Do we know for a fact we are saved

[Anna_Scott]

Masters Servant,

What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry? You have no such right.

I urge you to read the CAF Charity Guidelines. You are not allowed to proselytize or attack someone’s character.

Anna

Thanks for the lecture; if you know Strawberry so well, then why do you withhold the truth or falsely accuse others of character assassination? You need to go read the rules. Your lack of charity is demonstrated by your own words because you refused to read what was actually said, which in falsely accusing me of personal attack when none exists; this is true passing of judgment and you make yourself to be a hypocrite.

If I don’t last long here, then i leave knowing I do not compromise the Truth where you stay and compromise; who will God look more favorably on?

Have a great day and remember it is God who transforms lives, not Anna.

You still haven’t answered the question: What gives you the right to proclaim this judgment upon Strawberry?

Anna

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam
Congrats for the most intelligent thread I have seen here today. I really hate the word fact being tossed around the way it is here, when most if not all of the time it’s a naked assertion.

Now that I let that out of my system, I suppose you are as accurate as can be if you see this from the point of view of a christian. No one knows, and no one can but Jesus if you believe. I’m not sure even what use it would be to think you had it locked in, because what would be motivating you to strive for this elusive holiness then? Isn’t thinking you are locked in like thinking you no longer need to continue to strive for holiness? I don’t know.
It’s like expecting a teenager to keep going to school when he has every diploma from the best schools in his top desk drawer at home. Think he still would?

Strawberry,

You nor any “professing” Christian can be assured of anything except death and taxes. Why do Christians believe the word of God is Truth? It is the only book in the world that actually and really transforms lives to be more like the image of the Creator. It cannot be understood nor believed without God indwelling a person; this is why you and others make silly statements that no one can know because from your point of view and from God’s you are correct just as god has said in His word.

If you want absolute proof of the authenticity of the Bible and can be summed up in a single word. Israel.

That tiny nation should not exist as many greater and mightier nation have come and gone, but God in His providence promised in his word to protect Israel and He has. Find me an Edomite, Sodomite, Geserite or a Hititie or any other powerful nation that has passed and no longer exists.

All men will one day know the veracity of Scripture; for most it will be too late and on your current path you will also fall into the majority. In fact the longer you stay in these forums and are exposed to the truth the more accountable you become and if you do not repent and come to the Lord, you will reap greater judgment on yourself according to the word of God.

Masters Servant Hello, it seems to me that the OP is questioning the false doctrine of OSAS.

I can understand the Questioning in Strawberry’s post.
Why do you call her out and not the others ?
Peace,Carlan

 

[Anna_Scott]

Masters Servant Hello, it seems to me that the OP is questioning the false doctrine of OSAS.

I can understand the Questioning in Strawberry’s post.
Why do you call her out and not the others ?
Peace,Carlan

Very good question, Carlan.

Anna

 

[kalt]

Strawberry,

You nor any “professing” Christian can be assured of anything except death and taxes. Why do Christians believe the word of God is Truth? It is the only book in the world that actually and really transforms lives to be more like the image of the Creator. It cannot be understood nor believed without God indwelling a person; this is why you and others make silly statements that no one can know because from your point of view and from God’s you are correct just as god has said in His word.

If you want absolute proof of the authenticity of the Bible and can be summed up in a single word. Israel.

That tiny nation should not exist as many greater and mightier nation have come and gone, but God in His providence promised in his word to protect Israel and He has. Find me an Edomite, Sodomite, Geserite or a Hititie or any other powerful nation that has passed and no longer exists.

All men will one day know the veracity of Scripture; for most it will be too late and on your current path you will also fall into the majority. In fact the longer you stay in these forums and are exposed to the truth the more accountable you become and if you do not repent and come to the Lord, you will reap greater judgment on yourself according to the word of God.

We don’t pretend to know who will or won’t be saved. And we don’t speculate about anyone’s current standing with God. God is the judge, not us.

I understand your desire to convert someone you consider lost. You crossed the line when, rather than explaining your views on salvation, you speculated about another’s standing at the moment and used scare tactics by threatening eternal damnation.

As I said, Catholics don’t speculate about anyone’s salvation, and we certainly don’t threaten non-Christians with Hell!

Only God knows who is saved and who is damned. Who is any person to speculate about another–and with such certainty? Maybe it is the speculator types who will be surprised when those they are certain will be damned pass them on the way to the pearly gates.

There are little icons here that perfectly represent the OSAS and the I-know-who-isn’t-going-to-Heaven types when they realize (and are quite annoyed, I bet) that Heaven is populated (“polluted” in their holier-than-thou opinion) with the people they were sure were headed to Hell. You know - Catholics, Muslims, Communists, fans of the other team, drug addicts, alcoholics, and so many more undesireables. I want to be in heaven just to see the looks on their faces. Here they are. followed by and finally reaching , before they admit that they aren’t God and couldn’t have known who was and wasn’t saved. Then, when they finally get it, they can relax, give up fear, and love their neighbors (rather than declare them damned). Then they will finally feel the Joy peace of God and will begin to greet their neigbors like this.

