Do we know for a fact we are saved

[mmmcounts]

Isn’t thinking you are locked in like thinking you no longer need to continue to strive for holiness? I don’t know.

Thinking (that is, knowing) you have an inheritance in heaven doesn’t get in the way of wanting to obey God. Here’s why.

Continuing to strive for holiness and desiring to live in obedience to God is (Biblically) done out of love for God. I think there’s something very wrong with insisting that someone will only do these things if it’s contingent on the reward of eternal life in heaven.

It’s like expecting a teenager to keep going to school when he has every diploma from the best schools in his top desk drawer at home. Think he still would?

There are people (not teenagers, of course) who have a BA from a top university, two Masters, and three doctorates. And they continue accumulating degrees they don’t really need. These are not people who need degrees in order to have a particular job. They do it because…you ready for this?

They love learning, particularly within the context of academia. Some people really are lifelong academics. They just love it.

There are some other people (ie., the person who’s most analogous to you) who take the road more frequently traveled and suffer through the process of getting a certain degree so that they can get a certain kind of job. But there are other kinds of people who really love doing this kind of thing and they will keep themselves in a rigorous learning environment at all times just because they love it (and, in most cases, are able to do it at no cost by one means or another).

As you look around your typical classroom, most of the people there are only in it for whatever follows- the job, the position, the doors that are unlocked by that degree. But if you’re looking for the kind of person who really loves being an academic and sticks around just because of that, you might have to look to the professor. If it’s a professor that has more doctorates than he/she really needs, you’ve probably found your person.

It’s funny that you would discount the entire premise of striving for holiness out of love for God. You’re really suggesting that if you want to get someone to strive for holiness, the reward of eternal life with God must be alternately extended and withheld. This is a sad, sad assessment of Christianity, and quite frankly, not very Catholic. I thought love was important to you guys. It seems to come up quite a bit in most other conversations.

But hey, I’m not a Catholic. I’m not in much of a position to tell you what is and isn’t “Catholic.” It just seems that way to me.

One more thought: If you find that an individual really doesn’t care to strive for holiness when the reward of eternal life is not at stake…doesn’t that tend to make you think that person doesn’t love God and probably never did? And if you happened to be looking at a group of people who strive for holiness due to fear of punishment and loss…how do you know which ones love God? Those would be the people who continue to strive for holiness even when they’re not in fear of punishment, right? But how do you know which is which? Would such a person be able to tell you from their own self-assessment, or would even that be impossible?

 

[Joshua27]

And to say that because we’re following the terms of the deal today we’re “covered” if we break the terms later makes no sense. People have free will. Free will to believe and stop believing, to live by the terms and to not live by the terms.

What really makes no sense to me is the idea that because Jesus dies on the cross, we don’t have to do anything but believe, when Jesus tells us differently. Some say, “I believe, so I am saved.” and Jesus might say, “You say you believe. Show me. Show me today, tomorrow, and until your death that you believe. I will give you your whole life to live as a Christian, and I won’t make judgement until you die. **You cannot be condemned until you die. (I won’t condemn someone while they still have the chance to repent.) **Similarly, you cannot know that you will be saved until you die. So work on it. I offer salvation. Will you live up to your end of the bargain?”

When we die, the bill comes due. Again, what is the price of deadly sin?

Indeed…but here’s an interesting “twist” that you may not agree with: “Physical death” is not [real] Death, but a prototype of [real] Death. You’re either “saved” [have life] or you’re “dead”…Death is not a moment when “judgement (salvation/condemnation) is determined”. [Real] Death is condemnation.

What do you think about this?

 

[kalt]

Thinking (that is, knowing) you have an inheritance in heaven doesn’t get in the way of wanting to obey God. Here’s why.

Continuing to strive for holiness and desiring to live in obedience to God is (Biblically) done out of love for God. I think there’s something very wrong with insisting that someone will only do these things if it’s contingent on the reward of eternal life in heaven.

There are people (not teenagers, of course) who have a BA from a top university, two Masters, and three doctorates. And they continue accumulating degrees they don’t really need. These are not people who need degrees in order to have a particular job. They do it because…you ready for this?

They love learning, particularly within the context of academia. Some people really are lifelong academics. They just love it.

There are some other people (ie., the person who’s most analogous to you) who take the road more frequently traveled and suffer through the process of getting a certain degree so that they can get a certain kind of job. But there are other kinds of people who really love doing this kind of thing and they will keep themselves in a rigorous learning environment at all times just because they love it (and, in most cases, are able to do it at no cost by one means or another).

As you look around your typical classroom, most of the people there are only in it for whatever follows- the job, the position, the doors that are unlocked by that degree. But if you’re looking for the kind of person who really loves being an academic and sticks around just because of that, you might have to look to the professor. If it’s a professor that has more doctorates than he/she really needs, you’ve probably found your person.

