Do we have to vote?

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Some day you may not be able to vote as you like. In 2008 New Black Panthers stood outside a poling place with billy clubs discouraging certain voters. Clear video exists but the attornry general never did anything about it. Watch out future world.
 
The two parties are not morally equivalent. One advocates and in fact, legislates for access to abortion, fetal stem cell research, human cloning, homosexual marriage and euthanasia, all of which are intrinsically evil. The other party is not morally “fatal” as you term it.

What is in my control? If I vote, I have played some part in the system that I live within. If I do not vote, I have no right to complain in any way. In fact, I am stupid not to participate in such a magnificent system of government, with its 3 branches and its democratic representation. It is my DUTY to participate, whether I get exactly what I want, or not.

On this Memorial Day, remember that many have DIED to keep that right available for you.
Not ascribing to me any motivations to persuade forum members to any political action, and taking the current state of political affairs out of the picture, do you disagree with my post in principle? (BTW, I’m with you 100% about the current state of affairs.)
 
If the two major political parties, one of whom is assured to win, only offers us packages that contain morally fatal alternatives on a grand scale, does Catholic duty require us to vote for our perception of the lesser of two evils?

This is a question that is in line with the question of whether to obey your parents in all things. So if your parents give you the choice of two commands, both of which are seriously intrinsically evil, do you honor your parents by obeying one of the two commands, or do you honor your parents by disobeying your parents to train them that their authority does not extend to evil works.

If the majority of Catholics voted their conscience exclusively for the best candidate, or not voting at all, are you not training the two major parties that to get our block of voters you must not give us a morally fatal alternative?

If a consumer buys junk with planned obsolescence because its “cheap”, doesn’t he end up buying more junk at greater overall price, training manufacturers to only produce junk for sale for increased profit?
That’s not how I see it. I see it more like - your parents say ‘we are going to do either abc or xyz. There is no third option, we are going to do one or other. You can, if you like, choose for us whether we do abc or do xyz, but whether you help us choose or not, either abc or xyz are going to happen.’

With abc and xyz being two different sets of morally repugnant actions. So, knowing that they are going to to either abc or xyz and that you can influence their decision, surely you should look at which of abc or xyz is the least morally repugnant and support that least-worst choice, in order to ensure that the least possible amount of harm is done?

I can’t help but think of St Maximilian Kolbe here. He was stuck in a Nazi concentration camp, a place of extreme evil. And faced with a choice where either he would be killed, a celibate priest, or a fellow prisoner would be killed, who had a family and young children depending on him.

Both absolutely horrific outcomes. Many people in such a situation would throw up their hands and say ‘there is no valid choice here - both are extremely evil’. And so do nothing. Not St Maximilian. He in good conscience did what he could to ensure that the lesser evil was done, and volunteered to give his own life in place of that of his fellow prisoner. And we revere him as a martyr for that today.
 
Another observation as to why it is so difficult to discern the reasons for voting or not, is because within the two-party system, we no longer have a party which upholds conservative values. Both major parties are now given to the same inclinations toward globalism, big government and the loss of individual freedoms. And both parties have been quilty of unequaled corruption and deceit. I guess John Adams was right when he said this Constitutional Republic was made only for a moral and religious people. If we are truly people of faith, it becomes more difficult to stay within the narrow confines of the pre-chosen two, who do not, in any way, seem to share our values.
You made a statement with zero evidence provided to back it up. Unlike what’s going on with the Obama administration, there’s never been a Republican candidate who has issued a mandate telling Catholics to go against our conscience. The fact is that the DNC and the RNC are always on opposite sides on every Pro-Life issue. Although you might find one or two dissenters within each their number is insignificant because they are swallowed up majority opinion of each respective political party. The DNC and RNC are like night and day.
 
So - you are suggesting that in reality, we only have two choices. So what am I to do, an ardent pro-lifer who gives primary consideration to life issues, when in my conscience I believe that **neither **candidate is pro-life? So we are back to the lesser of two evils argument, and my conscience will not allow me to vote for any evil if I have conviction that a 3rd party candidate is pro-life, regardless of whether he has a chance to win.
I like you would have preferred the ardent prolifer candidate who was running but I will vote for the one who will uphold the first amendment rights of the constitution, not take away our religious freedom and force the business owners of Catholic Charities and other institutions to pay for the insurance of their employees. This is already happening. Some have had to quit helping out the poor and shut down because they could not afford to stay in business.