On a serious note - I wonder if this is the sin that most of us will spend more “time” in Purgatory over - lack of charity and love toward others. I think it is.

 

[BrianH]

I do not have a problem with the post. I actually find the Catholic reactions, including the statement about Muslims, odd…but hey thats just me. If anyone has a presumptious post, it is the one right above me.
:shrug:

 

[mangy_dog]

Phil 4:3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Paul is telling these believers they are already saved because their names are written in the Book of Life. Is Paul being presumptuous? Is there is a lack of humility and an excess of arrogance to presume of such a thing?

Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 17:8 …The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Your name is written in the book of life before you were even born. You have been elected by God for salvation apart from your self. (see Rom 9)

Phil 2:12-13 continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Please read the next verse 13 for it is God who is working through the believer unto salvation it is not the work of the believer.

Paul is not telling them that they are already saved. You are the one that is assuming this.

The “already saved” position is one of those things that aims at undermining the sacrament of Confession to a priest. It also allows for the protestant christian to de-emphasize the crucifix in favor of the cross. It also attacks the un-bloody sacrifice of the Eucharist.

Paul would not do such a thing…he was one of the original catholics who remained a catholic to his death.

 

[kalt]

I do not have a problem with the post. I actually find the Catholic reactions, including the statement about Muslims, odd…but hey thats just me. If anyone has a presumptious post, it is the one right above me.
:shrug:

Were you referring to my “statement” about Muslims. Be sure that what was represented - that Catholics and Muslims are non-Christians who are headed to eternal damnation - is a OSAS position, not a Catholic position. But maybe you think it’s “odd” because you’re sure that Muslims and Catholics are non-Christians that are headed to Hell - because you actually agree with that point of view. Do you find it odd that Catholics don’t presume to know who is saved or to damn people to Hell?

Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church for Catholic teaching on salvation and Christians and non-Christians.

 

[SteveVH]

Were you referring to my “statement” about Muslims. Be sure that what was represented - that Catholics and Muslims are non-Christians who are headed to eternal damnation - is a OSAS position, not a Catholic position. But maybe you think it’s “odd” because you’re sure that Muslims and Catholics are non-Christians that are headed to Hell - because you actually agree with that point of view. Do you find it odd that Catholics don’t presume to know who is saved or to damn people to Hell?

Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church for Catholic teaching on salvation and Christians and non-Christians.

I would make only one correction to your statement and that is that the Catholic Church does proclaim some people as “saved” and that would be the canonized Saints. Even this, however, occurs AFTER death. The Church says nothing about assured salvation for anyone now living. It also has never claimed that any particular person (Stalin, Hitler, Nero, etc.) is definately in Hell. We depend completely on the mercy of God.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I would make only one correction to your statement and that is that the Catholic Church does proclaim some people as “saved” and that would be the canonized Saints. Even this, however, occurs AFTER death. The Church says nothing about assured salvation for anyone now living. It also has never claimed that any particular person (Stalin, Hitler, Nero, etc.) is definately in Hell. We depend completely on the mercy of God.

SteveVH:

I appreciate this information. I was going to ask about the Saints. How does the Church know that these saints are saved? Curious.

Anna

 

[BrianH]

Were you referring to my “statement” about Muslims. Be sure that what was represented - that Catholics and Muslims are non-Christians who are headed to eternal damnation - is a OSAS position, not a Catholic position. But maybe you think it’s “odd” because you’re sure that Muslims and Catholics are non-Christians that are headed to Hell - because you actually agree with that point of view. Do you find it odd that Catholics don’t presume to know who is saved or to damn people to Hell?

Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church for Catholic teaching on salvation and Christians and non-Christians.

You know…I read these boards enough to remember what people say and post and essentially the viewpoint of probably the top 50-100 posters. If I dont remember, I usually do a quick search of their posts to get a gist of where they are coming from. Its a shame I am not afforded the same basic courtesy by you kalt. But that would require reading and remembering what people say.
I am not OSAS. Once again, read the stupid title next to my name and you would know better.
I have never damned a Catholic to hell.
I DO not see how Jesus can be taken seriously and think that Muslims are going to heaven. But thats just me. I am not a pluralist.

 

[Carlan]

I do not have a problem with the post. I actually find the Catholic reactions, including the statement about Muslims, odd…but hey thats just me. If anyone has a presumptious post, it is the one right above me.
:shrug:

What’s so odd Brian? Hope the following helps. Carlan

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
-------------------------------------------------------------
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims:
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

 842  The Church's bond with non-Christians religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered to gether in the holy city …

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved.
Thus the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.
CCC
Carlan

 

[BrianH]

Honestly, it helps but not in the way you might think. God bless.

