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Robert_Sock
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If God were to take His ‘mind’ off of us for a mere second, would we not cease to exist?
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JohnMichaels
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I don’t have a biblical answer for this, hut I think you’re phrasing it that says we exist only in God’s mind. In which case yes, I suppose
From the way I’ve heard it though, God keeping his “mind” on us, is natural. Like you breathing. It just happens. So, if God held his breath would we die? Maybe if he held it long enough.
Then, I suppose “God” could hold it indefinitely, ya?
Mind-bender here! all aboard!
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catholictiger
Guest
I think the way you phrase the question doesn’t get at the depth of this question.
Taking from a philosophical perspective God is constantly sustaining his creation for all eternity. God is always active in the philosophical sense of the word instead of just potential. We as dependent beings go from potentiality to actuality. For us to exist there must be a ever active or actual being that is sustaining creation. God for all eternity is creating the cosmos sustaining the cosmos and moving it towards its final end himself. If this process where even to stop for one second God would have potentiality and would become a dependent being making him not God.
So to answer this question simply if God were to take his mind off for us for a millionth of a millia second we would have never been able to exist. I understand it’s a-little confusing but hopefully I answered your question.
to put it in one phrase we are completely depend on God.
Taking from a philosophical perspective God is constantly sustaining his creation for all eternity. God is always active in the philosophical sense of the word instead of just potential. We as dependent beings go from potentiality to actuality. For us to exist there must be a ever active or actual being that is sustaining creation. God for all eternity is creating the cosmos sustaining the cosmos and moving it towards its final end himself. If this process where even to stop for one second God would have potentiality and would become a dependent being making him not God.
So to answer this question simply if God were to take his mind off for us for a millionth of a millia second we would have never been able to exist. I understand it’s a-little confusing but hopefully I answered your question.
to put it in one phrase we are completely depend on God.
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Polycarp1
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No we do not. God not only created us from nothing, He holds us in existence. If a carpenter made a chair and then he left his shop the chair would continue to exist in his absence. In other words the chair is not dependent on the carpenter for it’s continued existence. Even if overtime the chair changed back to sawdust it would still continue to exist in some form… dust, saw dust or ashes.
The carpenter did not really create the chair but built it from pre-existing materials. God on the otherhand created us from nothing and we are dependent on Him for our continued existence. If God were to totally remove His will to hold us in existence we would cease to exist. There would be no pre-existing material for us to revert to.
This is only one, albiet a key action, the spirit of God has on each of us. We are totally and contunally dependent on God for our existance!
The carpenter did not really create the chair but built it from pre-existing materials. God on the otherhand created us from nothing and we are dependent on Him for our continued existence. If God were to totally remove His will to hold us in existence we would cease to exist. There would be no pre-existing material for us to revert to.
This is only one, albiet a key action, the spirit of God has on each of us. We are totally and contunally dependent on God for our existance!
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Polycarp1
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Creation is the gift of selfhood to that which had no self. This is imaged in the creation of a people which was not a people, and the creation of a self in Christ where before there had been only the incoherence, the nothingness, of sin. On God’s part, it is imaged in the Incarnation and Passion, where God’s power is exercised in a “self-emptying” (see Phil. 2.7), not in a self-assertion (not, at least, as we might understand such).
The inner meaning of creation, of God’s exercise of creative power, is not simply that other things appear, but that God imparts the true gift of selfhood where there had only been one self before, namely, Godself. Whatever else it is, creation is a self-emptying on God’s part, a making things with their own proper autonomy: “For by the very circumstance of their having been created, all things are endowed with their own stability, truth, goodness, proper laws, and order” (Gaudium et Spes 36, cited by John Paul II, “Created Things Have a Legitimate Autonomy,” in A Catechesis on the Creed, vol. 1, God, Father and Creator [Boston: Pauline Books and Media, 1996], 217]).
