Do we know for a fact we are saved

[kalt]

Is there a dirrerence in stealing 25 cents vs. 25 million or is the underlying fact that they are both sin? Remember Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust you are guilty of adultury.

Would you please share with me some sins that one may commit that don’t lead to death?

It seens pretty harsh that God would make all men die for Adam just eating some fruit?

A child stealing a brownie from the kitchen is not guilty of a mortal sin. A man telling his wife he likes her knew dress when he doesn’t isn’t guilty of a mortal sin.

You still haven’t define deadly sin. And you still haven’t explained why the author talks of two different kinds of sin - sin that’s deadly and sin that isn’t.

 

[kalt]

God predestines all people Rom 9:11 He chose Jacob before he was even born and hated Esau berfore he was even born. V17 God hardened Pharaoh’s heart that He might show the world His power amd proclaim His name.

V 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God exists outside of time. The fact that he knows who is saved and who isn’t doesn’t mean that we don’t have free will and can’t turn from God.

 

[kalt]

Stealing is a sin no matter what you steal. But God is not going to punish you with the same severity if you stole 25 cents rather than 25 million. He is all-just and will punish you accordingly.

I assume by “death” you mean spiritual death? As I said above, stealing 25 cents isn’t going to send you to hell. Neither is slapping a sibling or uttering one curse word. Things like this. You cannot look me straight in the eye and tell me that for these small offenses, we are going to hell. If you can do this, then please find me a verse in the Bible that says this.

You continue to remain silent on the 1 John 5:16-17 verse. Please, I would like an answer.

God does punish us on account of the sin of Adam. So I take it you don’t believe in original sin? Straight out of the Baltimore Catechism: “Is God unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam?”: No, God is not unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam, because original sin does not take away from us anything to which we have a strict right as human beings, but only the free gifts which God in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned." So are you saying God is not being just?

Isn’t that really at the heart of the matter? That OSAS beleivers don’t trust in God’s mercy? They don’t trust themselves, and they don’t trust God. They want a final answer as soon as they decide they’re in the game. It’s like they won’t play monopoly (a 2-3 hour game) unless the rules don’t apply to them. Hotels or penniless, they declare themselves winners.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for the inside scoop, Anna Scott.

You are welcome, kalt.

No Protestant comments on my post.

Anna

 

[Carlan]

the osas (every version of that belief) falls apart on examination, and yet they still believe. They are trusting in their ministers who teach them osas more than they trust what god teaches them in the bible. And, of course, they reject tradition, in contradiction of the bible.

Why do they call their churches “a bible church”, when it’s so obvious that some of their beliefs contradict the bible?

Imo, based on what osas believers have said on this forum, osas is believed out of fear. They’re fearful to trust in god. They have to have the final answer today. God doesn’t give them an answer–he will pass judgement when they die–so they make themselves judges. They judge themselves saved. They say that they put their faith in god, yet they are too fearful to believe that god will judge them at their death. They are afraid that god will not be merciful, so they judge themselves. They judge that because they are in a state of grace at one moment in time, they are “saved”. It’s all about frear, not trust. They know what the bible says, but insist that those things (deadly sin, for example) somehow don’t count. They ignore what makes them afraid and judge themselves saved.

Where in the bible does it say that we are our own judges?!

They say that they give themselves totally to god, yet they can’t relinquish control. They insist that they are the judge of their own salvation. Only god can save or condemn. He doesn’t condemn before we die. We have to persevere to the end. It’s in the bible, but they ignore those pesky parts and construct a system that is less fearful to them. Fear comes from mistrust.

continued,

 

[Carlan]

kalt,

You make very good points here. Having come from the Baptist Church, I know the passages of Scripture used to justify the OSAS doctrine.

Fear is truly an element on many levels. First, many are presented the “plan of salvation” in the context of a question: If you die tonight, do you know if you will go to heaven or hell?

In recent years, some evangelistic efforts steer away from the threat of hell, and point to the reward of heaven. Either way, it is a narcissistic approach to salvation. Accept Christ to avoid the horrors of Hell; or accept Christ to receive the reward of Heaven–not that we deserve any kind of reward, since there is nothing good or Holy or righteous within us that does not come from Christ.

When you are indoctrinated within this OSAS framework, you don’t realize the narcissism involved in this line of thinking. I think the OSAS doctrine must surely have been born through the unbearable fear of Hell. In our humanity, we want certainty. We want certainty so badly, we actually demand it of God. Of course, we have no right to demand any such thing from God.