It’s funny that you would discount the entire premise of striving for holiness out of love for God. You’re really suggesting that if you want to get someone to strive for holiness, the reward of eternal life with God must be alternately extended and withheld. This is a sad, sad assessment of Christianity, and quite frankly, not very Catholic. I thought love was important to you guys. It seems to come up quite a bit in most other conversations.

But hey, I’m not a Catholic. I’m not in much of a position to tell you what is and isn’t “Catholic.” It just seems that way to me.

One more thought: If you find that an individual really doesn’t care to strive for holiness when the reward of eternal life is not at stake…doesn’t that tend to make you think that person doesn’t love God and probably never did? And if you happened to be looking at a group of people who strive for holiness due to fear of punishment and loss…how do you know which ones love God? Those would be the people who continue to strive for holiness even when they’re not in fear of punishment, right? But how do you know which is which? Would such a person be able to tell you from their own self-assessment, or would even that be impossible?

I think you misunderstand Catholic teaching. The Church doesn’t teach that we can earn salvation through our own power. We rely on Christ. Our hope is in Christ.

The Church doesn’t teach that we have to do good deeds for a reward, as if we’re puppies.

But the in the Bible it’s clear that salvation isn’t guaranteed. We know that we will be held accountable for all that we say, do, and don’t do when we are judged. If we are “saved” in the OSAS sense at the moment of conversion, there would be no reason to be judged at death. If there is no penalty for sin after conversion, what accountability is the Bible talking about?

There isn’t just one conversion. There is ongoing conversion. We turn away from God when we sin. We return to God when we repent and Confess. God guarantees that we can always return to Him. It’s only when we commit mortal sin and die unrepentant that we are condemned to eternal separation from God.

At any rate, it’s God who decides who is saved and who isn’t. God didn’t give us the power to save or condemn, though many OSAS advocates seem to think that they do. How many times have we seen the OSAS debate on this board come around to the idea that any “saved” person who commits a mortal sin was “obviously” not really saved, as if they have the power to know and to declare who is saved, and taken to the logical next step, to know and declare who is condemned.

 

[kalt]

Indeed…but here’s an interesting “twist” that you may not agree with: “Physical death” is not [real] Death, but a prototype of [real] Death. You’re either “saved” [have life] or you’re “dead”…Death is not a moment when “judgement (salvation/condemnation) is determined”. [Real] Death is condemnation.

What do you think about this?

Do you agree that we are judged at our death?
Do you agree that God doesn’t condemn Christians to death (eternal separation from God) until their bodily death?

Do you believe that God condemns us to death (eternal separation from God - meaning having no recourse to God’s forgiveness) while we are still living?

Again, this is about deadly sin.

 

[jericho777]

Mt 3:7-10
"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In Mt 3:7-10 Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and Sadducees they were always doing works that’s all they did. The point was their works were works of the flesh not of the Spirit working through them.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This verse shows it’s God’s power that keeps us unto salvation not our own. Just ask your self who chose where you would be born, what color your eyes would be or how long you will live? Our lives are literally in His hands. We can not sustain our own being for the small period of time. It is all Him for His Glory. Phil 2:12-13 continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 

[jericho777]

I think you misunderstand Catholic teaching. The Church doesn’t teach that we can earn salvation through our own power. We rely on Christ. Our hope is in Christ. .

So you are saying it is Jesus who saves you by His own will and power? Not by your works? It is your hope in Christ that saves you?

The Church doesn’t teach that we have to do good deeds for a reward, as if we’re puppies.

But the in the Bible it’s clear that salvation isn’t guaranteed. We know that we will be held accountable for all that we say, do, and don’t do when we are judged. If we are “saved” in the OSAS sense at the moment of conversion, there would be no reason to be judged at death. If there is no penalty for sin after conversion, what accountability is the Bible talking about? .

Who chose you to be who you are? Who gives the grace to be saved in the first place?

Phil 4:3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Is telling these people they are guaranteed of eternal life now. Because any ones name that is written in the book of Life is guaranteed of eternal life

 

[Xavierlives]

How can you be saved when you have yet to die and be judged?

How does a person know they are condemned until they are judged?

 

[kalt]

So you are saying it is Jesus who saves you by His own will and power? Not by your works? It is your hope in Christ that saves you?

Who chose you to be who you are? Who gives the grace to be saved in the first place?

Phil 4:3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Is telling these people they are guaranteed of eternal life now. Because any ones name that is written in the book of Life is guaranteed of eternal life

It is only through Christ that anyone is saved. He tells us what the terms are.

 

[estradamanny98]

since NO HUMAN has ever laid eyes on the “BOOK OF LIFE”, no living human can KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt. We can assume, we can Hope, we can have the Assurance that if we comply with the various scriptures & mandates set forth therein ( we must confess, be baptized, persevere, do good works, etc) that we will in all likelihood ultimately join GOD in Heaven in the fullness of time.

