Do we have to be rude?

[JReducation]

I just came another thread where people are arguing about the SSPX, AGAIN! On another thread, they were arguing about climate change and the Pope’s support for certain positions, etc. But these are not the points to whihc I want to speak.

The point is that in both threads, I made my position. Several people tried to persuade me to see their point of view. I stated that in my religious tradtion, the Franciscan family, those who are good Franciscans live by the example and teachings of St. Francis. We never hold a public opnion, make comments, or give suggestions that are in conflict with people who have greater dignity than we have . Granted, we all have the dignity of the children of God; but we do not all have the dignity of authority. That’s a separate gift.

My point was that the silence of traditional monks and friars on what popes, bishops and superiors say is a form of charity. It is the mark of obedience out of pure love. It requires discipline. Sometimes you want to state your opinion and have positions; but true obedience imitates the actions of Christ. Christ never murmured in accepting the will of the Father. Scripture reminds us that when he was found in the temple at age 12, he went back to Nazareth and was obedient to Joseph and Mary. I can’t imagine Joseph and Mary having more wisdom and holiness than Jesus, despite who they were.

As I made my point, there were some who continued to push me for a position. I simply repeated the Church’s position. It is not for me to say that such a position right or wrong. It has nothing to do wiht self-respect, dignity, intelligence, etc. It has everything to do with fidelity to what I promised. I vowed to be obedient until death. I promised to live the Gospel exactly as Francis lived it, until death. I promised to submit to the Church, when she is right and when she is wrong, until death. Unless the Church asks me to sin, I cannot disobery, disagree, or hold any positions that may be in conflict with those above me and who are better than I am.

That being said, someone immediately blasted me by accusing me of “red herring.” This brings us to the point. Often, people who are defensive will accuse others of “red herring”. This kind of accusation has two weaknesses to it.

1. It does not prove your case. Therefore it only creates antagonism between you and the other person. Because you’re not making a point. You accusing.
2. This position is very common when people are defensive, but cannot come up with an argument to refute your point. Therefore, they go ont he attack. This is a violation of charity.

This brings me back to the original question of this thread. Why do we have to be rude? If we don’t have an answer in an argument, it’s not the end of the world. There are so many things that are so important and winning a debate is not one of them. Maybe that’s why friars and monks are so precise about obedience and silence. Life is not about winning debates. It’s about being faithful to our covenant with God.

When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman he told her the sins that she had committed, offered her life giving water and told her to sin no more. He did not enage in a debate with her. When the Jewish leaders go under his skin, he made is point and moved on. Once he even called them hypocrites and whitened sepulchres. But he did not sit around with them in a name-calling session like a bundh of elementary school kids. He said what they needed to hear, not a single word more.

In closing, I found it very interesting that some people were taking the time to get me to express my opinion on climate change and on the SSPX. They did not want to hear me repeat what the Church has said… This is the kind of behavior that tells you that someone is trying to railroad you into stating your own position, so that they can crucify you. How rude is that?

These discussions should be to help us discern how to lie the Gospel, not to help us build up our egos. Rudness is a faled attempt at self-respect.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I was reading a thread on the Concierge Thread and there was a very interesting question. Someone asked if religious and priests on the forums were to be treated with special deference or is it enough to treat them with the same respect as one shows to everyone else. It made me think of this thread.

Let’s start with a simple fact. If you treat everyone with respect and courtesy, priests and religious are covered. The fact that we should have to ask this question is disconcerting. It begs the question; do we have a double standard in our behavior toward people? All people are sons and daughters of the Father. Therefore, all people must be treated with great respect and kindness.

When the second person of the Blessed Trinity became incarnate the Father vested him with human nature, thus elevating humanity to the status of sonship with his own Son. Therefore, every human being, regardless of his merits, was adopted by the Father. If we truly believe in the mystery of the incarnation, then there is no doubt in our mind that every human being is Christ’s brother and sister.

It is true that we reserve certain courtesies for people in specific roles, such as clergy, religious, presidents, monarchs, rabbis, our parents, teachers and so forth. But there is a difference between courtesy and respect. Respect, kindness, gentleness, and good manners are expressions of charity.

I sometimes wonder if what people are looking for is a free pass to bypass these expressions of charity. But this is unacceptable in Christian conduct. We have to look at the saints to see how we must behave toward those with whom we disagree or who are in error or sin. I can’t think of a saint who was more forthright than Teresa of Avila. She was a woman who called a spade a spade. She was known to have engaged in debates with the members of the Inquisition. What is also very notable about those debates was her charity. She spoke the truth to them. But when you read her writings and her biographies, words such as “Your Grace, Father, Brother, Friar, Sir, thank you, please, Your Reverence” and so forth were never absent from her speech.

She made no accusations and we know that she was being setup. In fact, when asked certain questions Teresa responded, “Your Grace knows who reported this to you; therefore, Your Grace must judge for himself if the reporter is worthy of belief.” She never said, “So and So is a liar.” One of Teresa’s more popular lines is, “God protect us from sour saints.” She was referring to those fragile souls who seem to find the most depressing expression of holiness. I sometimes wonder if sometimes we don’t confuse depressive and puritanical behavior with holiness.

True holiness is always charitable and cheerful. The saint acknowledges the wisdom of God in raising humanity to adopted sonship and treats all men with the deference that they deserve, not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Middleman]

Thanks a lot for posting this, it’s a breath of fresh air here and needed to be said. I’ve felt that this is a rude place where people test your patience with snippy retorts, which is a big turn off to me.

