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Bill_Pick
Guest
How can you be saved when you have yet to die and be judged?
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jericho777
Guest
Hi Bill,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 1:6 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
1 Thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 1:6 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
1 Thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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Rightlydivide
Guest
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Congrats for the most intelligent thread I have seen here today. I really hate the word fact being tossed around the way it is here, when most if not all of the time it’s a naked assertion.
Now that I let that out of my system, I suppose you are as accurate as can be if you see this from the point of view of a christian. No one knows, and no one can but Jesus if you believe. I’m not sure even what use it would be to think you had it locked in, because what would be motivating you to strive for this elusive holiness then? Isn’t thinking you are locked in like thinking you no longer need to continue to strive for holiness? I don’t know.
It’s like expecting a teenager to keep going to school when he has every diploma from the best schools in his top desk drawer at home. Think he still would?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Why cap the know part? I don’t have the version you have where it’s bolded. Are you taking liberties with the holy christian scriptures my friend?
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Rightlydivide
Guest
Yes. I believe it is acceptable to bold a particular verse or a word in a verse if it is germane (ie in the name of the thread). I also took the liberty of changing your disrespect of the word Christian. Unless it was just a typo; then forget I mentioned it…Why cap the know part? I don’t have the version you have where it’s bolded. Are you taking liberties with the holy Christian scriptures my friend?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
I’ll remind you that capitalization does not seem to be a need of the pope. It’s entirely proper to not captitalize pope. I guess I forget that Christians need the worldly honors more so than the pope requires of it.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
You are majoring in the minors StrawberryJam. Do try not to derail the thread too much after praising it so.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
I’m praising it because quite frankly the catholic and orthodox view here is the most logical deduction based on the narrative.
And, I also have benefited from you in being reminded of how humble the pope really is in this world of Christians. For that I also thank you! It made me remember his title “servant of servants”
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Jars_of_Clay_1
Guest
The thief on the cross only had to believe that Jesus was who He said He was. That thief was on the cross to be punished for his sins - the thief acknowledged the Lord and he is in paradise with him today.
I’m not saying that I can sit here and believe in the Lord and continue in sin. The Lord knows my heart for Him. Jesus didn’t make the thief do anything for him to be in paradise with him that very day.
Without believing in Him - He healed blindness in my left eye. Now that I do believe in Him…I know that He has never left me and will be with me for the remainder of my life here and in paradise. When my time comes to be judged…that too will be in His hands.
That’s how I know.
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imkingdad
Guest
since NO HUMAN has ever laid eyes on the “BOOK OF LIFE”, no living human can KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt. We can assume, we can Hope, we can have the Assurance that if we comply with the various scriptures & mandates set forth therein ( we must confess, be baptized, persevere, do good works, etc) that we will in all likelihood ultimately join GOD in Heaven in the fullness of time.
But since the final Judgment has yet to come & the “Book of Life” has yet to be opened, & since we are still Living & not yet judged, we can NOT Know with an absolute certainty where our Eternal Home shall be… We have only Faith, Hope & Love and an absolute reliance upon God & His Infinite Mercy.
But since the final Judgment has yet to come & the “Book of Life” has yet to be opened, & since we are still Living & not yet judged, we can NOT Know with an absolute certainty where our Eternal Home shall be… We have only Faith, Hope & Love and an absolute reliance upon God & His Infinite Mercy.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Mt 3:7-10
"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
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kalt
Guest
But you don’t seem to realize that the thief wasn’t saved because he said he was, but because He said he was. And this judgement was made at the man’s death. The judgement wasn’t the man’s opinion of his own faith. The judgement was God’s.
We’ll all be judged at our deaths–not before.
I think those who say that they are saved should be saying, “In my opinion, I am saved.” There is no way that they know God’s opinion/judgement. And how could they know it before it happens, anyway? (Knowing that though God knows all, we live in earthly time and can’t know the future.) You (universal) are going to be judged at death. If God is going to judge you at your death, how is it that you (universal) are judge today?
I’ve encountered “judges” who are hard on others - they seem to know who is and isn’t a “true” Christian. But I’ve yet to meet a “judge” who says that he’s not saved.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
John says we can know Kalt.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
Would had the thief committed sin for believing the words spoken by the judge? Why am I called a sinner for being convinced that His words are true and He is able to carry out what He has promised us?
