earth compose the place where God place them. And that place is outside himself.

THAT GOD IS NOT THE FORMAL BEING OF ALL THINGS

[1] We are now able to refute the error of certain persons who said that God is nothing other than the formal being of each thing.

[2] This being is divided into the being of substance and the being of accident. Now, we have proved that the divine being is neither the being of substance nor that of accident. God, therefore, cannot be that being by which each thing formally is…"
dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles1.htm#26

Or again, in 1 Sentences, Distinction 37, Ques 1, Thomas says : " Solution: I answer that it should be said that God is essentially in all things, not nonetheless so that he is mixed together with things as if he were a part of any thing…"
www4.desales.edu/~philtheo/lo…ntd37q1a1.html

God exists eternally and he is infinite, we exist terporally and are finite. Our place is in time, He simply Exists.

Linus2nd
 
My responses and comments are in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linux
Do We Exist in the Mind of God? Simple answer: Yes!

I’m not entirely sure what that would mean for creation, and I am hesitant to agree, but I can see the reasoning behind such a concept, and I would like to discuss it further before I agree or disagree with the idea…
  1. God is not a giant man. He does not have a body. He is an Infinite Mind or intellect. Correct!
  2. God is the first cause and therefore the first being. I would have said, “God is the first being and, therefore, the first cause.”
  3. Anything that begins to exist, cannot exist “outside” of God precisely because God is infinite. Thus it cannot be said that there is an existing place where Gods being is not. We are immersed in God and permeated by God. Anything that begins to exist cannot exist “outside” of God or separably from God, but it exists distinctly from God. To see what I am saying here, think of velocity and local motion. There cannot be velocity without local motion, but it is something distinct from local motion itself. Creatures cannot exist separately from God (or, as you say, “outside” of God), although God can exist separably from His creatures. But, while creatures exist inseparably from God, they remain distinct beings from their Creator. Linux, as long as you keep the distinction between God and His creatures, then you are closer to Thomism than you think.
  4. In respect of premise 1, we are therefore permeated by and immersed within Gods mind or intellect since there is nothing outside of Gods mind or intellect. Indeed, we are permeated by and immersed within God’s Mind (or Being), but we remain distinct from Him. It is in this sense that we can say with St. Paul that in Him we live and move and have our being.
Conclusion: Therefore we move and have our being inside the mind of God.

And this is the danger of mixing metaphore and mysticism with Philosophy and Theology.

You are not near Thomism. God’s creatures are not only distinct from Him, they do not exist in His Mind. Ontologically they exist in the created place of space and time.

God does indeed suffuse His creation but not so as to mix with it. This is what Thomas taught, this is what can be concluded from the Church’s teaching. Do I have to drag all the proofs back again and again. You know what I am ready to give up and just hand the whole thing over to people like you and Linux. Then you can believe any old thing that you take a fancy to .

Linus2nd
 
My responses and comments are in red.
I agree with everything that you said. I do agree that Gods essence and the essence of creatures are absolutely distinct. Despite what Linus Is saying I do not support pantheism.
 