The Catholic charities are one of the largest in the world! Now there will be far more people in need! The administration is taking away our ability to do social justice!:eek:
 
The current administration is also very prochoice! As Catholics we are to align our consciences with Church teaching. How can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a prochoice candidate?

Matt 16 Jesus says to his apostles, “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
 
This question treated in the abstract as a general question and not a question about the upcoming presidential election is difficult to address. My response was addressed to a situation where there are two serious intrinsic evils to choose.

Using LilyM’s example of Maximilian Kolbe, I can imagine a saint sacrificing himself for another, but I can’t imagine a saint participating in a choice between the death of two other people. Should he choose the lesser of two evils judging the value of the persons? Should he refrain from making a decision, even though the persecutors offer him the right to vote?

If a man holds a group hostage but gives you the choice of who, not you, should be executed, how would a Catholic respond?

If in a lifeboat and resources are running out, and the majority are going to choose someone to throw overboard, and you have the option to vote, how do you make your decision?

Do you have a duty to vote?
 
This question treated in the abstract as a general question and not a question about the upcoming presidential election is difficult to address. My response was addressed to a situation where there are two serious intrinsic evils to choose. Using LilyM’s example of Maximilian Kolbe, I can imagine a saint sacrificing himself for another, but I can’t imagine a saint participating in a choice between the death of two other people. Should he choose the lesser of two evils judging the value of the persons? Should he refrain from making a decision, even though the persecutors offer him the right to vote? If a man holds a group hostage but gives you the choice of who, not you, should be executed, how would a Catholic respond? If in a lifeboat and resources are running out, and the majority are going to choose someone to throw overboard, and you have the option to vote, how do you make your decision? Do you have a duty to vote?
But ‘choosing the lesser of two evils judging the value of the persons’ is in a very real sense exactly what St Kolbe did when it boils down to it. He judged the value of his own life to be lesser than that of his fellow prisoner, being that he was unattached whereas the fellow was a family man, and accordingly volunteered himself.

And he didn’t throw up his hands, back away and say ‘this is evil, it is too difficult, I will have no part in it and I will simply let the Nazis kill whomever they decide to kill’.

But I digress. Voting is not a situation where the results are immediate, easily foreseeable and totally unavoidable. In that sense it is unlike your or my scenarios.

It’s not a matter of ‘doesn’t matter whether you vote for x or y, umpteen number of people are beyond a doubt certain to be killed, and killed quickly’.

So it is a situation where you also have to bear in mind the future enactment of the policies the candidate campaigns on, and the likelihood of influencing them once in office.

So that if you assist the least-worst candidate to get in (say the one who is against abortion except in cases of rape and incest as opposed the one who believes in having it on demand and also wants partial birth abortions to be legal as well), you know that you will also have a greater chance, through continuous campaigning, of prevailing upon that person to change their minds in a favourable direction even after their election - to the point where perhaps that candidate ends up outlawing abortion altogether.

Whereas if through your inaction the more hard-line candidate gets in, the exact same campaigning is more likely if anything to harden them in their pro-abort stance.
 
This is elementary, my dear Watson.

2 major political parties, correct?
Correct - but this has not always been the case. The original Parties in the US were the Whigs and the Federalists. They were supplanted by other parties - including some strong third parties such as the Grange.
So the thing to remember is that the “major parties” remain the “major parties” only so long as most people vote for them…
You vote for one party, your vote supports that party’s candidate.
Correct…And also supports the agendas contained in the party platforms.
You vote 3rd party, your vote is removed from the pool of either of the major party’s candidates, and given to a candidate WHO WILL NOT WIN the election.
So how does this make my vote “wasted”…Are we trying to “pick a winner” like a horse race?
It is the same thing as not voting at all. You can argue with me, the result does not change. Your vote has not counted in the general election.
No reason for me to argue with you. You have made an erroneous statement here - in fact two erroneous statements.
The fact is that my vote HAS counted in the general election. Some person (or machine) has looked at my ballot and tallied my vote just the same as yours. One person, one vote.
And this is most definitely NOT the same as not voting at all. It provides support for a group and a viewpoint that more closely agrees with my own. And if enough people would stop falling for the garbage and lies of the major parties, and started voting for third parties - in every election - so that the major parties begin to see 10 to 20 percent of the votes being siphoned off, you just watch how quickly they begin to “backpedal” and rewrite their agendas etc…
Will this ever happen?? I doubt it. Too many people prefer to try to “pick a winner” instead of truly voting their conscience.