Romans 4
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
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kalt
Guest
You are a sinner. Or are you saying that you aren’t? Are you saying that you will never sin again? That you know what the future will bring?
If Paul wasn’t convinced of his salvation, I don’t see how anyone else could be.
Knowing what it takes to be “saved” and actually being “saved” are two different things. I’m not saying that you don’t know what God says about salvation. I’m saying that you can’t know that you are saved, because that is God’s call.
God saves, not you. It’s not in your power to decide if you are saved, because only God can save–only He can make that decision. We are judge by God at death.
If you beleive that you have been judged already and that God has declared that you are saved, can you show proof of that?
I see plenty of evidence in the Bible that says if we believe we will be saved. I don’t see anything in there that says we are the ones who decide that we’ve passed the test.
As the Bible says, not all who say that they are believers will be saved. It’s clear that God, not we, decide if we are believers. And that decision is made by God at particular judgement at death.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
I know what I was and I know who I am now after regeneration. By believing in His spoken promise of eternal life through His atonement and knowing that He who promised it is true and is able to keep His word, which is the foundation for my hope, keeps me enduring in faithfulness and in the works that faithfulness produce.
Without being convinced that “I am saved” through His promise I have no hope.
It is frightening when I am convinced that He who promised is True and is also capable to keep His promise and those being the object of my hope, that this faith is considered “presumptuous sin” by the CC.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Scripture NEVER speaks of sins “not being imputed” after justification and never says that those who have been justified can no longer sin (which should be patently obvious!). Such ideas are simply wishful thinking - and are contrary to Scripture! How can one claim to be ‘bible only’ and yet believe in ways so completely contrary to Scripture? In fact, we see clearly in Scripture that sins are imputed directly to one who commits them - even after justification. For example, consider the following passages (emphasis added):
Mt. 12:36-37: I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.
Jn. 5:28-29: Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
Rom. 2:5-8: By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
2 Cor. 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
Jms. 5:12: But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your “Yes” mean “Yes” and your “No” mean “No,” that you may not incur condemnation.
2 Jn. 1:8-11: Look to yourselves that you do not lose what we worked for but may receive a full recompense. Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him; for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.
Don’t forget that St. Paul spoke of ‘excommunicating’ a believer who was guilty of sin (see 1 Cor. 5:2) and two believers died at the feet of St. Peter for lying (see Act 5:1-10)! In light of these facts, how can it be said that sin is not imputed after justification? How can such a belief be reconciled with St. Paul’s statement in 1 Cor. 5:11-13: “But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from your midst.’”…? Or with St. John’s clear statement that brothers may commit sin (see 1 Jn. 5:16-17)?
Cathloic answer
Mt. 12:36-37: I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.
Jn. 5:28-29: Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
Rom. 2:5-8: By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
2 Cor. 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
Jms. 5:12: But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your “Yes” mean “Yes” and your “No” mean “No,” that you may not incur condemnation.
2 Jn. 1:8-11: Look to yourselves that you do not lose what we worked for but may receive a full recompense. Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him; for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.
Don’t forget that St. Paul spoke of ‘excommunicating’ a believer who was guilty of sin (see 1 Cor. 5:2) and two believers died at the feet of St. Peter for lying (see Act 5:1-10)! In light of these facts, how can it be said that sin is not imputed after justification? How can such a belief be reconciled with St. Paul’s statement in 1 Cor. 5:11-13: “But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from your midst.’”…? Or with St. John’s clear statement that brothers may commit sin (see 1 Jn. 5:16-17)?
Cathloic answer
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Hello Bill Pick,
This is an excellent question. I do not believe in OSAS, as many of my Protestant brethren would claim.
Personally, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, and pray God will have mercy upon me when the final judgment comes.
I think the mistake many Christians make, is pulling out one or two passages of Scripture that make salvation appear simplistic and assured–when the New Testament, taken as a whole, in the context of the Bible as a whole, reveals many requirements for salvation.
So, I don’t think we can know, until judgment comes.
Anna
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Rightlydivide
Guest
This should be rather easy. We have this from John
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