I came to this forum at a time when I was feeling exasperated and fed up with my local parish. I’ve spent many years faithfully attending Mass there. It is an unfriendly and dead place, in fact. There are constant controversies there, and not much fellowship. The liberals are at odds with the conservatives, the priest is at odds with a new person each month.

I came here about a year ago and have found it less than encouraging. At the same time our teenagers have also become exasperated with the church here, which offers no education or encouragement for our young people. That was the final straw for us and we’ve started attending a community church.

I still will be checking in here, there are many subjects, but the tone of many posts rubs me poorly. I get condescending remarks directed toward me frequently. I see that between others as well.

There is a problem within the Church. I’m glad you brought this up.

 

[JReducation]

It is most unfortunate that the very thing that brought us our salvation, perfect charity, is often so lacking in our dealings with other people. I believe that man’s search for the truth is often diverted by his own passionate desire to be right, rather than by a passioante desire to love. You cannot convert by argument, by insult, injury or even by logic. You convert by evidence.

If we read the scriptures, especially John’s Gospel, what was it that the Jews kept asking for? They kept asking for “signs”. They wanted evidence. Because when all things are said and rehashed, it is only the evidence of God’s providential love for man that will turn man toward God.

Theology, Sacred Scripture, Liturgy, philosophy and Church History all have their place in defining and explaining what we believe. But these are not tools of the evangelist. These are the tools of the teacher. Before one can teach, one must first recruit students. Why and how to people come to school, especially to the School of Love, which is the Church?

People come to school because they are convinced that there is something of value there to be learned. They have seen the evidence. What is the evidence that a student sees? What is the evidence that convinces a student that he must go to school? He sees the outcome. He looks and sees the physician, the teacher, the lawyer, the engineer, the artist, the writer and so forth. He sees what emerges from the school. He sees the signs.

When he sees what emerges from the school, his heart speaks to him. He says to himself, I want to be a teacher, doctor, lawyer and so forth. Therefore I too must enter school.

The same must happen with the School of Love. Those who do not know our faith or who know something about it, but are not well formed in it, must return to the School of Love. But if they are to be moved to return or to enter for the first time, like the student of the secular disciplines, the student of faith must also see the product of the School of Love. The man and woman of great love is the sign that the non Catholic or poorly formed Catholic needs to see. Because if all he sees is harsh, cold, threatening, condescending, judgmental, arrogant and sour, without joy and hope, why would he want to enter that school?

The Church is the great School of Love. If we want to bring others into that school, we must be signs of what the Church stands for. Once you have won over the heart, the mind can easily be shaped. This is what made saints like Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, Vincent de Paul, John Vianney, Padre Pio and Solanus Casey so attractive. They won over the hearts of men first. They were among the best examples of what one achieves in the great School of Love.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Those who allow their fear to guide them run the risk of becoming victims of their fears. Whereas those who allow reason to guide them will eventually practice such perfect charity as to confound their enemies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[lufty]

*When the second person of the Blessed Trinity became incarnate the Father vested him with human nature, thus elevating humanity to the status of sonship with his own Son. Therefore, every human being, regardless of his merits, was adopted by the Father. If we truly believe in the mystery of the incarnation, then there is no doubt in our mind that every human being is Christ’s brother and sister. *

Br. JR, OSF,

Again, thank you for your thoughts in this thread. Your examples are worthy, articulate, and again, have showed me the Christian nature that I feel is in each of us. Thank you very much.

I hope that this thread continues, and those of us that often find difficulty in the social forum here, are able to express our thoughts in a loving environment. I know I may have made some statements on this forum that perhaps have been upsetting to some, and I will vow to be a more open, caring, and loving person in this exploration into Christ and the Church.

Example is powerful thing. I am humbled.

Peace,

Lufty

 

[pnewton]

Let’s start with a simple fact. If you treat everyone with respect and courtesy, priests and religious are covered. The fact that we should have to ask this question is disconcerting. It begs the question; do we have a double standard in our behavior toward people? All people are sons and daughters of the Father. Therefore, all people must be treated with great respect and kindness.

I remember especially in the earlier days here, that there was a larger emphasis on avoiding ad hominem arguements. After all, isn’t what we say of greater importance than who we are. Our reputation should be predicated on our ability to interact with charity and clarity, not our credentials. Our interacts must be predicated on the principles expounded in the gospel, not our more base human nature.

I have noted most of the clergy and religious here have been wonderful and a joy to interact with.

 

[JReducation]

I remember especially in the earlier days here, that there was a larger emphasis on avoiding ad hominem arguements. After all, isn’t what we say of greater importance than who we are. Our reputation should be predicated on our ability to interact with charity and clarity, not our credentials. Our interacts must be predicated on the principles expounded in the gospel, not our more base human nature.

I have noted most of the clergy and religious here have been wonderful and a joy to interact with.

I think the problems that some lay people have with religious and clergy has something to do with their own distrust. This is very sad. When we generalize our feelings we often hurt ourselves and others. I believe the purpose of the question that was asked about showing respect for clergy and religious was almost like asking for permission to be disrespectful.

From a purely behavioral or psychological point of view, this reveals an adolescent attitude. The adolescent who is angry at his parents and teachers looks for opportunities to defy and oppose every adult that crosses his path. Under normal conditions we outgrow that mode of acting. We realize that we cannot live life in conflict and that we cannot generalize our anger to everyone who belongs to a specific group of people. This is part of the maturation process.

We often lack this kind of maturity in our spiritual life. God does offer this kind of grace, but we have to cooperate with it. If we do not cooperate with the gift of adulthood, we sentence ourselves to live as perpetual adolescents with all of the confusion, anger, insecurity and never finding our comfort zone in the community. One of the attractions of the saints is their maturity. Even children saints were mature people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF