Do we have a duty to love our country?

[Bill_7154]

Hi Faith.

Yes, of course we must love our neighbour, and pray for those in authority etc, and you are right, these things are bound up together. However, my neighbour is not just someone who happens to share the same nationality, nor should I just want my own nation to live in accord with the will of God. I’m just not sure what the Church actually teaches about the specific duty of loving one’s country - if the Church does actually teach anything on this concept, as it were.

Thanks.

If it does, are those teachings to be held above and more important than the teachings of Jesus Christ if the potentially come into conflict? The world was very different 2,000 years ago, and those writing of the teachings of Jesus could not have immagined things like nuclear war for example. Just wondering…

 

[Bill_7154]

That is flawed. Should Soviets have loved their country, as religion was being exterminated at gunpoint? Or Nazis, as Hitler was gassing the Jews? Oh, but you say, those were not legitimate countries - why not? What makes a country legitimate? “I don’t support the holocaust, but I support the personnel carrying it out?”

There are just wars, and there are unjust wars, and that wasn’t even a war, so perhaps the analogy is completely invalid. Digressing, I have found that men who say, “I hate the war, but love the troops”, etc., actually hate the war and have nothing but disdain for the troops, and use it as a cop-out. But, if the war is just, one must needs support both; if it isn’t, one must needs support neither.

If they had won the war, they’d be legitimate countries. As were they according to all international customary law on sovereignty during their existence.

Were not pretty much every single country in existance today formed because a group of individuals (maybe they claimed to represent some sort of government, maybe not) ran amock and murdered thousands upon thousands of people, effectively ‘stealing’ the land that the people lived on, raised familes on, and in many (if not most) cases simply were living in peace before men with guns showed up and started slaughtering them?

Has this not happened hundreds of times throughout the ages? What entities would be more responsible for such things: governments or some group of guys who decided to go out and rape and pilliage and plunder?

Governments have been used to wage war (see, governments can wage war on the backs of their taxpayers) for centuries, no? This is one primary evil of government.

War is quite expensive, but if you can force all your citizens to pay for it, then it isn’t (personally) expensive. On top of that we have widespread war profiteering…where a group of elitists at the top and in the know are in a position to invest in companies that will sell the products of war to governments (forcing taxpayers to pay) and make a hansome profit doing so. And again do the same thing with companies that will sell the products to rebuild the country that was desimated (again forcing taxpayers to foot the bill while they get rich again).

So they get you coming and going, lots of people die, and a few get very, very rich. This is won thing countires (i.e. governments) do, and do extremely well. Individuals are not really capable of doing this because wars are so expensive. This is one of the many schemes governments are responsible for, while they fill the public with propaganda about ‘keeping them safe’ and ‘promoting freedom’, etc. I say nonsense. This is one of the many reasons I do not trust governments and have contempt for them. Are these the kinds of things that Jesus wants us to be doing?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Hi Khalid.

Thank you very much for your answers - I agree with everything you say. I guess that there is no requirement, then, and I have been somewhat misled. Perhaps there was some confusion between what the Church teaches, and what various groups within the Church teach. I know, for instance, that the Knights of Our Lady stipulate that its members must love their respective countries etc.

Thanks again.

I am confused as well. As I am outspoken against government. And I have been shown quotes from some aspect of Church teaching where I am in error for not bowing down and respecting government and those in power in government as getting their authority from God.

Please correct me if I am wrong but that is the impression I was left with more than once when people provided direct quotes (never from the Bible, mind you), and I forget where from (I am too new to the Catholic Faith to know and understand the various groups that speak on behalf of the Church).

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

No, because this was the actions of the political leaders. The “country” didn’t do anything. Again, don’t confuse governments with countries.

