Do we have a duty to love our country?

[jimmy]

Your retort doesnt’ address my comment about would it read “THE EXACT SAME WAY” if there were no state.

I think it does. How can you even talk about what the CCC would say about the state if the state didn’t exist? Of course it would be different because there would be no state to speak of. You wouldn’t have the concept. But that is a fantasy world.

What would be your opinion of women if God never created women? Would it still be a sin to lust after them?

 

[Bill_7154]

I think it does. How can you even talk about what the CCC would say about the state if the state didn’t exist? Of course it would be different because there would be no state to speak of. You wouldn’t have the concept. But that is a fantasy world.

What would be your opinion of women if God never created women? Would it still be a sin to lust after them?

I guess what I meant to say is that the CCC says things about the way the state should behave and the way citizens should behave. I assume the state has the greater responsibility.

Yet it does not fufill what it is supposed to, this negates any contract between me and the state with respect to the CCC as far as I am concerned. Let them shape up and fufill their duties and then come talk to me about what you think mine are. Until then it doesn’t matter to me what the CCC has to say about the way citizens are supposed to behave because the state is not doing what it is supposed to do. It broke the contract (if you want to consider the writing of the CCC and the state and citizen’s responsibilities ‘a contract’).

I find it very interesting that people will quote the CCC in efforts to explain that as Catholics we are obligated to do this or that for the state, but they pay no mind to what the CCC says about the state’s obligations. I had to ask like 3 times before I could get anyone to post what the CCC says about how gov’t is supposed to behave but have read at least 1/2 dozen posts chastizing me or someone else because they/I am not behaving toward or thinking about the state the way the CCC says I/we are supposed to.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[sedonaman]

… the phrase: ‘My country right or wrong’ is abhorrent to me.
…

My country, right or wrong, is, after all, still my COUNTRY.

 

[Bill_7154]

My country, right or wrong, is, after all, still my COUNTRY.

It is your country. And it is my country, but I look at it as I have said not toward the gov’t but toward my fellow citizens. We the people make up the country. I don’t think the gov’t thinks that though. And since they hold all the power I see this as a problem. Maybe you see it differently, or see it the same way and don’t have a problem with that. That’s OK with me. I don’t want to force my beliefs on you. But I do enjoy discussing gov’t, the pro’s and con’s of gov’t, etc.

I am a good man. I am a moral man. I am a Catholic. It’s my understanding that men of considerable influence in american history have said that a gov’t should fear it’s people, not the other way around. I have also read many very influential men from history stating that it not matter who supposedly ‘runs’ the country (libs or conservatives), what matters is who controls the money.

Do you know who controls the money that is us currency? Do you think it’s the populace? Do you think that the fed reserve banks are gov’t banks and therefore the people’s banks? They are private banks that print money and lend it to ‘us’ with interest attached. And of course we will never be able to pay. This means they own us. I don’t like such things.

Discussions of this lib or that conservative policy doesn’t really interst me. I"m more interested in discussing how inflation, caused by the printing of money in a fiat currency, is the biggest tax we face yet no one on the TV is talking about this. It’s killing the poor and the working class and hurting more and more the middle class. So talk about who should pay what % for fed income tax is such a TINY issue compared to things like this to me, I think it’s a shame more do not share my concerns or my perspective when it comes to matters as important as the eventual collapse of the us economy. And not everyone will fall when it collapses. The bankers who control the money supply won’t suffer.

So do I love a country that does such things to it’s citizens? No. And I don’t care if I was born in such a country or have ever visited such a country. There are bankers who are pigs, getting filthy rich loaning us trillions of dollars with interest. Bankers who actually control the printing presses of money. Not a government official sworn to do what is best for the citizens, rich powerful, private bankers. I find this outrageous.

So I love my countrymen. But have no love for the us government…because it obviously has no love for me, my family, your family, or anyone’s family except for the families that are in the inner circle of super wealth and power. This is who control’s government. If a person were actually educated about the way government really works (and not what they pitch on TV) I would have to question the sanity of anyone who loved them.

And when I read your quote with my COUNTRY in bold it makes me think of a ships captain proudly proclaiming it’s MY SHIP as it sinks into the ocean and he is never heard from again. America is sinking, you realize this, don’t you?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[sedonaman]

It is your country. And it is my country, but I look at it as I have said not toward the gov’t but toward my fellow citizens. We the people make up the country. … etc.

I agree with much of what you have said here. You might be interested in “America’s Ruling Class” by Angelo M. Codevilla. spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the It is long but worthwhile.

Why do some Americans hate their country? I believe it is because of the extreme liberal ideology that indiscriminateness is a moral imperative. Because an act of discrimination is a reflection of personal bigotry, the only way to be moral is not to discriminate, not even between right and wrong, good and evil, better and worse, truth and lies.

Indiscriminateness is a moral imperative because its opposite is the evil of having discriminated. Indiscriminateness of thought does not lead to indiscriminateness of policy; it leads the extreme liberal to side invariably with evil over good, wrong over right, and the behaviors that lead to failures over those that lead to success. Why? Because if nothing is to be recognized as better or worse than anything else, then success is de facto unjust. There is no explanation for success if nothing is better than anything else, and the greater the success, the greater the injustice. Likewise, failure is proof of victimization, and the greater the failure, the greater the victimization. As a result, the extreme liberal must, invariably and inevitably, become an apologist for tyranny. He must also become an antagonist to liberty. If you extrapolate to all of those who are indiscriminate across the board besides culture, they must become antagonists to everything that is good, right, and successful. If we say that the U.S. has become the most successful nation in history, this needs to be explained. There are only two possibilities: our Judeo-Christian heritage is exceptional, or we cheated, and the magnitude of our success proves we are the most unjust people in the history of the world. At this point, the extreme liberal, the multiculturalist, has already taken one of those two possibilities off the table. He cannot believe that it is an exceptional culture because he wouldn’t be a multiculturalist if he could.

We have seen this pattern over an over. The idea that one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter has led to a resurgence of anti-Semitism; a successful person is not a testimony of the opportunities in America; it is an indictment of American greed. More recently, a terrorist attack is not a terrorist attack, it is “a spontaneous demonstration”. Thus, the belief that America is no better than any other country has led to hatred of America.

So there you have it as I see it.

You will notice that only “COUNTRY” was in bold, indicating where my emphasis was intended, meaning it is my home and not just some consumer product.

 

[Felixir]

Try reading C.S. Lewis’ “The Four Loves.” He wrote a great section in it on patriotism.

Patriotism is a virtue, which is a mean between extremes – between “my country, right or wrong” and “my country, never right.” It is never blind to the problems a country faces, but bound to them; and so becomes a necessary part of action against them.

If a country has issues, its loyal citizens must fix them, as they are able. It is an act of love to do so. It is an act of service for one’s own good, the good of his neighbors, and for God’s glory. The Catholic Church sanctions war, rebellion, and assassination in certain cases because the interest of justice, which is born of love, necessitates those actions.

Real treachery always involves personal gain over the common good. A real traitor would do nothing to change his country when it goes down the wrong path, while a patriot may even fight against his country when he has sufficient proof of its wrongdoing.

As always, one needs sufficient reason for doing anything, even supporting his country. “Render to Caesar, those things which are Caesar’s, and to God those things which are God’s.”

God bless,
sandomenico

Hi Sandomenico.

Thank you for your excellent reply - I cannot disagree with anything you’ve said. There is much to reflect on here, and I think perhaps I have been looking at things from a slightly skewed and unbalanced angle.

I shall go to the Four Loves and read the relevant section.

Thanks once again.

 

[Felixir]

I guess what I meant to say is that the CCC says things about the way the state should behave and the way citizens should behave. I assume the state has the greater responsibility.

Yet it does not fufill what it is supposed to, this negates any contract between me and the state with respect to the CCC as far as I am concerned. Let them shape up and fufill their duties and then come talk to me about what you think mine are. Until then it doesn’t matter to me what the CCC has to say about the way citizens are supposed to behave because the state is not doing what it is supposed to do. It broke the contract (if you want to consider the writing of the CCC and the state and citizen’s responsibilities ‘a contract’).

I find it very interesting that people will quote the CCC in efforts to explain that as Catholics we are obligated to do this or that for the state, but they pay no mind to what the CCC says about the state’s obligations. I had to ask like 3 times before I could get anyone to post what the CCC says about how gov’t is supposed to behave but have read at least 1/2 dozen posts chastizing me or someone else because they/I am not behaving toward or thinking about the state the way the CCC says I/we are supposed to.

God Bless,
Bill

I guess, Bill, that if something is our duty then whether or not another/the other party fulfils theirs is irrelevant - that just means that you have and they haven’t, and it doesn’t remove the obligation of your own duty. Take marriage for example. If my wife were to commit adultery, or even seek a civil divorce, that would not release me from my wedding vows, it would just simply mean that she had broken hers.

We have to love our neighbour - which all men are obligated to do - whether our neighbour loves us or not. We are not released from that obligation if our neighbour hates us. The CCC is a guide for living - our leaders ignore their obligation at their own peril, we should not endanger our souls because they hold their own so cheaply.

If the Church teaches that we do have that duty, then we do, and it’s as simple as that, even though, as you know, my personal opinion is very similar to your own.