Christ did atone for our sins; and by God’s grace we are reconciled to God through the atonement of Christ. Yet, salvation is not an “event,” which gives us a free pass to Heaven, regardless of the behavior that follows our acceptance of Christ as Messiah and Son of God.

Salvation is a journey with many twists and turns, as we are refined through Christ. Indeed, we would not be able to endure to the end without God’s grace. However, we are given free will to either accept that grace or reject that grace. We are given free will in our choices regarding sin, repentance, turning from sin, and keeping the commandments of Christ–which include loving God with all our heart, mind, and soul; and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Again, these things are accomplished through submission to Christ, and according to the measure of grace God bestows upon us.

Salvation is not contained in a few passages of Scripture carefully selected and grouped together to support one’s preconceived beliefs.

Salvation is revealed from Genesis forward. We must look to the Bible as a whole in order to even begin to understand the elements necessary for salvation. Still, we are limited in our human understanding, and fall into error by imposing finite limits on an infinite God.

I trust in God’s mercy and righteous judgment. I pray that I will have the strength to serve Him and endure to the end. I pray for God’s mercy, when I face Him on the day of judgment.

Thank you very much for both wonderful post, I shall keep them in my notes . May I quote you both? Love and peace, Carlan

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you very much for both wonderful post, I shall keep them in my notes . May I quote you both? Love and peace, Carlan

Carlan,

You are free to quote me. I am curious, though; other than the forums, where would you use the quote of my post?

Anna

 

[jericho777]

Yes I believe in all that Christ has done for me,
I believe, because I believe and accept him I am given the sanctifying grace to grow in the holiness our Father in heaven requires of us. This growth in becoming a new person is a life long process of growing into the likeness of Jesus. If we persevere in that growth to the end our hope will be realized, if along the way we fall into unrepentant sin , turn away from God we suffer the consequence. We have a merciful Father, he is there to restore us in his love if in our sin we turn back to him with sorrow, Remember, the younger son, the sorrowful one?

You use the word ‘assurance’, it can mean much…being sure and safe,confident of mind, easy freedom from doubt or uncertainty, or, excessive self confidence, brashness, or presumption ,sooooooooooo:shrug:Lets pray for the grace to keep what he commands of us and persevere to the end. God’s peace and grace to youCarlan

I believe the same only others on here will disagree with that position.

 

[kalt]

Carlan,

You are free to quote me. I am curious, though; other than the forums, where would you use the quote of my post?

Anna

I was kind of thinking the same thing.

Of course you’re free to repeat anything I’ve said, Carlan. I’m not an expert, though, and I just post my opinion based on what I know. Thank you for the compliment.

 

[kalt]

I believe the same only others on here will disagree with that position.

I haven’t seen anyone here who disagrees with Carlan. If you think that I disagree with him, you misundestand my position on the subject.

And still no discussion of the sins that are deadly and those that aren’t?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Carlan,

You are free to quote me. I am curious, though; other than the forums, where would you use the quote of my post?

Anna

I was kind of thinking the same thing.

Of course you’re free to repeat anything I’ve said, Carlan. I’m not an expert, though, and I just post my opinion based on what I know. Thank you for the compliment.

Kalt,

I’m no expert either. I can only draw from personal experience. But, if someone wants to quote me, no problem.

Anna

 

[Carlan]

Carlan,

You are free to quote me. I am curious, though; other than the forums, where would you use the quote of my post?

Anna

Actually Anna, I have spent of much of my life traveling with my husband , a navy man. I have never encountered ,anywhere, as many Baptist neighbors and Churches in one place as I have here in the middle of the these beautiful Ozarks, folks call it the Bible belt.
They are wonderful neighbors and I love them but there is always one or two in the lot, who can’t help but wonder about a Catholic. It is good for me to understand them well. Your posts help me to do that. I promise not to use names if I ever get brave enough to call any of them out on something God bless you,and I do enjoy your posts. Carlan

 

[Anna_Scott]

God predestines all people Rom 9:11 He chose Jacob before he was even born and hated Esau berfore he was even born. V17 God hardened Pharaoh’s heart that He might show the world His power amd proclaim His name.

V 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Jericho, I started a Thread in Sept. 2009 entitled, “Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?” We discussed the predestination issue at length. I have no desire to “resurrect” the Thread, but here is the link, if you wish to look through the posts:

Reformed Theology, which includes Monergism, draws heavily on the roots of the Protestant Reformation.