It’s sad…

Peace
James
 
And in the meantime, while you throw away your vote, how many truly evil politicians have been elected and how many judges appointed by those politicians who are TRULY pro-abortion, hate America, are socialists or even Communists? Do we really have the time to dork around holding our vote back? Not any more. Maybe in 1970, when the country wasn’t on the brink of oblivion by our debt and our enemies. Grow up!
Personally - I often feel that a vote for the “lesser of two evils” is much more of a wasted vote than voting third party…

Give me a Truly Moral - Truly “Christian” - Truly Honest choice and I’ll be first there to vote for them.

Peace
James
 
And in the meantime, while you throw away your vote, how many truly evil politicians have been elected and how many judges appointed by those politicians who are TRULY pro-abortion, hate America, are socialists or even Communists? Do we really have the time to dork around holding our vote back? Not any more. Maybe in 1970, when the country wasn’t on the brink of oblivion by our debt and our enemies. Grow up!
Meanwhile, while you throw away your chance to vote for a party you really favor, how many truly mediocre politicians have been put in power and how many truly superior candidates both now and in the future have you relegated to failure by your lack of hope? Do we really have time to dork around selecting mediocre candidates over really superior ones? Not any more. You grow up!
 
By not voting you are saying that you will be satisfied with whomever is elected.
Or maybe I am saying exactly the opposite: that I am dissatisfied with whomever is elected.

I agree that voting third party can send a message and allows a person to vote–not for the lesser of two evils–but for the very best candidate available. Of course if enough people stayed home, that would send a very unnerving message to the leaders. This may be the year I follow the guy below on the left:

http://freeisbeautiful.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/how-power-works.jpg

In my state, they always give you an “I Voted” sticker to wear around the rest of the day. I have always refused it, much to the annoyance of the blue-hair ladies. Reminds me of getting ashes on Ash Wednesday(which is fine), but I’m just not into civil sacramentals.
 
Or maybe I am saying exactly the opposite: that I am dissatisfied with whomever is elected.

I agree that voting third party can send a message and allows a person to vote–not for the lesser of two evils–but for the very best candidate available. Of course if enough people stayed home, that would send a very unnerving message to the leaders. This may be the year I follow the guy below on the left:

http://freeisbeautiful.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/how-power-works.jpg

In my state, they always give you an “I Voted” sticker to wear around the rest of the day. I have always refused it, much to the annoyance of the blue-hair ladies. Reminds me of getting ashes on Ash Wednesday(which is fine), but I’m just not into civil sacramentals.
Our politicians show precious little care for those who cannot vote (think the unborn, children, refugees, and those dying or ill who are in danger of being euthanased against their will).

I have yet to see any evidence that they will exhibit any greater concern for those who can vote but choose not to, seeing as how it’s not like the other guy is getting their votes. 🤷
 
Candidate A - fully pro-life, pro-SSM
Candidate B - partially pro-life, pro-SSM
Candidate C - fully pro-life, anti-SSM (no chance of winning this election)

Hold your nose and vote for candidate A?
Hold your nose and vote for candidate B?
Breath freely and vote for candidate C?
Do we have to vote?
 
Or maybe I am saying exactly the opposite: that I am dissatisfied with whomever is elected.

I agree that voting third party can send a message and allows a person to vote–not for the lesser of two evils–but for the very best candidate available. Of course if enough people stayed home, that would send a very unnerving message to the leaders. This may be the year I follow the guy below on the left:
(Snip)
Yes I understand the frustration, but please don’t assume that the guy leaving the area is just going home…He may be going to another candidate.
You say above that if enough people stay at home it will send an “unnerving message” - I disagree. Silence is not a message in this case - it is simply silence - or else is construed as consent. The old Maxim in law - “Qui tacet consentire” - “Silence gives consent” holds true.
Our politicians show precious little care for those who cannot vote (think the unborn, children, refugees, and those dying or ill who are in danger of being euthanized against their will).

I have yet to see any evidence that they will exhibit any greater concern for those who can vote but choose not to, seeing as how it’s not like the other guy is getting their votes. 🤷
Agreed. Well said.
Staying at home is voting - but it is a negative vote. It says "I am against…whatever and whoever. But it is also a blanket negative vote. It is equally against a small party candidate as a big party candidate. It is better that we vote for something/someone than to not vote at all.
Candidate A - fully pro-life, pro-SSM
Candidate B - partially pro-life, pro-SSM
Candidate C - fully pro-life, anti-SSM (no chance of winning this election)

Hold your nose and vote for candidate A?
Hold your nose and vote for candidate B?
Breath freely and vote for candidate C?
Do we have to vote?
Nicely put. 👍

Peace
James
 
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