Do we judge when we punish people?

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Is it judging a person’s soul when we punish them?

I think that it is a possibility -we punish in order to correct a person and we can’t punish to correct unless we know that a person is wrong.

A few subsidiary questions: Is it possible to have knowledge per science of everything? I know that we cannot have knowledge per every particular thing but knowledge per science is different and sees particulars only as instances of universals.

And as an implication, can we have a science about all of the ideas in a man’s soul? If we can, then can we rightly judge that man all the time?
 
No. It is not judging a persons soul when they are punished.

People are punished for things they do. A bank robber would get punished for robbing a bank. If the robber, had planned to donate all the stolen money to a needy orphanage, he would be no less guilty of robbing the bank.

The soul is not considered when being judged in our world, only actions.
 
The soul is not considered when being judged in our world, only actions.
Interesting quote…

However, if you were sitting in a coffee shop and overheard a person talking about his sexual relations with girls, is it okay to judge that he committed the adultery sin?
 
Actually, contrary to the above statement,
ALL TOO OFTEN,
we ARE judging a person’s soul when we or the State punishes him or her.
People may SAY they aren’t doing that, BUT their choices of words, expressions,
and attitudes put the lie to their denials.
They say things like, “lock 'em up and throw away the key.” and “they better get their behinds ready for their prison boyfriends,” etc etc.
Comments dripping with vindictive self-righteousness.
As if they themselves are not sinners deserving of PUBLIC EXECUTION, the judicial punishment of death, because of their own mortal sins, even if repentant.
Remember, Divine and Natural Law prescribe the Death Penalty for many sins:
blasphemy, adultery, fornication, all sodomy, and many others, including murder (including abortion-- both for the abortionist and the one receiving the abortion) , but certainly not LIMITED to murder. But because the State, run by fallen, sinful man, no longer punishes most of these crimes as the crimes they ARE according to Divine and natural law, the people who have committed these crimes think of themselves as merely being repentant “sinners” while things like tax evaders, embezzlers, etc., these people they consider “criminals” deserving to rot behind bars while they do not feel that they themselves are criminals at all, but rather as law-abiding citizens. And they often have the chutzpah to wish severe punishments on people whose crimes, biblically-speaking,
call for FAR LESS PUNISHMENT than their OWN sins (for example, the thief is only required under divine and natural law, to return what he or she stole and make reparations to the offended party). The adulterer, by contrast, and the fornicator and others, are supposed to be publicly judged, condemned, and executed. People wax eloquent that God commands that murderers be put to death (and his written Law DOES call for that, explicitly), but ignore that their own sins, since the fallible, fallen, corrupt human State chooses not to punish them anymore, deserve infinitely worse punishment than do the sins of thieves (nonviolent), welfare queens, tax evaders, etc. (Assault, rape, murder are in a category all their own and far more serious than the previously named offenses).
Thus the harsh remarks you often hear and read about people who violate civil laws, the laws of Man, made by people who, themselves, deserve the Death Penalty but fail to keep that in mind and are thus merciless toward others who fail and commit various offenses.
I do not, and will not, condone bank robbers, shoplifters, purse snatchers (what malicious cowards) and the people who are breaking into my parish church (it happened again the other night) to steal church property (also a malicious outrageous sacrilege in addition to being stealing), but yes, all too often people DO judge a person’s soul when he or she is convicted of some misdeed. Witness today the fans of Michael Jackson whooping and celebrating that the doctor who gave him his dangerous medicine ----- which the pampered, spoiled, drug-addicted Jackson had been taking for a long time and was demanding more and more of – is sentenced to prison. I am outraged that this doctor was convicted of ANYTHING. These super-rich, drug addicted, pampered entertainers are used to demanding all the drugs they want, and then if something happens to them, people pounce on the doctor instead of saying, correctly, that, sorry as it is to have to say,
Michael brought a lot of this ON HIMSELF. This doctor is being wrongly libelled as some kind of malicious killer. What a horrible slander. In no way did he want Jackson dead. He made his living treating celebrities, for crying out loud. If you kill them, your income dries up. It would not be in his financial interest to risk, knowingly, harming Michael Jackson.
Many, many Catholics who call for severe punishments of even non violent offenders, forget that the church is full of people whom, if the state chose to enforce it’s laws, would be locked up, and these are repentant people, maybe even some of YOU. We have support groups, for example, for repentant illegal narcotics addicts. Great!! Praise the LORD!!! But remember, these now good Christian folk weren’t just taking narcotics.
To get them, they had to regularly buy them. Buying illegal narcotics makes them guilty of narco-trafficking, a federal offense and “felony” each time. If they were addicted for any length of time, they committed these offenses many times, each time they bought the narcotics. Yet they are celebrated, when repentant, as trophies of the Church. Nobody maliciously calls for these people to rot behind bars. They are not being judged and condemned by anyone. But it is a human tendency to harshly judge others’s faults and sins and minimize our own. Now, hating evil deeds is a good thing. We must have a Faith-informed moral compass. But as Christians, we MUST temper it with mercy, or we ourselves will be judged VERY VERY HARSHLY by God, even IF we are otherwise very pious, say ten rosaries a day, and receive daily communion. We will ONLY be shown as much mercy as WE show. Jesus said so explicitly.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Interesting quote…