But since the final Judgment has yet to come & the “Book of Life” has yet to be opened, & since we are still Living & not yet judged, we can NOT Know with an absolute certainty where our Eternal Home shall be… We have only Faith, Hope & Love and an absolute reliance upon God & His Infinite Mercy.

Yes i do believed we are yet to be judged therefore we cannot say that we are saved up this time…

 

[kalt]

How does a person know they are condemned until they are judged?

We know if we have commited a deadly sin. If we have, we know that we are in danger of being condemned by God. We can reasonably know if we are repentant. If we are and make a good Confession, we are reconciled to God. We can reasonably know if we are in a state of grace, because in sacramental Confession, we are assured by God that we are forgiven. We are given absolution - along with penance.

But these are momentary conditions. Being in a state of grace today is no guarantee that we will always be in a state of grace. As I said in an earlier post, there is no such thing as one moment of conversion. There is constant conversion. We are converted over and over again.

Unless you are saying that you lack free will or that you know you will never commit a deadly sin (saying that you know the future), you can’t know that you are saved in the OSAS sense.

God makes His judgement at your death. You are not condemned to death (eternal separation from God) until you die, even if you have commited a deadly sin. And, as natrually follows, you are not saved until you die.

What you have right now is a promise from God that you have eternal life **if **you follow his rules. You have the potential to live up to the bargain you agreed to when you were baptized. With God’s help and your persistence to the end, you will have eternal life.

Keep the faith.

 

[Bill_Pick]

How does a person know they are condemned until they are judged?

and Paul said he that endur till the END will se save is the end here or will that come laterMT 10;22

 

[Newbie2]

Okay. I wanted to hear your best response. The underlined part is at the core of what you are saying.

Kalt

John

I appreciate your responses though.

Is it within the realm of possibility that John meant, “…you may know that you have eternal life” to mean that there is no guarantee, but that we can have confidence in our Lord’s promise?

We also have to distinguish between “will be saved” and “are already saved”. Which do you think John means.

 

[mangy_dog]

Hi Bill,

Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 1:6 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

1 Thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

No one can presume of their salvation. There is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing.

Even Paul tells us that we should { work out our salvation in fear and trembling} .

All of the scriptures you’ve quoted above are perfectly in line with Pauls indication that we can’t presume of salvation. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on our souls at the hour of our death.

Purgatory will be the place of purging and cleansing before we are ready to enter into His Kingdom and into His Presence.

The moment in which you think that you are free from sin…you have already sinned of pride.

 

[Bill_Pick]

No one can presume of their salvation. There is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing.

Even Paul tells us that we should { work out our salvation in fear and trembling} .

All of the scriptures you’ve quoted above are perfectly in line with Pauls indication that we can’t presume of salvation. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on our souls at the hour of our death.

Purgatory will be the place of purging and cleansing before we are ready to enter into His Kingdom and into His Presence.

The moment in which you think that you are free from sin…you have already sinned of pride.

A+

 

[jericho777]

No one can presume of their salvation. There is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing.

Even Paul tells us that we should { work out our salvation in fear and trembling} .

All of the scriptures you’ve quoted above are perfectly in line with Pauls indication that we can’t presume of salvation. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on our souls at the hour of our death.

Purgatory will be the place of purging and cleansing before we are ready to enter into His Kingdom and into His Presence.

The moment in which you think that you are free from sin…you have already sinned of pride.

Phil 4:3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Paul is telling these believers they are already saved because their names are written in the Book of Life. Is Paul being presumptuous? Is there is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing?

Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 17:8 …The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Your name is written in the book of life before you were even born. You have been elected by God for salvation apart from your self. (see Rom 9)

Phil 2:12-13 continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Please read the next verse 13 for it is God who is working through the believer unto salvation it is not the work of the believer.

 

[Newbie2]

… for it is God who is working through the believer unto salvation it is not the work of the believer.

Right out of Catholic theology.

 

[Zooey]

No one can presume of their salvation. There is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing.

Even Paul tells us that we should { work out our salvation in fear and trembling} .

All of the scriptures you’ve quoted above are perfectly in line with Pauls indication that we can’t presume of salvation. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on our souls at the hour of our death.

Purgatory will be the place of purging and cleansing before we are ready to enter into His Kingdom and into His Presence.

The moment in which you think that you are free from sin…you have already sinned of pride.

As far as I understand it, this is right.:sad_yes:

 

[jericho777]

The moment in which you think that you are free from sin…you have already sinned of pride.

I have never said or supposed that. No person is ever free from sin this side of eternity it hunts us constantly.

 

[Bill_Pick]

As far as I understand it, this is right.:sad_yes:

A=

 

[kalt]

I have never said or supposed that. No person is ever free from sin this side of eternity it hunts us constantly.

What about deadly sin? Can someone who is “saved” commit a deadly sin? If he does, and is not repentant, what are the consequences of deadly sin?