This does not mean that they can exist without God. In fact, they are totally dependent on God’s continual gift of self-hood, continuously ceded, continuously offered, but it does mean that it is a true gift, continuously given fully without stinting, the generation in love of myriad other selves who may enjoy themselves precisely as gifts from the Creator, as much as their proper nature permits. The Psalmist, imagines the joy of the sun as it “comes forth like a bridegroom from his or she is picturing the joy of the gift of self-hood, even in inanimate objects. It may be thought that they have their joy vicariously, through human beings, who are in the image of God. CAVADINI
The inner meaning of creation, of God’s exercise of creative power, is not simply that other things appear, but that God imparts the true gift of selfhood where there had only been one self before, namely, Godself. Whatever else it is, creation is a self-emptying on God’s part, a making things with their own proper autonomy: “For by the very circumstance of their having been created, all things are endowed with their own stability, truth, goodness, proper laws, and order” (Gaudium et Spes 36, cited by John Paul II, “Created Things Have a Legitimate Autonomy,” in A Catechesis on the Creed, vol. 1, God, Father and Creator [Boston: Pauline Books and Media, 1996], 217]).
This does not mean that they can exist without God. In fact, they are totally dependent on God’s continual gift of self-hood, continuously ceded, continuously offered, but it does mean that it is a true gift, continuously given fully without stinting, the generation in love of myriad other selves who may enjoy themselves precisely as gifts from the Creator, as much as their proper nature permits. The Psalmist, imagines the joy of the sun as it “comes forth like a bridegroom from his or she is picturing the joy of the gift of self-hood, even in inanimate objects. It may be thought that they have their joy vicariously, through human beings, who are in the image of God. CAVADINI
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billcu1
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I don’t know the catholic answer but there are the “12 links of dependant origination.” It’s a philosophical non-theistic view but you might be able to make it theistic.
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Back2Church
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The idea that everything is just inside God’s mind is a form of pantheism. We are not pantheists! 
So yes, we exist independently of God, in that he created us, rather than just imagined us or molded part of himself into us.
Things can get confusing when we consider that God is. He is being itself. There is no being without God. But that’s not to say that we are crafted out of God, but rather that he was the one thing that existed before anything else existed. Nothing is more “is” than God. Everything in the universe owes it’s existence to God, but He owes his existence to no one or no thing. He simply IS. Because of his existence, our existence is possible. Nothing could exist without God, because it’s by his will alone that anything exists at all. Before everything else, he was.
Hopefully that all made sense to someone, lol. It’s a difficult concept to convey, despite it’s actual simplicity.
So yes, we exist independently of God, in that he created us, rather than just imagined us or molded part of himself into us.
Things can get confusing when we consider that God is. He is being itself. There is no being without God. But that’s not to say that we are crafted out of God, but rather that he was the one thing that existed before anything else existed. Nothing is more “is” than God. Everything in the universe owes it’s existence to God, but He owes his existence to no one or no thing. He simply IS. Because of his existence, our existence is possible. Nothing could exist without God, because it’s by his will alone that anything exists at all. Before everything else, he was.
Hopefully that all made sense to someone, lol. It’s a difficult concept to convey, despite it’s actual simplicity.
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billcu1
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I love this thread! I am going to enjoy following it. I have some of the questions the OP raised myself!
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Qoeleth
Guest
Many people like to say if God took His mind off us for an instant, existence would disappear. But this would make us just thoughts of God. But if we are thoughts of God, then our ‘own’ thoughts are really God’s thought- so, this discussion board would be God talking to Himself!
It is possible, but doesn’t seem to be very likely…‘Things’ seem to have a coherence and a consistency which suggests that they are not just thoughts of God, but that they have some independence.
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Linusthe2nd
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From the Bible, " …in Him we live, and move, and have our being…"
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church. " 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
P.S. It is better to know the Catechism than to be the best Latinist in the world
.Linus2nd
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Robert_Sock
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In Jewish mysticism (i.e., the Tanya), it is said that there exists nothing outside of God, and if we were to see God face-to-face, we would cease to exist. I strongly agree this view!
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polytropos
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We rely on God at every moment for our existence. However, it does not quite make sense for God to “take his ‘mind’ off of us for a mere second.” That would have to be read as a metaphor, but it would imply that God can change, that God is not temporal, and that God could be less than omniscient.
I’d also note that it is technically true that, if God ceased to will our existence, we would cease to exist, God cannot change His will either. God’s act of creation was gratuitous (He did not have to do it, or could have made another world), but once He has done it, He cannot take it back, as that would require changing His will.