You make a good point. And one that I think is very important. But how does one define a ‘country’ and who is in position of authority to define a country? Who would step in if there was a dispute between a group of people about what lands constituted what country? Who claims to have powers and authorities in ‘a country’? Do we all have equal power and authority? I think we should, but suspect we don’t. I suspect gov’t has a vested interest in defining what it’s ‘country’ is, what it’s contry stands for, and have heard politicians speak propaganda to suit their own ends by playing mind games on the public, tying in one’s feelings for one’s ‘country’ for what that politician is saying or asking citizens to do (including going out and dying for ‘their country’ when some men get rich by these wars, and make sure their sons and daughters are tucked away someplace nice and safe while the war is happening.

I can’t and don’t respect such people.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

You have a duty to love those closest to you, and that includes your own country. You have a duty to take care of your own children before those of your neighbor, and to be loyal to them above all else. Similarly, you have a duty to the people of your country before all else. You should have loyalty to it as you would for your family.

Your country isn’t the same as your govt. there should be a certain loyalty to your govt but that doesn’t mean you agree with every decision or law.

Does Jesus say this (what you’ve written in the first paragraph, in particular about I ‘should’ have loyalty and a duty to every single person in my country before loyalty to people in other countries, or duties to them (assuming I don’t have family in other countries which would take presidence according to you- and something I agree with)?

I don’t have loyalty to the government that controls the contry in which I live. Further, it is not ‘my’ government. My name is not on the declaration of independence. I didn’t sign up for what this government statnds for or does to it’s citizens and citizens of other lands on a regular basis. I have numerous moral objections that prevent me from having loyalty to such a government.

This doesnt mean anything other than I am actively outspoken against it and most of what it does and stands for. I am a peaceful person and a follower of the teachings of Jesus.

If someone were to lay out the million plus laws that must be in existance today, how many would I disagree with? More than a few, that’s for sure.

How many would you disagree with (I’m sure there are a million we don’t even have any awareness of, yet we pay for them and pay for people to ‘oversee’ and ‘inspect’ and ‘check’ on the entities that are to be in compliance with such laws.

In short, I think gov’t is waaaaay out of control and dont think slipping a pice of paper in a ballot box is going to do the slightest thing to change that.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

There’s a joke that the U.K. is the only country where you can shout in any public place, “This country is @#%!” and you will hear supportive feedback. On the whole I’d say the U.K. is rather boring but I wouldn’t call it @#%.

Unfortunately, IMO, the UK and USA are a couple of the only first world counties considered to be ‘powerful’ that share the distinction of having many draconian laws and policies and practices. So much for the land of the free lol

Personally I can not wait until I retire as I am moving out of the usa to a 3rd world country where the corruption is more up close and in your face where you can see it (police looking for small bribes) rather than awash in propaganda…

 

[Bill_7154]

CCC 2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:
Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, “that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.”

CCC 2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

I’m curious, what does the CCC have to say about those who assume positions of authority in government? (as I would love to see how closely in line they are with what is expected of them, their hearts, their minds, their actions, etc…). If the leaders are falling short (which I am positive they are, and by a wide margin) is it any wonder citizens would question them?

And I think it’s very sad that anyone ever utters the phrase ‘having ‘faith’ in government’ or any similar type phrase, which I also think is not uncommon. I would consider that close to, if not outright, blasphemy.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Hi Savior.

Yes, your feelings seem to be very similar to my own. However, if the Church tells us we have it wrong, then wrong we are, and we must address the issue and put it right.

How are we to interpret CCC 2239 above?

I have looked to the Companion to the CCC, but 2239 & 40 are not ‘fleshed out’ there.

Again I ask what the CCC has to say about those who are in postions of authority and power in government. I’d like to make a determination about how closely they are themselves following…

…and as far as a Catholic…there are other things on my list that I put of greater importance than following this aspect of the CCC. And I feel no shame in admitting as much. I also think there are probably, in my estimation, many, many things I have to work on to improve as a Catholic before addressing my opinions about the gov’t of the usa.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[FaithBuild18]

I love my Lord Jesus Christ, who is God. And if my country refuses to be under his divine rule, then no, I will never, ever, ever love my country.

