Do we have a duty to love our country?

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You disagree with some laws. So what? So do I. If you don’t like a law then fight to get it changed.
True, and any one who claims they can not change a law is a liar or lazy. Laws get changed all the time in the US thanks to grass-roots movements and lobbying of private, everyday citizens.
:thumbsup:Thank you!! I was just about to say almost the exact same thing!!! Bill even infers a disdain for the Declaration of Independence, the document that spelled out the very reason for our nation’s revolt and creation!! If he doesn’t like it, feels no love for the very basis of our nation, then why stay here? :confused:

-Chris
 
Unfortunately, IMO, the UK and USA are a couple of the only first world counties considered to be ‘powerful’ that share the distinction of having many draconian laws and policies and practices. So much for the land of the free lol
Please name one “draconian law” and explain why *you think *
Not only corruption, but violence, too. I can’t wait until you do. Please report your experiences. It is my guess you’ll be running back to the US after a few weeks.

-Chris
 
I like my country very much.

I love people and my pets- I guess.

But then again I don’t believe in American exceptionalism so. . . .
 
:thumbsup:Thank you!! I was just about to say almost the exact same thing!!! Bill even infers a disdain for the Declaration of Independence, the document that spelled out the very reason for our nation’s revolt and creation!! If he doesn’t like it, feels no love for the very basis of our nation, then why stay here? :confused:

-Chris
Is America a country or a religion?

Normal countries are bound together by a shared heritage, not by adherence to some set of doctrines. You stay with your country for the same reason you stay with your family.

To my mind, the frequency with which Americans ask the question “why not leave if you don’t like it” indicates a lack of patriotism in America, not the presence of real patriotism.

Real patriotism has nothing whatever to do with adherence to some supposed set of principles “on which the country was founded.” That’s something else–a kind of secular religion.

For the record, I would leave if family and work circumstances allowed (i.e., if it didn’t mean separating my kids from their grandparents, particularly their maternal grandfather, and if I could find a job in Britain–since I have now lost the full-time job I used to have here I’ve been seriously considering it). But that’s not because I particularly dislike America. It’s a perfectly fine country, as long as it is content to be a country and not a religion.

Edwin
 
It is still your country, and instead of hating it when it is wrong, you should love it enough to want to try to make it right. I am a very proud, patriotic American, almost an all-out nationalist, one who believes in American Exceptionalism, but I recognize that the USA isn’t perfect and is wrong at times (maybe many times) and when that happens I don’t stop loving it, I pray for it and I try to rectify that.

Yes, “my country, right or wrong.”

-Chris
It depends on what you mean. Again, Chesterton said it best–if you really love your country you will (as you indicated) try to fix it when it is wrong rather than just abandoning it. But the creed of “exceptionalism” corrupts patriotism, because it implies that you love America not because it’s your country but because it has some feature that makes it different from other countries. When President Obama gave exceptionalism its legitimate meaning (i.e., the same kind of preference, stemming from love and familiarity, that anyone would have for their country), he got criticized. So apparently that’s not what the self-proclaimed exceptionalists mean by it.

“My country, right or wrong” has often meant “I will take the side of my government against other governments no matter the rights or wrongs of the cause.” And that’s simply injustice.

Edwin

Edwin
 
i believe the virtue of patriotism covers this

“liberties they are ours because there was some goodness, let it be just natural goodness, in some of the men who founded this country and gave it its ideals and its Constitution. We ought to thank God for that. That’s true patriotism, and patriotism is part of the virtue of religion. The virtue of patriotism includes an active participation in whatever good we can support in the large society in which we live. We should support those running for office who are committed to protecting the just ideals found in the Constitution and to defending the country against subversion and betrayal and treason.”
this type of admiration can also be filial love Eg: St Robert Bellarmine drawn towards his idea of a democratic society with a constitution.

-http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6607
Shalom
God Bless Y’ALL
 
Is America a country or a religion?

Normal countries are bound together by a shared heritage, not by adherence to some set of doctrines. You stay with your country for the same reason you stay with your family.

To my mind, the frequency with which Americans ask the question “why not leave if you don’t like it” indicates a lack of patriotism in America, not the presence of real patriotism.

Real patriotism has nothing whatever to do with adherence to some supposed set of principles “on which the country was founded.” That’s something else–a kind of secular religion.

