Do we have to understand the Latin we are praying?

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Nice!

And obviously praying in Latin that makes you stumble on every word is a lot LESS worthwhile than an English prayer you can actually pray, but if you can, if you already have, it is super worth it.

Plus, we all know the words to the Our father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, so praying them in Latin is easy.

Rosary is very useful in Latin. 👍
True! I was saying a few decades today in Latin, and it felt right.

“Unchangeable dogmas require an unchangeable language. The Catholic Church cannot change, because it is the Church of God, Who is unchangeable; consequently the language of the Church must also be unchangeable.”
  • Fr. Mueller
I am not against the use of the vernacular, but there are certainly some weighty reasons for praying in Latin.

Packs. Sorry, I mean Pax… Getting there.
 
I think knowing what we are praying is important for it to be beneficial, and not empty recitation. That said, with short phrase that we know the translation of, we *do *know the meaning. So, if you say, “Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum,” and you consciously know that it means, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you,” then I think that is fine. You are praying with understanding, though you may not understand the grammar in-depth. I would avoid anything that you can’t at least translate phrase-by-phrase though. For example, I wouldn’t suggest praying the Apostle’s Creed in Latin until you get to the point that I can give you a phrase from it in isolation, and you can tell me what the English equivalent is.

The great thing about Indo-European languages is that the structure is very similar. So if you are attentive, you can go from understanding phrases to understanding words, since it is often a one-to-one relationship. Then, if you are really into it, you can try to understand the grammar a little, so you can understand the phrase purely in Latin thought, without having to rely on knowledge of the English equivalent.

Anyway, like I said, just make sure you know what the phrase means. If you do, then it will be no different than when we in English understand on use stock French phrases (réspondez s’il vous plaît, coup d’etat, crème de la crème, etc.). Certainly, whether you pray in English or Latin ultimately makes no difference to you spiritually. God doesn’t care. However, I can understand that it is nice to be able to say some prayers the way your “spiritual ancestors” did. It creates a stronger sense of continuity. Certainly, when I say my morning or evening prayers, I generally say a few of the very short prayers in Slavonic for this very reason, so I can understand why the Latin appeals to you. 🙂
 
True! I was saying a few decades today in Latin, and it felt right.

“Unchangeable dogmas require an unchangeable language. The Catholic Church cannot change, because it is the Church of God, Who is unchangeable; consequently the language of the Church must also be unchangeable.”
  • Fr. Mueller
I am not against the use of the vernacular, but there are certainly some weighty reasons for praying in Latin.

Packs. Sorry, I mean Pax… Getting there.
😃

Great quote! I totally agree.

Yes, it feels so…I dunno…it goes from “Praying 53 hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers” to “Praying the Holy Rosary”, if you know what I mean?
 
As it so happens, last week I memorized the Pater Noster. I was pleasantly surprised that the task was easier than I was expecting–largely because of my knowledge of Spanish. There is enough similarity to help my memorization and my understanding noticeably, especially towards the end of the prayer.

I learned Spanish primarily for more “practical” benefits. Now I’ll add my voice to those who will mention that knowledge of Romance languages can be useful in more ways than one.
I memorized the Nicene Creed in Latin in just over a week’s time. Just listened to Credo III over and over again. I consider myself to be of average intelligence, with a limited background in Spanish. I am convinced that learning the Latin parts of the Mass, especially the ordinary parts, is just a matter of dedicating some time to memorize them. People would surprise themselves.
 
Yes, you have to understand your prayers. Otherwise your prayer are rote and void of meaning.
 
Yes, you have to understand your prayers. Otherwise your prayer are rote and void of meaning.
I’ll take the prayers whether you understand them or not. I just hope they’re sincere.

In any case, God understands, and that’s what’s important.
 
What is the benefit of praying in a language one doesn’t understand? Is it because Latin as the official language of the Church is thought to be “more holy?”
Don’t you think that it would be sort of intellectually fruitless to pray something without knowing what it is you are saying?
Does anyone deride our Jewish brothers and sisters for using Hebrew in their prayers even if they couldn’t conjugate a simply sentence in Hebrew? Does everyone here refuse to say Amen, Alleluia, or *Kyrie *because they don’t speak the language which those words are from?

My point is that you may not know that “Amen” means something like “I agree”, but the intent is there none the less. The same can be said for praying in Latin even if you don’t understand it 100%. Most people that talk about praying in Latin know the English (or other vernacular) translation so it isn’t like they don’t understand the intent. Heck language itself is merely a form of symbology so whether you use Lord or *Dominus *as you are still referring to the same thing. Painting and sculpture can also be prayer, so I believe the intent behind the prayer is simply expressed in a symbolic language that a person chooses to use.