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Bahman
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No, I just cannot experience anything but myself since I still own my self/soul, otherwise the concept of self is an illusion, so my consciousness and free will!
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Robert_Sock
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God owns your soul. I contend that the concept of self is an illusion. The self is merely the product of reflective consciousness. As Christians, we are to destroy the self.
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catholictiger
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God keep us existing but we independent of God in the fact that we are a unique act of existence and actually at the same time share in God’s existence. But we are a self we are a unique individual with its own act of existence. The book on my desk is its own act of existence, my computer is my own act of existence, my shoes, etc. The only way we participate is that our act of existence is taken from God’s pure existence. God is directly responsible for keeping us in existence. But the self isn’t an illusion it is real.
Note your view is leaning towards pantheism. If nothing is independent of God everything is God.
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Robert_Sock
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There exists nothing but God! All is nullified in the presence of God!
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catholictiger
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so you don’t exist?
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catholictiger
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I’ll let you answer the question first that is why I separated it.
If you say that you don’t exist you are living a contradiction. How can you say that? You move, you think, you breath, you eat, sleep, etc. That means that you well have life, and looking at it from a thomistic perspective you exist. If you want to go at it from a different perspective I would love to examine it with you, but if you say that God is existence and the only one who exists than I find it hard to believe that you will be able to do it without lessening God to a point where he is not God.
Look God is responsible for our existence without him we can’t exist. But we still have a separate existence from God, our existence takes up a certain time and space. My existence is different then the person in the other room, than your existence, but at the same time our existence participates in God’s existence. Its one of the many examples of Catholic’s believing in both and or one and many.
it one of those situations where someone would ask: Do we exist independently from God or do we participate in God’s existence? the answer to the question would be yes.
the simplest way I can explain it is as follows. God creates us meaning his existence is our existence, but at the same time our existences are different aren’t the same as others.
One person is born at 11:00am the other at 11:10am both are separate acts of existence meaning that we are unique from each other and there are many existing things. But God is responsible for our existence and gives us his existence.
again we are united by God’s existence but we are many because all of our existences are different from each-other. My shoe isn’t my shirt, but all participates in God’s existence.
If you say that you don’t exist you are living a contradiction. How can you say that? You move, you think, you breath, you eat, sleep, etc. That means that you well have life, and looking at it from a thomistic perspective you exist. If you want to go at it from a different perspective I would love to examine it with you, but if you say that God is existence and the only one who exists than I find it hard to believe that you will be able to do it without lessening God to a point where he is not God.
Look God is responsible for our existence without him we can’t exist. But we still have a separate existence from God, our existence takes up a certain time and space. My existence is different then the person in the other room, than your existence, but at the same time our existence participates in God’s existence. Its one of the many examples of Catholic’s believing in both and or one and many.
it one of those situations where someone would ask: Do we exist independently from God or do we participate in God’s existence? the answer to the question would be yes.
the simplest way I can explain it is as follows. God creates us meaning his existence is our existence, but at the same time our existences are different aren’t the same as others.
One person is born at 11:00am the other at 11:10am both are separate acts of existence meaning that we are unique from each other and there are many existing things. But God is responsible for our existence and gives us his existence.
again we are united by God’s existence but we are many because all of our existences are different from each-other. My shoe isn’t my shirt, but all participates in God’s existence.
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Bahman
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First, what do you mean with reflective consciousness?
Second, how we could possibly comprehend ourselves believing that we are separate beings without having separate selves to reflect ourselves within ourselves, being aware of our selves (read third), be responsible for our action (read forth)?
Third, your picture of God and us remind me pantheism picture which a part of God is not aware of other parts, meaning that God is torturing itself by creating an image inside its mind in which there are several parts in it, each part has no consciousness toward the whole being (God).
Forth, could you please elaborate on concept of free will in this picture? I mean if we are a part of an image inside mind of God, then that is God who is deciding in each separate part, each part is not aware of decision is made by God.
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Back2Church
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If nothing exists but God, then he never created anything.
You’re concept of God is that of pantheism. I’m not saying you can’t believe it, but you can’t call it monotheism, either. Pantheism is greatly different than monotheism on a very fundamental level.
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