1 Sentences, Distinction 37, Question 1 ( Thomas’ Commentary )
Whether God is in things.
Solution: I answer that it should be said that God is essentially in all things, not nonetheless so that he is mixed together with things as if he were a part of any thing. To make this evident, it is necessary to note three points. First, it is necessary that a mover and a thing moved and an operating agent and a thing made exist simultaneously, as is proven in Book 7 of the Physics. But this occurs in a different way in corporeal things and spiritual things. For, because a body by its essence, which is circumscribed by the boundaries of quantity, is determined to some position, it cannot be that a moving body and a moved body are in the same position. Hence, it is necessary that they exist simultaneously by contact, and in this way, a body causes change by its own power, because by all means it can, up to some point, change another thing which is unchanged that is immediately united to it. However, a spiritual substance—the essence of which is wholly independent of quantity or position and, consequently, a place—is not separated from that which it moves by place or position. But where the thing that is moved is, there is the mover itself. The soul, for instance, is in the body, and the power that moves the heavens is said to be on the right side of the sphere that it moves—motion begins from this point, as is established in Book 8 of the Physics.
The second point is that the being of any thing and of any part of it comes immediately from God, because, according to faith, we maintain that only God creates. To create, however, is to give being. The third point is that that which is the cause of being cannot desist from the operation by which being is given without the thing itself also ceasing to be. For, as Avicenna says in Book 1, Chapter 11 of the Physics, the difference between the divine agent and a natural agent is that a natural agent is only a cause of motion, and the divine agent is the cause of being. Hence, according to him, when any efficient cause is withdrawn, its effect is removed, and therefore, when a builder is withdrawn, a house’s being is not destroyed—the being whose cause is the weight of the stones that remains—but the house’s becoming is destroyed—the becoming whose cause was the builder. And similarly, when the cause of being is withdrawn, being is destroyed. For this reason, Gregory says in Book 16, Chapter 37 of Morals that all things would fall into nothingness if the hand of the omnipotent one were not preserving them. Hence, it is necessary that his operation by which he gives being be not intermittent but continuous, and for this reason, it is said in John 5:17, My father is at work until now, and I am at work. From all these points, it is plainly inferred that God is most intimate to every thing just as the being that is proper to a thing is most intimate to the thing itself, which can neither begin nor last except by God’s operation through which he is united to his work so that he is in it.
To the first, therefore, it should be said that, although the divine essence is not intrinsic to a thing as if it is a part entering into its constitution, it is nonetheless within a thing as if it is something that operates on and causes the being of each thing. In this way, it must be in every thing as an incorporeal agent, as is clear from what was said before.
To the second, it should be said that that which acts through its own absence is not the proximate cause of an effect, but the remote. For instance, the sun’s power exists at first and principally in the body united to it, and it exists in another way successively at every point until the farthest thing. This power is its light by which it acts on these lower things, as Avicenna says in Book 1, Chapter 2 of the Physics. Similarly, it is clear that a king giving an order is the primary cause of an effect, but the one executing the order is the cause that is proximate and united to the effect. God, however, operates immediately in all things. Hence, it is necessary that he be in all things.
To the third, it should be said that, as is clear from what was said before, a thing’s being cannot be conserved without a cause of being, just as motion cannot be conserved without a cause that moves. Hence, if a thing’s being is conserved without some agent, that agent will not be a cause of being, but only a cause of becoming, as a seal is the cause of a shape in wax. For this reason, when the seal is withdrawn, the shape remains, as was also said about a builder. This is an imperfect agent. Hence, the argument proceeds from false premises.
To the fourth, it should be said that, with respect to the same operation, there cannot be a twofold proximate cause in the same way, but there can be in a different way. This is clear from the following considerations. An operation is reduced as to its principle into two things: the agent itself and the agent’s power by which an operation goes forth, in a mediated way, from an agent. However, the more an agent is proximate and immediate, the more is its power mediated, and the power of the first agent is the most immediate. This is clear in the outer-most members of a series. A, B, and C are three ordered causes so that C is the last, which exercises an operation. It is then an established fact that C exercises an operation by its own power, and it is by the power of B and, more than that, by the power of A that C can do this by its own power. Hence, if it is asked why C operates, the answer is by its own power. And if it asked why by its own power, it is on account of the power of B. And it will be asked in this way until it is lead back to the power of the first cause…

If any one cares, this should prove that God’s creatures do not exist in His Mind

Linus2nd
 
This sounds to me like the inverse of pantheism: instead of G-d’s existence within everything, everything exists within G-d’s mind. I don’t think the belief is in accord with the tenets of Judaism in that the separateness of G-d’s being and His creation’s being is essential. However, G-d is necessary to maintain the life and functioning of His creation, as well as understanding and loving us better than we do ourselves.
I believe we are like a sponge in water. The water is in the sponge and the sponge is in the water such as a giant pool containing a sponge. ibid. Theologica Germanica.
 
Does anybody else want to discuss this philosophically?
Yes I have this premise. Can you finsh it for me?
  1. In order to exist at some point you must’ve been non-existant.
    so does God “exist” or is he above existance and has simply brought himself into existance? If he exists is it in a way we understand? Is he above such terms?
 