 

[kalt]

You know…I read these boards enough to remember what people say and post and essentially the viewpoint of probably the top 50-100 posters. If I dont remember, I usually do a quick search of their posts to get a gist of where they are coming from. Its a shame I am not afforded the same basic courtesy by you kalt. But that would require reading and remembering what people say.
I am not OSAS. Once again, read the stupid title next to my name and you would know better.
I have never damned a Catholic to hell.
I DO not see how Jesus can be taken seriously and think that Muslims are going to heaven. But thats just me. I am not a pluralist.

I guess your previous posts didn’t make enough of an impression on me that I remembered anything you said. I don’t remember seeing your name before. It’s possible that I’ve responded to earlier posts, but nothing stands out. This probably only means that your posts have been measured. I’m likely to remember only extreme or odd members and posts.

So, I stand corrected. You damn Muslims and other non-Chrisitans to Hell, but are lenient toward Catholics.

You are a more merciful judge than I guessed.

I think I’ll remember you now.

 

[Carlan]

Honestly, it helps but not in the way you might think. God bless.

Brian, May I ask to whom you are directing your comment, thank Carlan

 

[BrianH]

I cannot damn anyone to hell. But I sure the heck am not going to say all other religions go to heaven. Or is it just some of the “good” ones. Someone might as well be a Unitarian if that is the case IN MY OPINION.

 

[BrianH]

Brian, May I ask to whom you are directing your comment, thank Carlan

You. I appreciate and understand your view.

 

[Carlan]

Honestly, it helps but not in the way you might think. God bless.

Bri, may I ask which way that may be? Carlan

 

[kalt]

I cannot damn anyone to hell. But I sure the heck am not going to say all other religions go to heaven. Or is it just some of the “good” ones. Someone might as well be a Unitarian if that is the case IN MY OPINION.

Another strawman argument. The Catholic Church doesn’t say who is and isn’t going to Heaven. The Church proclaims the Gospel. The Church doesn’t limit God, and humbly admits that others (non-Christians) may be saved by ways known only to God. The Church doesn’t presume to know who is and isn’t going to Heaven, even those inside the Church.

Your claim here is that the CC says that “all other religions go to heaven.” The CC doesn’t even say that all Catholics are going to Heaven. It doesn’t say that all Catholics** aren’t** going to Heaven. It doesn’t say that **this **Catholic is going to Heaven, or that that one isn’t.

Bringing this back on topic -

God is* the* judge, and He makes judgement at death, not before.

If God doesn’t judge us before death, how can mere mortals decide who is and who isn’t saved?

You say that you don’t damn others, yet you say that you know who isn’t going to Heaven. That sounds like an arrogant attitude.

 

[tweetymom]

Indeed…but here’s an interesting “twist” that you may not agree with: “Physical death” is not [real] Death, but a prototype of [real] Death. You’re either “saved” [have life] or you’re “dead”…Death is not a moment when “judgement (salvation/condemnation) is determined”. [Real] Death is condemnation.

What do you think about this?

I think you are 100% right. Before I accepted Jesus in my heart I was dead in my sins.

 

[BrianH]

Another strawman argument. The Catholic Church doesn’t say who is and isn’t going to Heaven. The Church proclaims the Gospel. The Church doesn’t limit God, and humbly admits that others (non-Christians) may be saved by ways known only to God. The Church doesn’t presume to know who is and isn’t going to Heaven, even those inside the Church.

Your claim here is that the CC says that “all other religions go to heaven.” The CC doesn’t even say that all Catholics are going to Heaven. It doesn’t say that all Catholics** aren’t** going to Heaven. It doesn’t say that **this **Catholic is going to Heaven, or that that one isn’t.

Bringing this back on topic -

God is* the* judge, and He makes judgement at death, not before.

If God doesn’t judge us before death, how can mere mortals decide who is and who isn’t saved?

You say that you don’t damn others, yet you say that you know who isn’t going to Heaven. That sounds like an arrogant attitude.

I have never found a single solitary statement in scripture that says ANYTHING positive about another religion outside of Judaism and Christianity. On the other hand, there exists hundreds of warnings about false religions in one way or another. What part of the Gospel states that salvation is possible outside of the one True God or Christ? Point me to some scriptures or even Ante-Nicene writings that show that to be the case. Heck, as I recall they are more strident in this than I am.
Now remember, you are the one who said that Muslims were in heaven. That was your statement. You said heaven was populated with Catholics and Muslims. So you must know more than you are letting on to or did you not really mean that. You said that people would “realize” that. You seem very confident about who is in heaven. So why am I arrogant again? Because you started this by saying that heaven was populated with them.