For me it has nothing to do with being more holy, but rather something set apart from my daily life. Also since I tend to sing prayers, Latin is a much more fluid language to sing than English. Even if I can’t tell you how to conjugate plenus, I still know what it means in regard to Ave Maria, gratia plena.
 
What is the benefit of praying in a language one doesn’t understand? Is it because Latin as the official language of the Church is thought to be “more holy?”
Because it is inherently beautiful and yes because it is the language is the Church and because it makes a person slow down a little bit and meditate upon the meaning and the sound of the prayers. As far as not understanding it, once you pray it a few times in Latin, you start to pick up the meaning. I am an etymology nerd and I love learning Latin for devotional or Mass purposes. 😃
 
One thing you can do is print out the Angelus in Latin and English side-by-side. Before you recite each line, look at the English, then say the Latin (or in the reverse order). After doing this so many times, you will recognize the Latin phrases without having to consult the English. Note that Church Latin is typically pronounced a little different than Classical (Italian-sounding vowels and consonants).
I thought the Church or at least the Vatican’s rules to pronouncing Latin was to pronounce it as if it were modern Italian (such that, to name one example, the “c” actually sounds like a ‘ch’ as in ‘cinema’ = “chinema.” If this is so wouldn’t that make Church Latin more Italian-sounding?
 
I’ll take the prayers whether you understand them or not. I just hope they’re sincere.

In any case, God understands, and that’s what’s important.
That’s fine… I agree that prayers need to be sincere. My question is how could you possibility be sincere if you don’t know what you’re praying for? I might be missing the question… Are you making a distinction between the intention and the words of the prayer? If so, that makes some sense… ,but I think that in order for prayers to be coherent, we need to know what we’re saying. The words themselves are meaningless…it’s not a formula.
 
,but I think that in order for prayers to be coherent, we need to know what we’re saying. The words themselves are meaningless…it’s not a formula.
I think you’re being overly analytical here. How many 5-yr olds who just finished memorizing the Our Father have the proper level of understanding of what “hallowed” or “trespasses” mean, for example? I think one poster already mentioned it, that it’s the Our Father we pray, not phrases or cadences we may someday or may never fully understand. A five-year old’s prayers can be just as efficacious as someone with a masters in theology, I would think. My desire to pray in Latin is because it helps me focus on the prayer more and that we may recite it together wherever we are on the planet. St. John Paul II’s lead in praying the Rosary in Latin was precisely to do that.
 
I thought the Church or at least the Vatican’s rules to pronouncing Latin was to pronounce it as if it were modern Italian (such that, to name one example, the “c” actually sounds like a ‘ch’ as in ‘cinema’ = “chinema.” If this is so wouldn’t that make Church Latin more Italian-sounding?
In theory, yes. Although I happen to hear Polish priests saying “PRIN SIP EE OH” instead of “PRIN CHEEP EE OH” (for principio) or “KVA RAY” instead of “KWA RAY” (for quare). Or even using the hard g, as in Virgina. But I don’t see this as a serious deviation from the spoken Church Latin.
 
As I said before, you can understand phrases without knowing the meaning of every word or the grammar. There is a difference between understanding, and being able to think in a language. Certainly, the latter is better. but not necessary to be able to say something with meaning. Like I said, how many people know the meaning of individual words in “coup d’etat” or “réspondez s’il vous plaît (RSVP)”? I am willing to bet it is not many people, yet don’t we all understand the meaning and use the phrases with meaning?
 
I think you’re being overly analytical here. How many 5-yr olds who just finished memorizing the Our Father have the proper level of understanding of what “hallowed” or “trespasses” mean, for example? I think one poster already mentioned it, that it’s the Our Father we pray, not phrases or cadences we may someday or may never fully understand. A five-year old’s prayers can be just as efficacious as someone with a masters in theology, I would think. My desire to pray in Latin is because it helps me focus on the prayer more and that we may recite it together wherever we are on the planet. St. John Paul II’s lead in praying the Rosary in Latin was precisely to do that.
Your 5 year old example is well taken… and is a good qualifier. I wouldn’t expect a 5 year old to understand as the age of reason is generally believed to be 7 or 8 years old.

For adults, I would still contend that praying without an understanding of the prayers you’re praying would be silly.
 
Your 5 year old example is well taken… and is a good qualifier. I wouldn’t expect a 5 year old to understand as the age of reason is generally believed to be 7 or 8 years old.

For adults, I would still contend that praying without an understanding of the prayers you’re praying would be silly.
Adults, well Catholic adults, KNOW the Our Father. So they dont understand how to conjugate “noster” but they know it means OUR in the Our Father. I couldnt read through Caesar’s Gallic Wars, but I KNOW what a Latin Rosary means because I have memorized in English all the prayers of it.
 
