Do we have a duty to love our country?

[Contarini]

I’m sorry if I’ve posted this question in the wrong place, but wasn’t sure where it really belonged.

Regarding the question itself: I’ve been told that we have a duty to love our country, and I see that displayed by both Catholic and secular people (and Americans seem to be particularly zealous in this - I’m from the UK), but it is something that really mystifies me. I feel no love whatsoever for my country - if anything, I feel disdain. Is this considered to be wrong by the Church?

Thanks.

Good question. I think it would be part of the general principle of love of neighbor. Love isn’t just individual–humans form communities and you have a duty to express your love of neighbor through the communities you are part of.

I don’t think there is any duty to love the nation-state. One should obey the just demands of one’s government, but I am not sure that the UK, for instance, is the sort of thing that can be the proper subject of love. It’s pretty much a purely political entity.

But insofar as one’s “country” is more than just a government but a group of people bound together by historic ties of common culture, heritage, values, etc., I think love of country is a virtue. Not one of the most important, and often put above more central virtues. But definitely a good thing that should be cultivated.

G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis had some excellent things to say about this, both of them UK authors (Lewis was Northern Irish but spent his adult life in England; Chesterton was English) writing in eras when Britain, especially England, was a lot more prone to the kind of obnoxious, imperialistic patriotism now more commonly displayed by Americans.

Chapter 5 of Chesterton’s Orthodoxy has a great description of patriotism (especially in the fourth paragraph). He wrote a “defense of patriotism” in one of his earliest collection of essays, which is also worth reading, although the last few paragraphs make an argument irrelevant to the present situation (he criticizes the fact that the “public schools” taught Latin and Greek instead of English literature), and the last paragraph contains an offensive racial epithet (although in the context of condemning imperialism). Chapter 1 of Lewis’s The Four Loves discusses patriotism, and also has some very wise things to say.

Pope John Paul II has also written on this subject, though not, I think, magisterially. His romantic Polish nationalism (very similar to Chesterton’s version of English nationalism–and in fact Chesterton also wrote glowingly about Poland) was a private view and not, I think, binding on the Church as a whole. But like Chesterton and Lewis, I think Wojtila is a good example of healthy patriotism within an orthodox Christian context.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

That is flawed. Should Soviets have loved their country, as religion was being exterminated at gunpoint? Or Nazis, as Hitler was gassing the Jews?

Certainly. Dietrich Bonhoeffer loved his country so much that he overcame his scruples about the use of violence and became part of a plot to assassinate Hitler.

A just love of Germany in the 30s and 40s would have entailed a passionate hatred of Nazism, which was destroying Germany.

And I’m sure plenty of Russians, particularly emigres, loved Russia very much while hating Stalinism. . . . .

The Soviet Union is another matter. As I said in response to the OP, I’m not sure that the UK is the sort of thing one can really love either. I am not going to give an opinion about the United States, except to say that my misgivings about just what it would mean to be patriotic toward the United States are one of the reasons I have never become a citizen.

I think that just, well-ordered patriotism begins locally, with love of one’s city or region, whereas corrupted nationalism tends to focus on large, politically powerful entities. (Back to the German example–Germans have a strong tradition of local patriotism, and unfortunately that was overridden by the German nationalist movement beginning with Prussia and culminating in Nazism.) But that’s not to say that one should only love one’s local community–one should, after all, love all humanity. . . .

Edwin

 

[Lost_Sheep]

That is flawed. Should Soviets have loved their country, as religion was being exterminated at gunpoint? Or Nazis, as Hitler was gassing the Jews?

No, because this was the actions of the political leaders. The “country” didn’t do anything. Again, don’t confuse governments with countries.

 

[Felixir]

Good question. I think it would be part of the general principle of love of neighbor. Love isn’t just individual–humans form communities and you have a duty to express your love of neighbor through the communities you are part of.

I don’t think there is any duty to love the nation-state. One should obey the just demands of one’s government, but I am not sure that the UK, for instance, is the sort of thing that can be the proper subject of love. It’s pretty much a purely political entity.