Definitions of Monergism: Link: monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

These are quotes from Monergism.com

I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector, and I do not accept the assertions of Monergism. I do not believe Monergism is supported by Scripture.

**So, my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Sector, what do you believe about salvation?

Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?

Do you believe God is not** an "equal opportunity Savior?

Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?

Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

Is our acceptance of Christ not a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?

Do you believe God has always shown more mercy to one people than to another?

Do you believe God’s pre-temporal choice to save one person over another is not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will?

Are the “elect” chosen by God, based upon God’s “sovereign good pleasure,” alone?

Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

I welcome all comments from all Faiths. Please feel free to answer the questions of your choosing.

Anna

Agreed, in Scripture, we do see God “hardening hearts.” We also find what I call the “until” factor, as demonstrated in Romans, Chapter 11. (Best to read this passage in context. Emphasis is mine.)

Romans 11: 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

In this case, the “partial hardening” is not said to be eternal. The hardening “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” tells us there is more to the story.

God is far greater than our human ability to understand. We have no right to demand certainty regarding salvation; and certainly no right to speak judgment upon anyone.

Within the framework of your beliefs regarding predestination; how do you know you (or any of us) were not predestined to be one who has “eyes that do not see” and “ears that do not hear”?

If seems very clear that a key factor in the “hardening of hearts,” and affecting one’s ability to “see” and “hear,” is the fact that those in these categories do not realize their hearts are hardened, nor do they realized they cannot “see” or “hear” God’s truth.

Ironically, your argument for predestination adds less certainty to the salvation you claim as certain and assured.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

God predestines all people Rom 9:11 He chose Jacob before he was even born and hated Esau berfore he was even born. V17 God hardened Pharaoh’s heart that He might show the world His power amd proclaim His name.

V 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Actually Anna, I have spent of much of my life traveling with my husband , a navy man. I have never encountered ,anywhere, as many Baptist neighbors and Churches in one place as I have here in the middle of the these beautiful Ozarks, folks call it the Bible belt.
They are wonderful neighbors and I love them but there is always one or two in the lot, who can’t help but wonder about a Catholic. It is good for me to understand them well. Your posts help me to do that. I promise not to use names if I ever get brave enough to call any of them out on something God bless you,and I do enjoy your posts. Carlan

Carlan,

I feel for you.

I will warn you that many Baptists do not believe Catholics are Christians—a belief that is often preached from Baptist pulpits–along with many misconceptions about the Catholic faith.

May God bless you and protect you,
Anna

 

[Masters_Servant]

Congrats for the most intelligent thread I have seen here today. I really hate the word fact being tossed around the way it is here, when most if not all of the time it’s a naked assertion.

Now that I let that out of my system, I suppose you are as accurate as can be if you see this from the point of view of a christian. No one knows, and no one can but Jesus if you believe. I’m not sure even what use it would be to think you had it locked in, because what would be motivating you to strive for this elusive holiness then? Isn’t thinking you are locked in like thinking you no longer need to continue to strive for holiness? I don’t know.
It’s like expecting a teenager to keep going to school when he has every diploma from the best schools in his top desk drawer at home. Think he still would?

Strawberry,

You nor any “professing” Christian can be assured of anything except death and taxes. Why do Christians believe the word of God is Truth? It is the only book in the world that actually and really transforms lives to be more like the image of the Creator. It cannot be understood nor believed without God indwelling a person; this is why you and others make silly statements that no one can know because from your point of view and from God’s you are correct just as god has said in His word.

If you want absolute proof of the authenticity of the Bible and can be summed up in a single word. Israel.

That tiny nation should not exist as many greater and mightier nation have come and gone, but God in His providence promised in his word to protect Israel and He has. Find me an Edomite, Sodomite, Geserite or a Hititie or any other powerful nation that has passed and no longer exists.

All men will one day know the veracity of Scripture; for most it will be too late and on your current path you will also fall into the majority. In fact the longer you stay in these forums and are exposed to the truth the more accountable you become and if you do not repent and come to the Lord, you will reap greater judgment on yourself according to the word of God.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Strawberry,

You nor any “professing” Christian can be assured of anything except death and taxes. Why do Christians believe the word of God is Truth? It is the only book in the world that actually and really transforms lives to be more like the image of the Creator.