As I said before, you can understand phrases without knowing the meaning of every word or the grammar. There is a difference between understanding, and being able to think in a language. Certainly, the latter is better. but not necessary to be able to say something with meaning. Like I said, how many people know the meaning of individual words in “coup d’etat” or “réspondez s’il vous plaît (RSVP)”? I am willing to bet it is not many people, yet don’t we all understand the meaning and use the phrases with meaning?
Even when I look it up in the dictionary, I never can understand*** vis a vis*** and I don’t know why anybody uses it? Isn’t there an English way to express it?

The other day I watched a program on airline disasters and the part that failed on the plane was something, that phonetically, sounds like “peetow” tube. It’s actually spelled Pitot. I watched an entire program about how a bug which made its nest in the Pitot tube brought down the plane with 129 passengers (none survived).

there’s a good book by Fr. David Vincent Meconi SJ called The One Christ which is expensive to begin with (I bet he requires it in the theology classes he teaches at St. Louis University) but you have to know 4 or 5 languages, because he just switches into German, French, and a couple other languages. If you suffer through most of the book, he switches to all-English in the final summary chapter, so it’s not a total waste, but it’s pretty hard slugging most of the way. When he appeared on EWTN to push his book, he didn’t hint that it was so hard to read, in any way. since he’s writing about St. Augustine, he’s quoting him in Latin, more than a couple times.

Everybody loves St. Theres of Lisieux. But I hate “Lisieux.” I don’t think she was from Lisieux, but I think she went into a convent there, if I’m not mistaken. If I had been in charge of anything in Europe in WWII, I would have lost the war, because I never learned to speak French.

My parish changed its name from St. Stanislaus parish to Our Lady of Czestochowa. In a meeting, a women referred to our parish as Our Lady of Czechoslovakia. Our pastor told us to make out our donation checks to OLC parish – Thank God.

I read a lot of Jewish commentaries on scripture, and some of them go deeply into the underlying Hebrew and Aramaic. I was reading a translation of some of (Jewish) Philo of Alexandria’s commentaries and he used the Greek Septuagint exclusively, so those commentaries frequently cite the underlying Greek word to clarify what he is talking about.

When I was a kid, the Daily Missal had the English on the right-hand page, and the Latin on the left-hand page. So, I could see where a lot of the words came from, except when it came to words like “quodquem.” In Latin, I seem to recall that the subject of the sentence is sometimes assumed, so it is sometimes hard to deal with that.

On the evening news, Nicaragua was in the news for years, and some of the spanish-speaking broadcasters would give us nothing less than the exact Spanish pronunciation, which was something like NEE CAR AGUA and they “roll” the R. “rrrr” – well, that’s the way to pronounce it.

Most native born US Citizens can only speak one language, we’re pathetic. In europe, the kids pick up 4 or 5 languages.

I have a learned aversion to non-english languages, because my mother spoke Polish, just so that I wouldn’t understand her, or the only things she would try to teach me were swear-words. One of them, literally translated, she said, meant “dog’s blood.” I’m not sure what context I would use that in.
 
In his recent book, The Future of the Church under Pope Francis, is complaining about a lot of things – bad decisions in the Church over the years.

He thinks switching to Latin was the Church’s biggest mistake in its history, pointing out that at Pentecost, people heard the gospel in their own native tongue. I think he has a point.

He disparages people who insist that praying in Latin makes them feel more holy. He criticizes them as elitist snobs or something like that. He was in the seminary, and maybe that’s how he got this burr under his saddle about using Latin.

Well, he pointed out that during Vatican II, the bishops were supposed to use Latin. Some American bishops wanted simultaneous translations like they have at the United Nations, because they didn’t understand Latin, and couldn’t really participate. One cardinal, I think it was Cardinal Cushing, just packed up and left Rome and didn’t return, for that reason. He was hard to understand in English, at that.

Most of the documents in the Vatican Library are in Latin, but if you don’t work or study there, what is the point of learning Latin? One person has said that the best Bible commentaries are there, locked up in Latin.

Part of the reason for the schism with the Orthodox Church was really due, among other things, to the problem of the Greek bishops and the Latin bishops not understanding each other – for centuries.
 
He thinks switching to Latin was the Church’s biggest mistake in its history,
If it had been, the mistake would have been perpetuated by a whole ton of Popes.

So what would have been the alternative? 30,000 denominations have already been created since the liturgy went vernacular via the Reformation.
Part of the reason for the schism with the Orthodox Church was really due, among other things, to the problem of the Greek bishops and the Latin bishops not understanding each other – for centuries.
Fair point. And that’s just two languages. What happens when you’re trying to use 7,000 languages to convert to Catholicism? And when your language becomes extinct or morphed, which most do, do you lose the faith?

I’m afraid Veterum Sapientia was not a mistake. It was exactly what it was called, the Wisdom of the Ancient Church.
 
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