But insofar as one’s “country” is more than just a government but a group of people bound together by historic ties of common culture, heritage, values, etc., I think love of country is a virtue. Not one of the most important, and often put above more central virtues. But definitely a good thing that should be cultivated.

G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis had some excellent things to say about this, both of them UK authors (Lewis was Northern Irish but spent his adult life in England; Chesterton was English) writing in eras when Britain, especially England, was a lot more prone to the kind of obnoxious, imperialistic patriotism now more commonly displayed by Americans.

Chapter 5 of Chesterton’s Orthodoxy has a great description of patriotism (especially in the fourth paragraph). He wrote a “defense of patriotism” in one of his earliest collection of essays, which is also worth reading, although the last few paragraphs make an argument irrelevant to the present situation (he criticizes the fact that the “public schools” taught Latin and Greek instead of English literature), and the last paragraph contains an offensive racial epithet (although in the context of condemning imperialism). Chapter 1 of Lewis’s The Four Loves discusses patriotism, and also has some very wise things to say.

Pope John Paul II has also written on this subject, though not, I think, magisterially. His romantic Polish nationalism (very similar to Chesterton’s version of English nationalism–and in fact Chesterton also wrote glowingly about Poland) was a private view and not, I think, binding on the Church as a whole. But like Chesterton and Lewis, I think Wojtila is a good example of healthy patriotism within an orthodox Christian context.

Edwin

Hi Edwin.

Thank you very much for your answer. I was unaware that Lewis and Chesterton had written on the subject, and I will certainly read what they have to say.

I agree with you - it would probably be a good thing to cultivate on the grounds of general charity for the reasons you have expressed.

Thanks again.

 

[Contarini]

Hi Edwin.

Thank you very much for your answer. I was unaware that Lewis and Chesterton had written on the subject, and I will certainly read what they have to say.

I agree with you - it would probably be a good thing to cultivate on the grounds of general charity for the reasons you have expressed.

Thanks again.

I have a particular interest in your post because I’m a UK citizen who has lived in the U.S. most of my life. So I have fairly strong feelings of patriotism toward Britain, though I don’t really think in terms of the “UK”–my feelings are highly nostalgic and are centered on several specific points:

1. The idyllic farmhouse in the Staffordshire countryside where I lived as a small child and which is the location for my earliest memories, and everything about England that goes with that idyllic image;
2. My father’s heritage in the Shetland Islands, which I visit as often as I can and to which I have become deeply attached; and
3. Most generally, the glorious cultural heritage of both England and Scotland, particularly as it connects to the previous two sites and the archetypes associated with them (gentle, lush, green rural England; rocky Shetland with its cliffs and birds and endless vistas of sea and sky).

Edwin

 

[Felixir]

I have a particular interest in your post because I’m a UK citizen who has lived in the U.S. most of my life. So I have fairly strong feelings of patriotism toward Britain, though I don’t really think in terms of the “UK”–my feelings are highly nostalgic and are centered on several specific points:

1. The idyllic farmhouse in the Staffordshire countryside where I lived as a small child and which is the location for my earliest memories, and everything about England that goes with that idyllic image;
2. My father’s heritage in the Shetland Islands, which I visit as often as I can and to which I have become deeply attached; and
3. Most generally, the glorious cultural heritage of both England and Scotland, particularly as it connects to the previous two sites and the archetypes associated with them (gentle, lush, green rural England; rocky Shetland with its cliffs and birds and endless vistas of sea and sky).

Edwin

I totally understand. I grew up in Staffordshire myself. I live in South Wales now, and have done so for almost a decade. I am regularly in the Cotswolds as I’m an Oblate of Prinknash Abbey, and am fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time in many of the more beautiful areas of the UK.

My grandmother was from Lanarkshire. She moved to Dublin and married a Belfast Catholic who worked on the coal barges in Dublin docks. My mother was born there (in Dublin - not the docks!), so I’m also an Irish citizen. Although my grandmother was born in Scotland, my great grandparents were French.

There are places here that I am fond of, but there are places in other countries, such as Italy, where I have spent time, and am equally as attached to. Perhaps I just have something ‘missing?!’

 

[jimmy]

Hi Jimmy.

I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what the relevance of your comment is to the question? Are you just offering a personal opinion, or is this based (loosely) on something more substantial

I personally wouldn’t trust someone who would support their country, as Bradski says ‘right or wrong’, and we are called to obey a higher law than that devised by our governments. In fact, it is they who have a duty to lead, legislate and govern in accord with that law.

We have to ‘render unto Caesar’, of course, but this doesn’t mean, for instance, to uphold and support abortion because the laws of our countries do.

Do I have more respect and love for the peoples of a country who have rejected the legalisation of same-sex marriage and abortion than I do for my own countrymen who embrace every error and sickness with relish and frenzy, and attack God with every breath? You bet I do! But the question is, do I have a duty to love my country regardless?

Thanks.

You have a duty to love those closest to you, and that includes your own country. You have a duty to take care of your own children before those of your neighbor, and to be loyal to them above all else. Similarly, you have a duty to the people of your country before all else. You should have loyalty to it as you would for your family. You might not agree with everything they do, but that wouldn’t change if you were in another country.

Your country isn’t the same as your govt. there should be a certain loyalty to your govt but that doesn’t mean you agree with every decision or law.

 

[benjammin]

I feel one should love their country, but they should love God more. God should come first in all our lives since he is eternal and eventually all countries will collapse. That being said, we should love it and respect our nation.

 

[Contarini]

I totally understand. I grew up in Staffordshire myself. I live in South Wales now, and have done so for almost a decade. I am regularly in the Cotswolds as I’m an Oblate of Prinknash Abbey, and am fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time in many of the more beautiful areas of the UK.

My grandmother was from Lanarkshire. She moved to Dublin and married a Belfast Catholic who worked on the coal barges in Dublin docks. My mother was born there (in Dublin - not the docks!), so I’m also an Irish citizen. Although my grandmother was born in Scotland, my great grandparents were French.

There are places here that I am fond of, but there are places in other countries, such as Italy, where I have spent time, and am equally as attached to. Perhaps I just have something ‘missing?!’

Well, the difference for me is that these places are part of my identity, as someone who has grown up in the States but has never quite “fit in.”

I think a great example of the kind of patriotism I’m talking about, and that Chesterton was talking about, is Blake’s “Jerusalem.”

Edwin

 

[Bezant]

I’m sorry if I’ve posted this question in the wrong place, but wasn’t sure where it really belonged.

Regarding the question itself: I’ve been told that we have a duty to love our country, and I see that displayed by both Catholic and secular people (and Americans seem to be particularly zealous in this - I’m from the UK), but it is something that really mystifies me. I feel no love whatsoever for my country - if anything, I feel disdain. Is this considered to be wrong by the Church?

Thanks.

There’s a joke that the U.K. is the only country where you can shout in any public place, “This country is @#%!” and you will hear supportive feedback. On the whole I’d say the U.K. is rather boring but I wouldn’t call it @#%.

As far as I’m aware the Church is only concerned whether you obey your local laws and not your sense of patriotism.

 

[Felixir]

You have a duty to love those closest to you, and that includes your own country. You have a duty to take care of your own children before those of your neighbor, and to be loyal to them above all else. Similarly, you have a duty to the people of your country before all else. You should have loyalty to it as you would for your family. You might not agree with everything they do, but that wouldn’t change if you were in another country.

Your country isn’t the same as your govt. there should be a certain loyalty to your govt but that doesn’t mean you agree with every decision or law.

Jimmy:

Can you please reference where it is that the Church teaches this? I cannot find anything in the Catechism about being loyal to your countrymen above those of other nations(?)

I need Church teaching on this, not personal opinion - not that I don’t appreciate personal insight - so if you could give me a reference I’d be very grateful.

Thanks.

 

[Felixir]

There’s a joke that the U.K. is the only country where you can shout in any public place, “This country is @#%!” and you will hear supportive feedback. On the whole I’d say the U.K. is rather boring but I wouldn’t call it @#%.

As far as I’m aware the Church is only concerned whether you obey your local laws and not your sense of patriotism.

Hi Bezant.

Thanks for the answer. I had no idea such a joke existed, but I’m not surprised!

So you’d say that the UK is rather unusual in this sense? Do you think, perhaps, that it has something to do with the wholesale destruction of any discernible identity?

I see you have leanings to the East. That’s very interesting - I’d like to hear about it.

Thanks again.

 

[thistle]

Jimmy:

Can you please reference where it is that the Church teaches this? I cannot find anything in the Catechism about being loyal to your countrymen above those of other nations(?)

I need Church teaching on this, not personal opinion - not that I don’t appreciate personal insight - so if you could give me a reference I’d be very grateful.

Thanks.

CCC 2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:
Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, “that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.”

CCC 2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

 

[savior123]

I don’t personally think that being dutiful to your country is what we’re bound to do no matter what religion or country we belong to. Religion teaches to obey rules of religion, these countries and borders are defined by humans so I don’t feel very much patriotism for my country either and I don’t think it’s wrong in any way

 

[Felixir]

CCC 2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:
Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, “that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.”

CCC 2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

Thank you very much, Thistle. This is the section of the CCC I’ve been looking for! I wish the ‘new’ Catechism was as accesible as the old Baltimore, and I wish it was less ambiguous also!

Much of what is said here has been repeated throughout this thread - we all know about our civil duities etc. Although ‘duty’ and ‘love’ are mentioned here, it is still unclear whether we have a duty to love our country. the link between general charity etc is mentioned, of course, but it is not explicit about a duty to love one’s country as distinct from love of neighbour. Now, I realize that there is no ‘love’ other than God, which entails love of neighbour, and, therefore, love of neighbour cannot be wholly seperated from ‘love’ in any sense, but I think you probably understand my meaning.

I have to say, I’m a little confused about the ‘duty’ of gratitude(?) I’m going to have to look into that. I don’t feel very grateful for having been brought up in a Godless dump. Maybe I’m too pessimistic about the ‘secular’, but then I’m in good company, as this is the same charge levelled at the Holy Father by Habermas et al.

What does this say about ‘country’ as an entity?

The question of loving the sinner but hating the sin is closely allied to this, I suppose.

Thanks again.

 

[Felixir]

I don’t personally think that being dutiful to your country is what we’re bound to do no matter what religion or country we belong to. Religion teaches to obey rules of religion, these countries and borders are defined by humans so I don’t feel very much patriotism for my country either and I don’t think it’s wrong in any way

Hi Savior.

Yes, your feelings seem to be very similar to my own. However, if the Church tells us we have it wrong, then wrong we are, and we must address the issue and put it right.

How are we to interpret CCC 2239 above?

I have looked to the Companion to the CCC, but 2239 & 40 are not ‘fleshed out’ there.

 

[Bezant]

Hi Bezant.

Thanks for the answer. I had no idea such a joke existed, but I’m not surprised!

So you’d say that the UK is rather unusual in this sense? Do you think, perhaps, that it has something to do with the wholesale destruction of any discernible identity?

I see you have leanings to the East. That’s very interesting - I’d like to hear about it.

Thanks again.

Hello Felixir,

That’s a good question and observation, and a difficult one to answer. My answer is, possibly. I wouldn’t call it a destruction of identity so much as a breakdown. During the World Wars, it was important to be patriotic and why wouldn’t you be proud of being a citizen of one of the most powerful countries in the world? Nowadays, the U.S. has (waning, IMO) hegemony and the U.K. shadows whatever the U.S. is doing. It’s much easier to be cynical than to be patriotic in your country’s twilight years, I suppose, especially you consider the #!@^&* the British did to India, Mandatory Palestine, China, the West Indies, Australia, Africa…

Furthermore, we have more diversity now – second-generation immigrants, interracial and inter religious marriage – and therefore more people have competing identities. I probably feel more patriotic about Jamaica than about Britain, even though I appear very assimilated.

The leanings to the east come from an appreciation of Eastern Catholicism.

 

[thistle]

Thank you very much, Thistle. This is the section of the CCC I’ve been looking for! I wish the ‘new’ Catechism was as accesible as the old Baltimore, and I wish it was less ambiguous also!

Much of what is said here has been repeated throughout this thread - we all know about our civil duities etc. Although ‘duty’ and ‘love’ are mentioned here, it is still unclear whether we have a duty to love our country. the link between general charity etc is mentioned, of course, but it is not explicit about a duty to love one’s country as distinct from love of neighbour. Now, I realize that there is no ‘love’ other than God, which entails love of neighbour, and, therefore, love of neighbour cannot be wholly seperated from ‘love’ in any sense, but I think you probably understand my meaning.

I have to say, I’m a little confused about the ‘duty’ of gratitude(?) I’m going to have to look into that. I don’t feel very grateful for having been brought up in a Godless dump. Maybe I’m too pessimistic about the ‘secular’, but then I’m in good company, as this is the same charge levelled at the Holy Father by Habermas et al.

What does this say about ‘country’ as an entity?

The question of loving the sinner but hating the sin is closely allied to this, I suppose.

Thanks again.

Not being American I have never used the Baltimore Catechism which is a local catechism.
I have to admit that I like the CCC which is the universal catechism becaus eit footnotes Scripture and other Church documents that underpin the teachings of the Church.

Have you tried the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is in question and answer format.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Bill_7154]

I’m sorry if I’ve posted this question in the wrong place, but wasn’t sure where it really belonged.

Regarding the question itself: I’ve been told that we have a duty to love our country, and I see that displayed by both Catholic and secular people (and Americans seem to be particularly zealous in this - I’m from the UK), but it is something that really mystifies me. I feel no love whatsoever for my country - if anything, I feel disdain. Is this considered to be wrong by the Church?

Thanks.

I am from the usa. I am Catholic. I only love ‘my country’ insofar as I love the humans that make up the citizens of this country. And as a Catholic I love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of what region of the planet they were born or raised on. I am aware of the fact that a lot of ‘countries’ go to war, but am less certain of the notion, at least in mordern times, of large groups (say 10’s of thousands or greater) of ‘going to war’ with one another ouside of having their country direct them to do so.

Now I am not up to speed on political things so there may be current wars involving 10’s of thousands of people fighting or waring with each other where someone or a group of someone’s is leading them to this war other than a country (which is controlled by its government).

When government’s/countries make mistakes, and I would think that most poeple would agree they routinely do, it impacts potentially millions of people.

The way I view the world is that it is full of humans. And individual humans make decisions and take actions. I prefer to look at the world as filled with lots of individual humans. I think that if more people viewed the world this way there would be less ‘them’ vs. ‘us’, less predjuice, and more brotherly and sisterly love between humans.

Is there something that 'the country (i.e. the government) can teach me about life that I do not already know, something of importance that I can not learn from the teachings of God and Jesus Christ?

I don’t think I can do a lot of wrong by correctly following the teachings of Jesus, but I think that I, and lots of others, can potentially do tons of wrong by following the teachings/instructions/orders of their country (i.e. their government).

When government leaders start to give away the vast majority of their wealth to charities and start sending their children off to wars that they start, I may coose to re-visit my position, that I have come to after years and years of learning. But I don’t think that day will come anytime soon. So I will continue to do what I think Jesus wants me to do, the best that I am able to do so. And those folks in washington d.c. who hold themselves up as people of such high importance, well I can’t stop them from doing so. But they don’t have my support and I don’t think that as a group they care about me or my family, or for that matter the teachings of Jesus Christ when it comes to them making their day to day choices and actions each day.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I don’t trust someone who would support another country over their own. If you don’t love your own, you can’t love another. Your responsibilities and loyalties are to those near you, not to those far away. It’s all pretend for someone to worry about those far away when they don’t care about those near to them.

What if someone lives on a border town, say very close to Mexico. Certainly they not only come into contact with Mexican’s who live near them than say people who live in Maine. So they are more likely to actually know people from another country, and possibly have family in that country, where they do not know the millions that live thousands of miles from them but happen to live within certain lines drawn in the dirt where those lines in this case would outline what could be referred to as the usa.

So if you mean what you say, and your responsibilities and loyalties are to those near you and not far away from you… this seems in direct conflict with loving one’s country and countrymen above all others.

God Bless,
Bill