 

[jimmy]

What if someone lives on a border town, say very close to Mexico. Certainly they not only come into contact with Mexican’s who live near them than say people who live in Maine. So they are more likely to actually know people from another country, and possibly have family in that country, where they do not know the millions that live thousands of miles from them but happen to live within certain lines drawn in the dirt where those lines in this case would outline what could be referred to as the usa.

So if you mean what you say, and your responsibilities and loyalties are to those near you and not far away from you… this seems in direct conflict with loving one’s country and countrymen above all others.

God Bless,
Bill

There is no conflict, but even if there is you have taken a specific situation and generalized it to the whole. It doesn’t work. The fact is, you have responsibility to those closest to you. If you abandon your wife and kids to serve the poor or become a monk you are wrong. My responsibility is to those near me. If my family’s needs are met, then I should worry about those of my community ahead of those of some foreign community. People who generalize love so that you shouldn’t have greater love for specific people tend to love no one. They’re bitter people who just want to fight.

If you know mexicans, great, help them if they need it. I never said you can’t. That doesn’t imply in any way though that your responsibility to your community are any less.

You disagree with some laws. So what? So do I. If you don’t like a law then fight to get it changed.

If you don’t like the basis of this country you might be better off though in another country. If you don’t like the principles of freedom this country offers, you might be happier in another country. And frankly, so would everyone else. The people of every country deserve to have their fellow countrymen on their side when there is a crisis, not someone who is going to complain about how aweful it is.

 

[Bill_7154]

There is no conflict, but even if there is you have taken a specific situation and generalized it to the whole. It doesn’t work. The fact is, you have responsibility to those closest to you. If you abandon your wife and kids to serve the poor or become a monk you are wrong. My responsibility is to those near me. If my family’s needs are met, then I should worry about those of my community ahead of those of some foreign community. People who generalize love so that you shouldn’t have greater love for specific people tend to love no one. They’re bitter people who just want to fight…

Leaving aside the family part, what is the end result of people only helping those who live close to them? I mean think aobut it. People in Beverly Hills only helping those that live in or very close to Beverly Hills. People who live in silicon valley only helping those that live in silicon valley. People who live in the wealthest towns in the wealthiest countries only helping those who also live in the wealthiest towns the the wealthiest countires… that contrasted with those who live in the poorest towns in the poorest countries… does this mean that the lepers in India get the wonderful opportunity to give the gift of one of their fingers that just fell off to one of their neighbor lepers so they can mix it with the cow dung stew they are planning to serve for dinner that night?

I think I made my point. Argue it if you wish.

If you know mexicans, great, help them if they need it. I never said you can’t. That doesn’t imply in any way though that your responsibility to your community are any less…

I don’t really know any mexicans. But I refer you to my above point with respect to ‘helping your own community’ (and do think I raise a very interesting point there my friend).

You disagree with some laws. So what? So do I. If you don’t like a law then fight to get it changed. .

I don’t have the resources to fight to get even one law I disagree with changed, let alone the thousands that I probably disagree with if I had the time to read about all the laws in existance. Nor do I accept this as the only means to deal with a law that one disagrees with. There is civil disobedience and jury nullification.

I also have major problems with the government. I see it as a huge disfunctional machine. Working within such a huge disfuctional machine to successfully get one particular law changed doesn’t seem realistic to me. Does it seem that way to you? How many hours do you think it would take for a person to take up the cause of seeing a law changed and successfully seeing that through?

If you don’t like the basis of this country you might be better off though in another country…

I will be. And when I can afford to move, I will. Do you know there is an increasing trend of retiree’s moving out of the usa to move into other countries?

If you don’t like the principles of freedom this country offers,.

I disagree with your premise. I don’t think this country offers ‘freedoms’ I think it did when it was first founded. And since that time, and in particular since the late 60’s our individual freedoms have been being stripped from us on a grand scale year by year since that time. Do you recongize this?

you might be happier in another country. And frankly, so would everyone else. The people of every country deserve to have their fellow countrymen on their side when there is a crisis, not someone who is going to complain about how aweful it is.