However, if you were sitting in a coffee shop and overheard a person talking about his sexual relations with girls, is it okay to judge that he committed the adultery sin?
That’s the money quote: if we don’t judge people’s soul, the we don’t know if someone is really committing the sin of adultery or is just having unintentional sex. If we say that someone is committing adultery then we are implicitly saying that we know that he intentionally did it -we know his soul. Unless of course, we said it only hypothetically like “if you did x, then y would happen”.

Which is why the other questions matter: can you possibly know what happens in someone’s mind? And again I think it is arguable that you can -or else it would be in vain to say that you agree or disagree with a person’s ideas; how do you know that, if you don’t know their soul?
 
That’s the money quote: if we don’t judge people’s soul, the we don’t know if someone is really committing the sin of adultery or is just having unintentional sex. If we say that someone is committing adultery then we are implicitly saying that we know that he intentionally did it -we know his soul. Unless of course, we said it only hypothetically like “if you did x, then y would happen”.

Which is why the other questions matter: can you possibly know what happens in someone’s mind? And again I think it is arguable that you can -or else it would be in vain to say that you agree or disagree with a person’s ideas; how do you know that, if you don’t know their soul?
Exactly, we do judge people. This should not be a revelation though, since after all we call the people who preside over our courts “judges”.

Also I have to lol at this: “unintentional sex”
There is no such thing haha. They ARE committing adultery the question is just whether they are culpable for the act.
 
To Nate: "Exactly, we do judge people. This should not be a revelation though, since after all we call the people who preside over our courts “judges”.

Also I have to lol at this: “unintentional sex”
There is no such thing haha. They ARE committing adultery the question is just whether they are culpable for the act."

But are we judging or are we (1) making a hypothetical judgement (if you have sex in this way then it is wrong, regardless of whether you did have sex in this way) and then (2) punishing only the behavior?

Also, no matter how unlikely it seems that at least in principle someone could have unintentional sex (but the likelihood of this happening is only slightly greater than a unicorn existing) and this affects culpability.
 
But are we judging or are we (1) making a hypothetical judgement (if you have sex in this way then it is wrong, regardless of whether you did have sex in this way) and then (2) punishing only the behavior?
No the courts definitely apply guilt and its not just about whether the action was committed or not but whether they knowingly and willfully committed the act. Accidentally killing someone is not considered murder and is not punished assuming the person who did the killing was guilty of negligence or something. We also make exceptions if the sanity of a person is questionable, and we also don’t attribute as much guilt to people under the age of 18 who are not held to the same standards as adults many times.

If you think about what consists of a mortal sin we follow it pretty closely in applying guilt in our court system.
  1. It must be done willfully. I.e this is where most of the exceptions I listed above fall under as not meeting this. If its an accident or someone was not in their right mind when it was done, it wasn’t done willfully.
  2. With knowledge that it was wrong and the possible punishment. This works similarly to how the Church handles it. There are really very few acceptable excuses for not knowing something is wrong. The main example is if a young child shoots someone. You could argue that were not of a state of reason to be able to say they did it willfully but you could also argue that they could not be expected to know what they were doing was wrong. Full access to the laws of the land are available and negligence in pursuing an answer to this is not an acceptable excuse.
  3. Punishments are doled on with respect to the degree of the wrong committed.
Do you see why its silly for people to bring out calls to “stop judging people” on this forum and in life? Judging is an objectively neutral action and whether its right or wrong depends on the circumstances surrounding it. We want calls for just judgements.
 