As far as Hinduism is concerned we do indeed exist inside God - whether it is the Mind or any other part of God it is not possible to say. This God is impersonal, infinite, unknowable and eternal (so we can not even call it the first cause - it always existed). All the other multiple personal Gods that we worship also exist within this impersonal One. This is panentheism
Your belief sounds rational to me. God as impersonal though can become personal through the faith of mysticism.
 
And this is the danger of mixing metaphore and mysticism with Philosophy and Theology.

Linus2nd
Even Augustine mixed metaphors and theology/philosophy. He appealed to the text in Genesis that man is made in the image of God to attempt to explain the Trinity as represented by human self-consciousness. Augustine made the point in De Trinitate (Book 9, Ch 3) that the Logos (Christ) as the Father’s self-awareness is represented in the human intellect as consciousness of self. newadvent.org/fathers/130109.htm

I was looking for Fr. Barron’s reference to the mind of God when I came across this explication of Augustine’s view of the Trinity by Fr. Barron.
See youtu.be/lGUo00j9qvw

Instead of showing impatience at others who disagree with you, try honing the virtues of kindness and patience.

I don’t see why Aquinas’ idea that God is ipsum esse subsistens - the sheer act of being itself that brings into existence contingent things - is inconsistent with an analogy to a mind conceiving thoughts. God’s creative ”thoughts” are not illusory like ours but take on subsistence of their own.

If Augustine can reference the human mind to attempt to represent the Trinity, I am not clear why a similar appeal to the human mind cannot be made to represent creation.

In Scripture, creation is represented as “spoken” by God (his Word or Logos,) and as taking on a kind of existence of its own. An idea which I think you are trying to uphold.

However, the danger in externalizing this too much is that we get into the territory of deism and away from the immanence of God in creation.

Conversely, analogically portraying creation as a “thought” of God, need not lead to pantheism because thoughts are not the entirety of a mind, any mind. I have thoughts, I am not only my thoughts. Mind conceives thoughts, but has existence separate from and beyond its thoughts, but thoughts cannot exist on their own without a mind to conceive them. Thoughts are completely contingent on the mind that raises them up.

I don’t see this analogy as problematic or inconsistent with Catholicism, as long as it is viewed as an analogy with limitations in terms of expressing the reality of creation.
 
And this is the danger of mixing metaphore and mysticism with Philosophy and Theology.

You are not near Thomism.
I don’t think you really understand what you are talking about.
God’s creatures are not only distinct from Him,
It is only required that contingent essences are distinct from God.
they do not exist in His Mind.
Nothing you have said supports this claim
Ontologically they exist in the created place of space and time.
You misunderstand. I am not simply talking about “creatures” as separate from the universe; I am talking about the entirety of creation.
God does indeed suffuse His creation but not so as to mix with it.
What does that even mean? So long as God is ontologically distinct from the nature of created things, there is no issue.
You know what I am ready to give up and just hand the whole thing over to people like you and Linux. Then you can believe any old thing that you take a fancy to .
I think you should hand it over to people who are capable of fully grasping the concepts of what is being said.

Your sense of self importance has no basis in reality.
 
God’s creatures are not only distinct from Him, they do not exist in His Mind. Ontologically they exist in the created place of space and time.
I think we talked about this also in another thread. Creatures exist in God’s Mind, not entitatively but cognitvely (as a being of reason). Entitatively and ontologically they exist in the world of space and time, as you said. In the same manner you, too, exist in my mind, not entitatively, but cognitively.

When we say that creatures “exist” in God’s Mind, we are not trying to mix metaphor with philosophy. The truth is, things like “being,” “existence,” “beauty,” etc., are analogous terms. Therefore, they are used differently in different contexts. However, the preceding paragraph above hopefully clarifies in what sense creatures are said to exist in the Mind of the Creator.

I am going to rest now, so good night and God bless!
 
Even Augustine mixed metaphors and theology/philosophy. He appealed to the text in Genesis that man is made in the image of God to attempt to explain the Trinity as represented by human self-consciousness. Augustine made the point in De Trinitate (Book 9, Ch 3) that the Logos (Christ) as the Father’s self-awareness is represented in the human intellect as consciousness of self. newadvent.org/fathers/130109.htm

I was looking for Fr. Barron’s reference to the mind of God when I came across this explication of Augustine’s view of the Trinity by Fr. Barron.
See youtu.be/lGUo00j9qvw

Instead of showing impatience at others who disagree with you, try honing the virtues of kindness and patience.