Excuse me? Have you read what I wrote. I was clear to state that if my ‘county’ one means the people who live there I am in support.

I am not supportive of the us government. I didn’t sign the declaration of independence and the gov’t doesn’t check withe me (or give a ****) about what my (or your) opinion is on ANY issue or cause they deem to be important or deem to merit paying some attention to.

So I suggest as a better idea for my countrymen to wake the heck up and realize that your rights are being stripped away from you by your own government, they plan to continue to do this, and they plan to tax you to death while you do it.

I bet Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he saw how the us gov’t ran things nowadays and also bet he would roll over in his grave knowing so many of his ‘countrymen’ freely give away their rights to the government, and more than that seem to be happy to do so, and be taxed for the priveledge.

I suggest you read some american history. Maybe the Federalist Papers. The history of Jury Nullification and the many prominant figures who supported this (including at least one supreme court justice (Justice Jackson).

I also find it intersesting that you are so extremely pompous that you, without hesitation, go ahead and presume to speak for every citizen of this entire country. With anyone that arrogant I consider them to be a danger in general, if not just a danger to my freedoms and the freedoms of others. Outrageous!

If we wind up in crisis brother, as in some foreign invasion, your going to wish you were my neighbor rather than some random person’s neighbor. I have no doubt. And since I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ I would do my best to protect you from immenent danger even though you are so arrogant to presume to speak for every citizen in this entire country.

God Bless (and thank God you don’t live in a lepor colony with people of your mindset advocating how help should be distributed between people around the planet)
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I love my Lord Jesus Christ, who is God. And if my country refuses to be under his divine rule, then no, I will never, ever, ever love my country.

So then, as I, you think that it’s important and would make a difference if the people in power in the us gov’t followed the teachings of Jesus Christ?

How good (or bad) of a job would you say they are doing on that front so far, and in the last 50 years or so in particular?

I’m also still waiting and quite curious to see someone quote from the CCC how our government leaders are supposed to behave. I think that I must have read about 1/2 dozen times the CCC referred to when talking about citizens and how they are supposed to behave towards government.

Since those in government are the ones with the power, I would think that THEIR behavior, much moreso than some random citizens behavior, has more bearing on how the world turns out. Also, I’m familiar with this concept of people following the examples of those who are their leaders (be it in companies, whatever) and think the same concept applies to governments and citizens.

If someone could please educate me on this I would be greatly appreciative.

Thank you and God Bless,
Bill

 

[thistle]

I’m curious, what does the CCC have to say about those who assume positions of authority in government? (as I would love to see how closely in line they are with what is expected of them, their hearts, their minds, their actions, etc…). If the leaders are falling short (which I am positive they are, and by a wide margin) is it any wonder citizens would question them?

And I think it’s very sad that anyone ever utters the phrase ‘having ‘faith’ in government’ or any similar type phrase, which I also think is not uncommon. I would consider that close to, if not outright, blasphemy.

God Bless,
Bill

THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY

CCC 2234 God’s fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it.

Duties of civil authorities

CCC 2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. “Whoever would be great among you must be your servant.” The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

CCC 2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.

CCC 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.

The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

 

[Bill_7154]

THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY

CCC 2234 God’s fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good.

So, those who do not work for ‘our good’ should not be honored, right?

have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it…

So they have duties which have been made clear to them, yes?

Duties of civil authorities

CCC 2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. …

I don’t believe or agree that most high level politicians follow this duty. I think they do it as a self-service. They certainly spend a lot of money for the priveledge and get the backing of a lot of rich people too. And I am to believe that all this money is to get people elected, not for their own good, and not for the good of those funding them, but for YOUR and MY good?

“Whoever would be great among you must be your servant.”.

Sounds wonderful. Nothing I will disagree with there. But I will point out that there are plenty that are among us that would be great that don’t stand one iota of a chance of getting elected since they don’t have the backing of the rich. Anyone disagree with this when it comes to high level gov’t office holders? Examples of people who got elected president or senator without being rich or at least having the backing of the rich?