**2) With knowledge that it was wrong and the possible punishment. This works similarly to how the Church handles it. There are really very few acceptable excuses for not knowing something is wrong. The main example is if a young child shoots someone. You could argue that were not of a state of reason to be able to say they did it willfully but you could also argue that they could not be expected to know what they were doing was wrong. Full access to the laws of the land are available and negligence in pursuing an answer to this is not an acceptable excuse.
  1. Punishments are doled on with respect to the degree of the wrong committed.**
re: point #2) some things are obviously wrong and illegal, like armed robbery, assault, stealing another person’s bank account info and then cleaning out his account, vandalism, rape, murder. Many, many other things are not so obviously so. Must we study all the Laws of the Land before we do anything? “Very few acceptable excuses for not knowing” is really very very harsh. For example, I was raised on the doctrines of a non-Christian cult. We read the bible, we prayed, the people were nice and godfearing. I had no rational reason whatsoever to even REMOTELY SUSPECT that I even POSSIBLY MIGHT be in the wrong religion. Many years later, to my surprise, I found out that I was.
Should I burn in hell for all those years of being wrong and for failing to spend hours a day in historical research of Christianity, when I had no rational reason whatsoever to even suspect we were in total error? Those who judge harshly like that, will be judged harshly by God, even if they are just doing their job.

re: point #3, punishments are doled out with respect to the degree of the wrong committed. WELL, ideally, that would be the case. In reality, it is not.
I’ll give you some examples. Someone I know had a son who apparently committed something called wire fraud to the tune of several million dollars, and got caught. He was sentenced to a very PLEASANT, low security (not even fence around the place to keep them from escaping) federal prison camp for three years. He was out in a year and a half.
While a black teenager from the ghetto who is caught with a pound of cocaine in his possession (whether on his person, in car, or in his bedroom at home) gets 20 years in a standard state or federal pen where he will be beaten, raped, stabbed and forced to join a god-hating, racist prison gang. He will emerge much more corrupt than when he went in.
Or this: a woman who used to work at my company was caught red-handed embezzling from the company, after she had already embezzled half a million dollars. She was not about to stop. She got caught. Half a million, willfully, knowingly, deliberately, by plan, design, and execution. It would have been much much, more had they not caught on when they did. They prosecuted her. SHE got three years in a nice, low security ladie’s facility in upstate New York, placed THERE so that she could have frequent visits from nearby relatives. Had she been black, I can all but guarantee you that her sentence would have been far, far more severe. Three years for half a million, done on purpose.
But a 17 year old boy recently forged his mom’s signature on 3 checks, totalling Three Hundred Dollars. (he was the kid on one of the reality tv shows). HE is looking at 60 to 90 years in an extremely dangerous prison. For 300 bucks.
No, good friend, punishments are very frequently NOT doled out in accordance with the seriousness of the offense. There is a great deal of back-room dealing, politicking, and all kinds of stuff. The legal system’s “icon” of sorts is the blind woman holding the “scales of justice.” In reality, in practice, that is pure bull-feathers. If you are wealthy and well-connected, you will likely have no problems. You will also be able to (illegally) BUY OFF members of the jury, too. You will likely face little or no time if you are very wealthy. Unless you committed murders.
Bernie Madoff is an exception, not the rule.
Thank goodness Jesus Christ died for all human beings’ sins. If you repent, all due punishments, temporal and eternal, are washed away at your baptism. If you sin AFTER baptism, once you are genuinely sorry you sinned, and determined to try with God’s help to avoid any future sins (at least mortal ones), you can erase your temporal punishments remaining (whether in this life or the next) by acquiring plenary and partial indulgences.
We are supposed to be people who try to bring people to repentance and amendment of life, leading to peacable, holy behaviour, not people who are out to have people made more corrupt than they were before due to extremely harsh punishments.
Saint Paul, writing to the Corinthians about the repentant Incestuous Man (a crime considered extremely heinous even in ancient pagan societies), Paul was not vindictive at all. He urged the congregation to comfort the man and confirm their love for him, not throw the book at him, because otherwise the repentant man might be swallowed up by grief and despair, caused directly by the Devil for, as Paul put it, “we are not ignorant of his designs.”
Of course, I have again digressed (sorry!!). But no, all too often, if you are loaded with money, you’ll get very little if any time regardless of what you did, OR, if you know the right people OR make the right backroom deals. A year and a half for several million bucks of “wire” fraud, but 60 to 90 years for 300 bucks on a couple of forged checks.
Sound right to you??
 
And I do agree with the poster above who noted, hilariously,
that there “is no such thing as UNINTENTIONAL SEX.”

There ARE horrible things like rape, etc.,
but when two consenting adults engage in sexual intercourse,
there is no way that it is “UNintentional.”

Unintentional Sex. LOL.
 
Is it judging a person’s soul when we punish them?

I think that it is a possibility -we punish in order to correct a person and we can’t punish to correct unless we know that a person is wrong.

A few subsidiary questions: Is it possible to have knowledge per science of everything? I know that we cannot have knowledge per every particular thing but knowledge per science is different and sees particulars only as instances of universals.