I don’t see why Aquinas’ idea that God is ipsum esse subsistens - the sheer act of being itself that brings into existence contingent things - is inconsistent with an analogy to a mind conceiving thoughts. God’s creative ”thoughts” are not illusory like ours but take on subsistence of their own.

If Augustine can reference the human mind to attempt to represent the Trinity, I am not clear why a similar appeal to the human mind cannot be made to represent creation.

In Scripture, creation is represented as “spoken” by God (his Word or Logos,) and as taking on a kind of existence of its own. An idea which I think you are trying to uphold.

However, the danger in externalizing this too much is that we get into the territory of deism and away from the immanence of God in creation.

Conversely, analogically portraying creation as a “thought” of God, need not lead to pantheism because thoughts are not the entirety of a mind, any mind. I have thoughts, I am not only my thoughts. Mind conceives thoughts, but has existence separate from and beyond its thoughts, but thoughts cannot exist on their own without a mind to conceive them. Thoughts are completely contingent on the mind that raises them up.

I don’t see this analogy as problematic or inconsistent with Catholicism, as long as it is viewed as an analogy with limitations in terms of expressing the reality of creation.
👍 Love this response!
 
Kabbalah is metaphysical and ontologic. It theaches there is nothing “Ain” Then “Ain Soph” and finally “Ain soph ur” Or the limitless light. The “Ain Soph” is the many colors within the limited light. Hince man has a “coat of many colors”.

cf.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof
 
We can view this problem in another way.

Where does the entirety creation as a whole exist?

One can argue that to speak of “where” is meaningless. We can say there is no such thing as a place outside of space since you have to have space before you can coherently speak of a place.

On the other-hand, we cannot coherently say that the universe exists in absolutely nothing at all.

So where ((analogously speaking) does creation exist?

If it cannot exist in nothing, there is only one other option. The universe Exists in Gods Mind or being; but not as a part of God’s nature, rather as a distinct nature.
 
None of the words quoted from St. Thomas’ Commentary is the word “mind”. How can you say this proves anything about a mind when he never even uses the word?

Before even reading any of the copy of the Summa. I was wondering what the definition of God’s mind might be? We hardly know much about our own human mind. Then “existing in a mind”, what is that? If I think, flower, is that “existing” in my mind or is it just a recollection of images that is not “existing”, but is God’s “mind” different and is it different to an infinite degree?

These words all seem meaninglessly undefined in your question.

Thomas talks about the existence of created things, it seems to me he concludes that God has given his creation existence, but if God must maintain it’s power of being to exist then it is not fully existent, not fully created. It’s an interesting argument that the universe is at least temporarily (for many billions of years) a stable series of cause and effect, but I don’t think it proves anything about the mind of God.
 
To set your mind at ease in terms of this idea being contrary to traditional Catholicism, I recall Fr. Barron somewhere in the Catholicism series depicting the traditional view of God in similar terms. I will post a link or reference when I find it.
I took a look at Fr. Barron’s book Catholicism, which has more or less the same content as the DVD series by the same name. In chapter 3, on “The Ineffable Mystery of God,” he does not say that we exist in the mind of God, or that we exist only in the mind of God, but some passages touch on that idea.

Barron writes that Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, as a young theologian in 1968 wrote of (in Barron’s words) “a great Intelligence who has thought the universe into being.” In that section, Barron was describing an argument for God’s existence based on the intelligibility of creation.

Also I found this interesting passage:

[Theologians] speak, for instance, of God’s omnipotence. By this they don’t mean that God is the strongest being around; they mean that God, as the very ground of existence, presses on all things with an unconditioned power. Similarly, they assert that God is omniscient. Again, this doesn’t mean so much that God is the smartest being in existence; it means that God knows the entirety of the universe into existence and hence is inescapably and personally present to every aspect of it. … Theologians speak as well of God’s omnipresence, but this should never be taken to mean that God is the vague “force” or “energy” described by devotees of the New Age. Instead it means that God transcends any particular space and hence can be construed as being present to every space.
 