The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law…

If the authority is measured morally, well we have seen our share of scandals. And as far as no one being able to command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons or natural law…I find that this takes place on a routine basis and is another reason to consider those in high office as self serving and not resecting human dignity (abortion, locking up people for possession of substances in prison and ruining their and their famlies lives, I’m sure there are plenty of other examples, those are a couple that are of particular importance to me.

CCC 2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values…

The proof is in the pudding and I don’t see a just hierarchy of values when I look at the us gov’t.

in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom…

war on drugs and patriot act have taken away tons of citizens freedoms. Another reason to not respect those in postions of authority in government.

and responsibility by all…

Entitlement programs that waste billions and keep people poor and dependent anyone?

Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace…

Not sure what to say here. Lost pallets full of $100 bills in Iraq comes to mind. And I don’t get the sense that politicians really want harmony and peace. Watch their political ads. They speak for themselves. If they are going to behave this way in front of the world, how are they going to behave when no one is watching?

They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community…

Like gov’t workers getting paid more for the same jobs as those in the private sector and don’t do hardly any work and have pensions when most private companies have done away with them? Giving friends and people who contribute to their campaigns special favors or cushy jobs where they consult or sit on a board and collect fat fee’s for not doing much? Another fail here.

CCC 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person…

Ask some who live in the ghetto how the police treat them. Rodney King much? Beaten 3/4 to death on national tv and it’s justified? I watched that and when he stopped moving for a moment (when someone is drunk, beaten senseless, all they can think to do is try to get up…so that is what he was doing long after he posed any threat yet that was used as an excuse to whale away on him…and when he lost the ability to do that a cop stomped on the back of his head to get him to move again…and more whaling away commensed.

Where are the civilian review boards for police? People get talked to more politely by minimum wage customer service workers at walmart than they do by police handing them out a ticket if they dare open their mouth…

They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged…

Drug war. Institutionalized racism. It’s a war on black and brown and poor white people, not a war on drugs. And the familes of these disadvantaged suffer a great deal because of it.

The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

Now you know why I don’t respect government. Shameful.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[djames99]

Indeed, I am proud of their accomplishments, but I’m displeased with their sins. I love them only as far as they are social creations and recognize their Authority.

And this is the tie that binds…

MATER ET MAGISTRA

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE JOHN XXIII
ON CHRISTIANITY AND SOCIAL PROGRESS

MAY 15, 1961

Mother and Teacher of all nations—such is the Catholic Church in the mind of her Founder, Jesus Christ; to hold the world in an embrace of love, that men, in every age, should find in her their own completeness in a higher order of living, and their ultimate salvation. She is “the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1) To her was entrusted by her holy Founder the twofold task of giving life to her children and of teaching them and guiding them—both as individuals and as nations—with maternal care. Great is their dignity, a dignity which she has always guarded most zealously and held in the highest esteem.

We can see that there is the possibility that a student may be truant, and thus be disadvantaged in learning lessons that could help it. A student is loyal to it’s teacher and here in is where the loyalty lies. We love the student so far as it follows the dictates of the head of the School Board, which directs him to submit to the teachers teachings.

 

[djames99]

Ref: Radio Replies* (truncation mine)

1. But the great objection to your Church remains, in that it divides a man’s loyalty from his country…
   
   Loyalty to the Catholic Church does not divide a man’s loyalty from his country. In religious matters a Catholic obeys his Church; in temporal affairs, the laws of his country. They are services in two different spheres.
2. But does not your allegiance to the Pope conflict with your duty as British subject?
   .
   … I can be subject to my earthly ruler in temporals and the representative of Christ in spirituals. Until the Reformation all Englishmen were subject to the Pope, yet were filled with great love for their country… The only Catholics in the world who owe temporal allegiance to the Pope are those who actually reside in Vatican city, over which, over which only, he has the full rights as temporal ruler. If, through unjust ambition, the Vatican city state were to dispatch an immense army to invade Austria, it would be the duty of Austrian Catholics to join the Austrian army and defend their country.
3. “Render to Caesar …”
   .
   The Pope demands independence of any earthly king’s/parliament/congressional authority precisely that Caesar, with his worldly power, may not interfere with the things that belong to God.