For the record, I would leave if family and work circumstances allowed (i.e., if it didn’t mean separating my kids from their grandparents, particularly their maternal grandfather, and if I could find a job in Britain–since I have now lost the full-time job I used to have here I’ve been seriously considering it). But that’s not because I particularly dislike America. It’s a perfectly fine country, as long as it is content to be a country and not a religion.

Edwin
 
Is America a country or a religion?

Normal countries are bound together by a shared heritage, not by adherence to some set of doctrines. You stay with your country for the same reason you stay with your family.

To my mind, the frequency with which Americans ask the question “why not leave if you don’t like it” indicates a lack of patriotism in America, not the presence of real patriotism.

Real patriotism has nothing whatever to do with adherence to some supposed set of principles “on which the country was founded.” That’s something else–a kind of secular religion.

For the record, I would leave if family and work circumstances allowed (i.e., if it didn’t mean separating my kids from their grandparents, particularly their maternal grandfather, and if I could find a job in Britain–since I have now lost the full-time job I used to have here I’ve been seriously considering it). But that’s not because I particularly dislike America. It’s a perfectly fine country, as long as it is content to be a country and not a religion.

Edwin
Edwin: I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. However, I do disagree with any kind of notion of moving to Britain! I’ll pray for the recovery of your senses!
 
Edwin: I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. However, I do disagree with any kind of notion of moving to Britain! I’ll pray for the recovery of your senses!
Well, the part of Britain I’d like to live in is Shetland, which is a bit different. . . . but I’d love to live in mainland Scotland or England as well. Every country has its disadvantages. I have some idea what the problems of contemporary Britain are, but I am a British subject and so they are, in a sense, my problems.

But while I’m in America I’ll deal with the problems there. I really would love to live nearly anywhere–it’s easy to be dissatisfied with the place where you are (which for me is northern Indiana). But God is everywhere and God’s creation, with all its brokenness and glory, is everywhere.

Edwin
 
:thumbsup:Thank you!! I was just about to say almost the exact same thing!!! Bill even infers a disdain for the Declaration of Independence, the document that spelled out the very reason for our nation’s revolt and creation!! If he doesn’t like it, feels no love for the very basis of our nation, then why stay here? :confused:

-Chris
What I said, or at least meant to imply with regards to that is that MY NAME is not on it. Therefore, I did not consent personally to be part of this gov’t or to be ruled by it. When I can afford to move to another country I will. It is part of my plan, just not able to act on it yet. Does that help ‘unconfuse’ you?
 
The patriot act and the invasions of privacy that this entails or allows. The increased difficulties (albeit not a right but a freedom I used to enjoy) where I could board an airplane without even showing ID. Now they want to probe my anus. The push for national ID cards. The advocation for RFID chips.

Every law that has been created since I have been born, as all laws restrict freedoms. All the rules and regulations (along with the fees and taxes) as well as INFLATION that is the biggest tax of all, created by government that leaves me with less money to support my family and more into the greedy hands of governenmt.

Police when I was a child used to walk the beat and were friendly with all the citizens. Since the drug war started this IMO is what has changed the way the police act towards citizens in public. They do not routinely chat with citizens in public anymore. They don’t put on friendly and welcoming faces, they are stone faced.

They bark at citizen like they are dogs when handing out speeding tickets if you have the nerve to question them, even in a very calm and polite manner (and I am quite sure they do this and worse when stopping people for worse offenses). You get more respect from a min wage custoomer service employee at walmart than you do the police.

Along with the implementation of laws, once implemented gov’t uses that law to cast a wider and wider net around more and more citizens than they originally said the law was designed for.

The jailing of millions of my brothers and sisters under God for non violent drug offenses that ruins familes, ruins the individuals opportunities to work in the future, costs trillions of dollars, and gets tens of thousands of people murdered while making drugs easier for children to obtain than alcohol.

The confiscation of my fellow brother and sisters under God’s cheap used cars under the ‘asset forfeiture law’ that was pitched to the public and created to be used against international drug lords worth hundrends of millions of dollars…now the average seizure is like a 3K used car. My hard working neighbors cars.

The application of the ‘school zone’ drug law when created it was pitched to be applied to adutls selling drugs to children on schoolyards. Now it is applied to anyone and everyone (all my brothers and sisters under God) who happens to sell or buy a drug within so many yards of a school. Doesn’t matter if school is in session. doesn’t matter if any kids are aware this is happening. Doesn’t even matter if both people involved are doing so in a private residence and both believe that anyone giving or selling a drug to a child should get the death penalty.