 

[Bill_7154]

I guess, Bill, that if something is our duty then whether or not another/the other party fulfils theirs is irrelevant - that just means that you have and they haven’t, and it doesn’t remove the obligation of your own duty. Take marriage for example. If my wife were to commit adultery, or even seek a civil divorce, that would not release me from my wedding vows, it would just simply mean that she had broken hers.

We have to love our neighbour - which all men are obligated to do - whether our neighbour loves us or not. We are not released from that obligation if our neighbour hates us. The CCC is a guide for living - our leaders ignore their obligation at their own peril, we should not endanger our souls because they hold their own so cheaply.

If the Church teaches that we do have that duty, then we do, and it’s as simple as that, even though, as you know, my personal opinion is very similar to your own.

Hi Felixir,

You make a very good argument and I can not disagree with it. I concede that your argument is correct, that I am obligated to do what I am obligated to do as far as what I am supposed to do as a Catholic regardless of how anyone else behaves.

So in this area I fall short of being a good Catholic to the extent that following this part of the CCC is a measure of whether or not one is a good Catholic. I know how to admit when I am in the wrong. So your argument proves I am in the wrong.

But I still have major issues with the way government operates and I do my best to love my ‘neighbor’ as myself, this includes all of my neighbors inside the borders of the USA. But I fall far short of loving my neighbor as myself if those neighbors are people who hold positions of significant power in the US gov’t. I believe that politicians are liers and con artists and are self-serving and deceitful. Given that they hold so much power, and given the beliefs I have about them, I do not love them. I am not living up to the expectations of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in this area. I feel frustrated, taken advantage of, and resentful that my brothers and sisters as God’s children in the USA whom I love are being taken advantage of by a very tiny minority of people who live in the USA and hold positions of great power over them. I believe they lie to us to expand their power and wealth. Yet I am still supposed to love them, I recognize that. And I do not. Consider this one of my sins. I suppose it is an ongoing sin that I have/commit in my heart and mind. I do not want people to be exploited or taken advantage of and believe that these people do those things. And in all honesty changing this viewpoint is not even close to the top of my list of priorities in life when it comes to making changes in myself to be a better Catholic, to better follow the teachings of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I don’t know what else to say, this is where I am at. At least I know it and can admit it. What can I say? I’m not perfect. It angers me to see people taken advantage of by those in power. I suppose there is also a strong connection between the fact that I was taken advantage of in terrible ways by ‘people in positions of power’ over me when I was a child, my parents and grandmother who raised me and were very abusive and neglectful and the fact that I have such strong feelings about me and others being taken advantage of by people in positions of significant power in government. I have forgiven my parents and grandmother (who has since passed away) but I have not forgiven those in positions of signficant power in government.

So whether or not I have a duty to love my country, without a doubt I love my country (as defined meaning the citizens of the USA). But do not love the individuals who hold significant power in government. And if I have a duty to love them I am not living up to that duty. I have stated my reasons (in general) for this but also recognize that Jesus Christ wants me to love everyone and I do not love those individuals. Consider me guilty in that regard.

Peace and God Bless,
Bill

 

[Felixir]

Hi Felixir,

You make a very good argument and I can not disagree with it. I concede that your argument is correct, that I am obligated to do what I am obligated to do as far as what I am supposed to do as a Catholic regardless of how anyone else behaves.

So in this area I fall short of being a good Catholic to the extent that following this part of the CCC is a measure of whether or not one is a good Catholic. I know how to admit when I am in the wrong. So your argument proves I am in the wrong.

But I still have major issues with the way government operates and I do my best to love my ‘neighbor’ as myself, this includes all of my neighbors inside the borders of the USA. But I fall far short of loving my neighbor as myself if those neighbors are people who hold positions of significant power in the US gov’t. I believe that politicians are liers and con artists and are self-serving and deceitful. Given that they hold so much power, and given the beliefs I have about them, I do not love them. I am not living up to the expectations of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in this area. I feel frustrated, taken advantage of, and resentful that my brothers and sisters as God’s children in the USA whom I love are being taken advantage of by a very tiny minority of people who live in the USA and hold positions of great power over them. I believe they lie to us to expand their power and wealth. Yet I am still supposed to love them, I recognize that. And I do not. Consider this one of my sins. I suppose it is an ongoing sin that I have/commit in my heart and mind. I do not want people to be exploited or taken advantage of and believe that these people do those things. And in all honesty changing this viewpoint is not even close to the top of my list of priorities in life when it comes to making changes in myself to be a better Catholic, to better follow the teachings of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I don’t know what else to say, this is where I am at. At least I know it and can admit it. What can I say? I’m not perfect. It angers me to see people taken advantage of by those in power. I suppose there is also a strong connection between the fact that I was taken advantage of in terrible ways by ‘people in positions of power’ over me when I was a child, my parents and grandmother who raised me and were very abusive and neglectful and the fact that I have such strong feelings about me and others being taken advantage of by people in positions of significant power in government. I have forgiven my parents and grandmother (who has since passed away) but I have not forgiven those in positions of signficant power in government.