Even Augustine mixed metaphors and theology/philosophy. He appealed to the text in Genesis that man is made in the image of God to attempt to explain the Trinity as represented by human self-consciousness. Augustine made the point in De Trinitate (Book 9, Ch 3) that the Logos (Christ) as the Father’s self-awareness is represented in the human intellect as consciousness of self. newadvent.org/fathers/130109.htm

I was looking for Fr. Barron’s reference to the mind of God when I came across this explication of Augustine’s view of the Trinity by Fr. Barron.
See youtu.be/lGUo00j9qvw

Instead of showing impatience at others who disagree with you, try honing the virtues of kindness and patience.

I don’t see why Aquinas’ idea that God is ipsum esse subsistens - the sheer act of being itself that brings into existence contingent things - is inconsistent with an analogy to a mind conceiving thoughts. God’s creative ”thoughts” are not illusory like ours but take on subsistence of their own.

If Augustine can reference the human mind to attempt to represent the Trinity, I am not clear why a similar appeal to the human mind cannot be made to represent creation.

In Scripture, creation is represented as “spoken” by God (his Word or Logos,) and as taking on a kind of existence of its own. An idea which I think you are trying to uphold.

However, the danger in externalizing this too much is that we get into the territory of deism and away from the immanence of God in creation.

Conversely, analogically portraying creation as a “thought” of God, need not lead to pantheism because thoughts are not the entirety of a mind, any mind. I have thoughts, I am not only my thoughts. Mind conceives thoughts, but has existence separate from and beyond its thoughts, but thoughts cannot exist on their own without a mind to conceive them. Thoughts are completely contingent on the mind that raises them up.

I don’t see this analogy as problematic or inconsistent with Catholicism, as long as it is viewed as an analogy with limitations in terms of expressing the reality of creation.
Both passages are a reflection on Augustine’s De Trinitatae. It is a meditation showing that consideration of the relationships which exist in our own mind reflect, in a manner, the way the Three Divine Persons are related to one another in the Being of God. No where in either presentation is it suggested either that our substance exists in the Mind of God or that God’s Esse ( the Actus Esse, which is God Himself), is the esse of creatures. And these are the two main issues which have been debated now over at least three or four threads. I will add that no where in the teaching of the Church is it suggested or inferred either/or both that our substance exists in the Mind of God or that God’s Esse is the esse of creatures.

Linus2nd
 
I took a look at Fr. Barron’s book Catholicism, which has more or less the same content as the DVD series by the same name. In chapter 3, on “The Ineffable Mystery of God,” he does not say that we exist in the mind of God, or that we exist only in the mind of God, but some passages touch on that idea.

Barron writes that Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, as a young theologian in 1968 wrote of (in Barron’s words) “a great Intelligence who has thought the universe into being.” In that section, Barron was describing an argument for God’s existence based on the intelligibility of creation.

Also I found this interesting passage:

[Theologians] speak, for instance, of God’s omnipotence. By this they don’t mean that God is the strongest being around; they mean that God, as the very ground of existence, presses on all things with an unconditioned power. Similarly, they assert that God is omniscient. Again, this doesn’t mean so much that God is the smartest being in existence; it means that God knows the entirety of the universe into existence and hence is inescapably and personally present to every aspect of it. … Theologians speak as well of God’s omnipresence, but this should never be taken to mean that God is the vague “force” or “energy” described by devotees of the New Age. Instead it means that God transcends any particular space and hence can be construed as being present to every space.
I do not deny this. The following is my response to another poster on the same things:

. Both passages are a reflection on Augustine’s De Trinitatae. It is a meditation showing that consideration of the relationships which exist in our own mind reflect, in a manner, the way the Three Divine Persons are related to one another in the Being of God. No where in either presentation is it suggested either that our substance exists in the Mind of God or that God’s Esse ( the Actus Esse, which is God Himself), is the esse of creatures. And these are the two main issues which have been debated now over at least three or four threads. I will add that no where in the teaching of the Church is it suggested or inferred either/or both that our substance exists in the Mind of God or that God’s Esse is the esse of creatures.

Linus2nd
 
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