His Truth cannot be understood nor believed by unregenerate-Christ rejecting people without God indwelling a person; this is why you and others make silly statements that “no one can know” because from your point of view and from God’s you are correct that you may not know; just as God has said in His word.

If you want absolute proof of the authenticity of the Bible and can be summed up in a single word. Israel.

That tiny nation should not exist as many greater and mightier nations have come and gone, but God in His providence promised in His word to protect Israel and He has. Find me an Edomite, Sodomite, Geserite or a Hititie or any other powerful nation or people that has passed and no longer exists.

All men will one day know the veracity of Scripture; for most it will be too late and on your current path you will also fall into the majority. In fact the longer you stay in these forums and are exposed to the truth the more accountable you become to God and if you do not repent and come to the Lord, you will reap greater judgment on yourself according to the word of God.

That is the bad news, the good news is God provided a way of escape from the pending judgment and that way is through His Son, the Lord Jesus.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Strawberry,

You nor any “professing” Christian can be assured of anything except death and taxes. Why do Christians believe the word of God is Truth? It is the only book in the world that actually and really transforms lives to be more like the image of the Creator. It cannot be understood nor believed without God indwelling a person; this is why you and others make silly statements that no one can know because from your point of view and from God’s you are correct just as god has said in His word.

If you want absolute proof of the authenticity of the Bible and can be summed up in a single word. Israel.

That tiny nation should not exist as many greater and mightier nation have come and gone, but God in His providence promised in his word to protect Israel and He has. Find me an Edomite, Sodomite, Geserite or a Hititie or any other powerful nation that has passed and no longer exists.

All men will one day know the veracity of Scripture; for most it will be too late and on your current path you will also fall into the majority. In fact the longer you stay in these forums and are exposed to the truth the more accountable you become and if you do not repent and come to the Lord, you will reap greater judgment on yourself according to the word of God.

Masters Servant,

What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry? You have no such right.

I urge you to read the CAF Charity Guidelines. You are not allowed to proselytize or attack someone’s character.

Anna

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters Servant,

What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry? You have no such right.

I urge you to read the CAF Charity Guidelines. You are not allowed to proselytize or attack someone’s character.

Anna

Anna,

Are you also in this group? I am sticking to the topic, please do the same according to the rules. He is a professed atheist and I was responding to a post he/she made on page 1; so before you make accusations; please get the facts.

Also, please demonstrate from the word of God where I did not speak the truth according to His word. good luck Seems you would rather someone come under His wrath rather than speaking the truth; but that is between you and God. Furthermore, there is no personal attack on his character; just pointing out the fact that he is correct that no one can know and I state the reason for that truth which is that people cannot understand nor believe without God, which is what the Bible says.

Thank you. If you have a side bar, then send an email and I will be happy to address your concern.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Masters Servant,

What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry? You have no such right.

I urge you to read the CAF Charity Guidelines. You are not allowed to proselytize or attack someone’s character.

Anna

Anna,

Are you also in this group? I am sticking to the topic, please do the same according to the rules. He is a professed atheist and I was responding to a post he/she made on page 1; so before you make accusations; please get the facts.

Also, please demonstrate from the word of god where i did not speak the truth according to His word. good luck

Thanks you. If you have a side bar, then send an email.

You went off topic by passing judgment on Strawberry. I know Strawberry. She is sincerely searching. I pray that she will find her way to Christ. Your human judgment is a hindrance, not a help.

You will not last very long on these forums, if you disregard the Charity Guidelines. Please read them.

I asked, “What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry?” You still have not answered the question.

Anna

 

[Masters_Servant]

You went off topic by passing judgment on Strawberry. I know Strawberry. She is sincerely searching. I pray that she will find her way to Christ. Your human judgment is a hindrance, not a help.

You will not last very long on these forums, if you disregard the Charity Guidelines. Please read them.

I asked, “What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry?” You still have not answered the question.

Anna

Thanks for the lecture; if you know Strawberry so well, then why do you withhold the truth or falsely accuse others of character assassination? You need to go read the rules. Your lack of charity is demonstrated by your own words because you refused to read what was actually said, which in falsely accusing me of personal attack when none exists; this is true passing of judgment and you make yourself to be a hypocrite.

If I don’t last long here, then i leave knowing I do not compromise the Truth where you stay and compromise; who will God look more favorably on?

Have a great day and remember it is God who transforms lives, not Anna.