So whether or not I have a duty to love my country, without a doubt I love my country (as defined meaning the citizens of the USA). But do not love the individuals who hold significant power in government. And if I have a duty to love them I am not living up to that duty. I have stated my reasons (in general) for this but also recognize that Jesus Christ wants me to love everyone and I do not love those individuals. Consider me guilty in that regard.

Peace and God Bless,
Bill

We’re all imperfect, Bill - I lack love for my brothers and sisters too, and have exactly the same shortcomings. Your reply demonstrates your humility and awareness, though, and those are two things you need in order to get things right. God bless you, Bill. Pray for me, a sinner.

 

[Jonatello]

you have a duty to love all people and serve 1 master.

you have a duty to be as objective as possible when judging your country against other countries

you have a duty to NEVER place the lives of foreigners on a lower moral rung.

you have a duty to love the people of your country just as you love people everywhere else.

you have a duty to serve GOD and not add other masters to that list.

your duty is to people not citizens, God not flags.

it is beautiful to love your country for good reasons (the climate, the landscape, the customs, the food, the laws, the opportunities, the architecture), but you should never decide it is most worthy of God’s love.

 

[zenith15]

you have a duty to love all people and serve 1 master.

you have a duty to be as objective as possible when judging your country against other countries

you have a duty to NEVER place the lives of foreigners on a lower moral rung.

you have a duty to love the people of your country just as you love people everywhere else.

you have a duty to serve GOD and not add other masters to that list.

your duty is to people not citizens, God not flags.

it is beautiful to love your country for good reasons (the climate, the landscape, the customs, the food, the laws, the opportunities, the architecture), but you should never decide it is most worthy of God’s love.

 

[Sarcelle]

I guess this might sum up pretty well why I have distain for the usa. I perceive it’s pitched as a sort of religion.

What part of the USA do you disdain?

As a veteran, I think we should strive do good for the country and will its good. People sometimes mistake patriotism for jingoism.

I like John F. Kennedy’s “Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.”

 

[Bill_7154]

If a country has issues, its loyal citizens must fix them, as they are able. It is an act of love to do so. It is an act of service for one’s own good, the good of his neighbors, and for God’s glory. The Catholic Church sanctions war, rebellion, and assassination in certain cases because the interest of justice, which is born of love, necessitates those actions.

Real treachery always involves personal gain over the common good. A real traitor would do nothing to change his country when it goes down the wrong path, while a patriot may even fight against his country when he has sufficient proof of its wrongdoing.

God bless,
sandomenico

sandomenico,

This kind of sums up why I am angry with the us gov’t. I am not able to ‘fix’ any of it’s problems, nor are IMO most all citizens. Voting for person x or person y has not solved our problems IMO. Only very wealthy individuals have the means to bring about change through gov’t IMO (in cooperation with elected officials). And most wealthy people spending money to bring about change are doing so to bring about change that will be financially benefitial to them and/or their friends IMO. They do not work for the common good, but personal gain IMO and I don’t believe citizens ‘voting’ will change this long practiced and established influence on gov’t.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[sandomenico]

Bill 1754,

Lord knows, I feel as you do. Just thinking about the long fight we have ahead makes me want to give up before I’ve started. We have many enemies in this country, but we have just as many, if not more, friends–good and decent people who want to see an end to this corruption.

But where is the end? Well, where was the beginning? The problem is in the roots: in the people themselves. If the people do not organize, do not talk among themselves, do not engage in their duty, then the powers that be will take control because they will have no opposition. And they have.

Government is merely an extension of the two Great Commandments: Love God and love your neighbor. These are the foundation of all human relations. It is the duty of government to guide citizens toward their true end. And WE are the government of these United States! We are the John Doe’s who will have to face the music when the time comes. We must take a stand, now before it is too late.

Love of God and neighbor often compels us to do so much more than vote in the public sphere. We have been given the tools to overcome the failure of our votes: the most important one (and the most neglected) being the Militia of the Several States–the “well-regulated Militia” of the Second Amendment, “the body of the people trained to arms,” and the only check and balance to the Federal Government itself. This is our last chance.

Start at the bottom; start small. An enemy persuaded is an ally won.

God love you,
sandomenico