Every new tax, fee, regulation, etc created since I was created. I’m sure there are tens of thousands. And there is no stopping or even slowing in sight and we all get to pay for the priveledge for all of these that encroach on our freedoms.

That’s off the top of my head.
 
Not only corruption, but violence, too. I can’t wait until you do. Please report your experiences. It is my guess you’ll be running back to the US after a few weeks.

-Chris
Hahahaha I have family through marriage who live in another country. It is very beautiful there and the people are very, very happy. Citizens have a lot more freedoms. They gather on the beach in the morning to do tai chi and other exercizes. They have parties day and night on the beaches without violence and the police do not bother them or chace them away. It is a very family oriented country. I wish I could move there now so I could raise my son there and not here.
 
Would it be a sin to have sex with a woman outside of marriage if there were no women?
Your retort doesnt’ address my comment about would it read “THE EXACT SAME WAY” if there were no state.
 
i believe the virtue of patriotism covers this

"liberties they are ours because there was some goodness, let it be just natural goodness, in some of the men who founded this country and gave it its ideals and its Constitution. We ought to thank God for that.
And since that time the government that our country was founded as is outright perverted, citizens are routinely LIED TO as to what type of contry we live under.

This country was founded as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, yet you will hear the president and all sorts of politicans referring to our country as a democray. In a constitutinal republic, the rights under the constitution can’t be messed with. In a democracy is’t mob rule.

It’s essentially 2 wolves and 1 sheep ‘voting’ on what’s for dinner.

If our country was operated the way it was operated when it was founed I would have little to no problem with it and likely be very proud to be a citizen of said contry. But it has been perverted, corrupted, and there is no end in sight while all of that continues.

For those of you who can not see that I feel sorry for you.

Why are people told this country is a democracy? And why are we told it’s our duty to spread democracy throughout the world? Can someone explain this to me in a way that leaves me feeling good about this perversion?
 
And since that time the government that our country was founded as is outright perverted, citizens are routinely LIED TO as to what type of contry we live under.

This country was founded as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, yet you will hear the president and all sorts of politicans referring to our country as a democray. In a constitutinal republic, the rights under the constitution can’t be messed with. In a democracy is’t mob rule.

It’s essentially 2 wolves and 1 sheep ‘voting’ on what’s for dinner.

If our country was operated the way it was operated when it was founed I would have little to no problem with it and likely be very proud to be a citizen of said contry. But it has been perverted, corrupted, and there is no end in sight while all of that continues.

For those of you who can not see that I feel sorry for you.

Why are people told this country is a democracy? And why are we told it’s our duty to spread democracy throughout the world? Can someone explain this to me in a way that leaves me feeling good about this perversion?
Yeh it is really sad that since many of the five non-negotionables are abandoned in the USA which so far has largely led to a degradation in some areas that I’ve heard of worse than Greek+Roman immorality. As a priest friend of mine said “democracy is not good; if it is misconstrued accarding to the principles that inspired the founding fathers like: st. Robert Bellarmine, Suarez, Aristotle, and Plato, etc… (rant) Then it can lead to an abondonment of these principles that are… (rant) the foundation for society… The most we can do is write and pray for(?) our elected officials to stand true to the foundational principles and ideas that have kept this country great many times in the past… (rant)”

Shalom
God bless you on you’re journey.
 
Try reading C.S. Lewis’ “The Four Loves.” He wrote a great section in it on patriotism.

Patriotism is a virtue, which is a mean between extremes – between “my country, right or wrong” and “my country, never right.” It is never blind to the problems a country faces, but bound to them; and so becomes a necessary part of action against them.

If a country has issues, its loyal citizens must fix them, as they are able. It is an act of love to do so. It is an act of service for one’s own good, the good of his neighbors, and for God’s glory. The Catholic Church sanctions war, rebellion, and assassination in certain cases because the interest of justice, which is born of love, necessitates those actions.

Real treachery always involves personal gain over the common good. A real traitor would do nothing to change his country when it goes down the wrong path, while a patriot may even fight against his country when he has sufficient proof of its wrongdoing.

As always, one needs sufficient reason for doing anything, even supporting his country. “Render to Caesar, those things which are Caesar’s, and to God those things which are God’s.”

God bless,
sandomenico
 
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