Vol I of 3 (Fathers Rumble & Crty, forward by Late Msgr.Fulton Sheen)
amazon.ca/Radio-Replies-Three-Volume-Set/dp/0895551594

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m sorry if I’ve posted this question in the wrong place, but wasn’t sure where it really belonged.

Regarding the question itself: I’ve been told that we have a duty to love our country, and I see that displayed by both Catholic and secular people (and Americans seem to be particularly zealous in this - I’m from the UK), but it is something that really mystifies me. I feel no love whatsoever for my country - if anything, I feel disdain. Is this considered to be wrong by the Church?

Thanks.

I cannot see how there is obligation to feel one way or another.

If you work for the government, you might find it easier to like what you do and it helps you put in an honest days work. It may not be easy to work for say an embassy if you are odds with the current government.

The Church says very little about specific political allegiance other than its skepticism of central planning, socialism and communism as well as capitalism without a conscience.

I used to live in the UK and I can understand how you feel.

 

[SuperLuigi]

And I am to believe that all this money is to get people elected, not for their own good, and not for the good of those funding them, but for YOUR and MY good?

Not in a million years.

 

[Bill_7154]

I’m curious about something:

Does ‘the state’ fear the Catholic Church? Does the Catholic Church fear the state? When I ask these questions I mean even in very, very subtle forms… I’m not talking about fear of one overthrowing the other… or one taking drastic measures against the other… but in potentially very subtle ways does one fear that the other may influence the other or exercize power in such a way as to lessen the power of the other?

The reason I ask is because I’ve seen the CCC quoted quite a bit, I’m still very unfamiliar with it. And from what I have seen quoted a lot pertains to an individual Catholics duty to one’s country or similar.

Could the Church, whom I believe falls under the jurisdiction of the state moreso than the other way around (the state passes laws which must be obeyed by everyone, the Church does not have that power) be influenced by the state?

I know physicians are influenced by the state, even when it comes to prescribing pain medications to dying people with weeks to live who are in excrutiating pain. They have the state, the DEA, looking over their shoulder and watching how many pain drugs they prescribe, how often, and to who…in relation to their peers. Now if I was a doctor I would be concerned more about keeping my medical license and continuing to be able to provide for my family than I would care about the individual suffering of one of my patients.

I’ve said it before, if there was no DEA, no state monitoring the prescribing practices of physicians who treat pain patients (skip the exception of the FL laws that have been changed where there were pill mills) and stay focused on the big picture please…I believe if there were no DEA watching these doctors and their prescribing habits they would prescribe more pain medication to patients than they do at present. It only stands to reason. There is no reason to believe they would prescribe less pain medication if the DEA was not scrutinizing their prescribing practices…so who wants to be the doctor in their field who (assuming all other dr’s have the same caseload with resepct to degree of pain of patients and same number of patients)…who wants to be the doctor who falls in the catagory of top 5% of pain med prescribing? I think it would take a LOT of courage knowing the DEA is watching and that doctors can and do get their license to practice medicine yanked from them.

So I think a lot of doctor’s ‘play it safe’ and stick to ‘standard practices’. But if there were no DEA watching why would they ever prescribe LESS? This makes no sense.

My point: Dr’s have fear of the state, and this shapes their behavior.

Does the Catholic Church fear the state? Does this shape their behavior? Would the CCC read the exact same way if there was no state?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[cmforte]

but, for example, the phrase: ‘My country right or wrong’ is abhorrent to me.

It is still your country, and instead of hating it when it is wrong, you should love it enough to want to try to make it right. I am a very proud, patriotic American, almost an all-out nationalist, one who believes in American Exceptionalism, but I recognize that the USA isn’t perfect and is wrong at times (maybe many times) and when that happens I don’t stop loving it, I pray for it and I try to rectify that.

Yes, “my country, right or wrong.”

-Chris