And as an implication, can we have a science about all of the ideas in a man’s soul? If we can, then can we rightly judge that man all the time?
Judging is when we set ourselves up has the determining factor in a man’s guilt and we pass a verdict.

However, judging is not to be confused with fraternal correction. In this case in order to correct, one must observe what seems to be an incorrect action (the benefit of the doubt in charity). I have seen Catholics at this point mistakenly accuse the observer of judging. It must be remembered the person whose action is in question deserves in charity to be taken aside and not be presumed in error. Entering the inquiry stage we become good listeners and determine if an action deserves correction if intent and motive are present. We suggest a proper action. Regardless of the reaction, our task is complete.

If it is impossible to determine the intent and motive then there it remains, we have met the limits of our jurisdiction, otherwise again presumption with it’s sister scandal rears it’s head once more.

From a secular standpoint this is another matter all together.

Andy
 
Judging is when we set ourselves up has the determining factor in a man’s guilt and we pass a verdict.

"However, judging is not to be confused with fraternal correction. In this case in order to correct, one must observe what seems to be an incorrect action (the benefit of the doubt in charity). I have seen Catholics at this point mistakenly accuse the observer of judging. It must be remembered the person whose action is in question deserves in charity to be taken aside and not be presumed in error. Entering the inquiry stage we become good listeners and determine if an action deserves correction if intent and motive are present. We suggest a proper action. Regardless of the reaction, our task is complete.

If it is impossible to determine the intent and motive then there it remains, we have met the limits of our jurisdiction, otherwise again presumption with it’s sister scandal rears it’s head once more.

From a secular standpoint this is another matter all together.

Andy"

But then the question is, what happens when we punish people? If you punish your kids you are inherently judging their guilt and their soul.

Again, too, what happens if someone correctly predicts, that someone else will go to hell? Is it really so wrong to be right? This brings us back to the other questions -is it in principle possible to determine the likelihood of someone going to heaven or hell? That is,can one say “given x, y is going to go to heaven/hell?”
 
Our Lord said “if your brother sins, rebuke him”. So at some point we have the right and sometimes even the duty to determine whether someone has transgressed and if so to call them out on it.

Yes, He also said ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ but this would seem to be a somewhat hyperbolic statement when taken in context with other teachings such as ‘with whatever judgement ye judge, ye shall also be judged’.

In other words, yes, sometimes it is necessary for us to judge, however we need to be mindful that we ourselves are subject to judgement, and so temper our judgement with charity, mercy and forbearance, as we hope to receive all these at our own judgement.
 
But then the question is, what happens when we punish people?
If you punish your kids you are inherently judging their guilt and their soul.

Dealing with humans who have not reached the stage of reason presents another case. The case with children is correction. It should be remembered that not even the angels judge. St. Michael in dispute with Lucifer over the body of Moses was cautious not to judge. He states, “May the Lord judge you”.

The punishment of children is permitted (Sirach). Punishment becomes a corporal and sensual reminder and has the purpose of curbing behaviour. For the mature, additionally it becomes a temporal diminishment of the time in purgatory. When we do good we receive sensual reminders has well, each reminds the memory of consequences.

Civilly our Lord is represented by the authority of the nation. The people in commune
have the Divine sanction to administer rewards as well as punitive measures, save for the removal of life in typical situations. (Rom 13,1)

Is it really so wrong to be right?

Until we shake off the burden of internal influences which occurs when we finally come out of exile and rid ourselves of our material shell, we may not always get it right. Even so, judgement is reserved to the creator.

Again, too, what happens if someone correctly predicts, that someone else will go to hell?

Getting it right does not acquit the sin of presumption. Ignoring this we find ourselves playing the odds on favorites with all. The criminal on the cross must had had many who wagered he would never make it. While he enjoys the company of Jesus in paradise, the fallout remaining on earth after his death is a group of people who have formed a new habit(sin compounding), of the consequence of reduced graces which further weaken them in this regard.

The intent is to get the human to focus on others rather than himself. A habit seemingly benign initially, eventually could control the individual.

This brings us back to the other questions -is it in principle possible to determine the likelihood of someone going to heaven or hell?

No.

One of the friars in the Franciscan order had a revelation where he was told outright by the Holy Spirit that he was going to hell. He pleaded with St. Francis for help who prayed for his soul(Little Flowers). His prayer was granted and the friar was taken out of his terror and misery. With this lesson we can be reassured that we have value and are loved even to the last decision rendered by the celestial court.

Andy
 
“The case with children is correction.”

what is it that we are correcting? And how much reason does a child have?
 
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