Do we know for a fact we are saved

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What about Muslims who hate Christians and Jews? If they never get a chance to repent then how can they be saved?

In order to receive salvation, a Muslim must have faith AND works… If the works are bad then how can they be saved?

The only way a Muslim can be saved is by accepting the true faith of the Church before actual death… Unless they have never heard of Jesus… Then they have a chance… But they must have received “miraculous” knowledge, gifts, etc, from God… (miracles)

We are all judged by our works!
And let’s not forget about Christians who hate Muslims?
People forget that that goes two ways. 👍

There are plenty of people who’ve heard of Christ, but they’ve been prejudiced against the faith or have been taught lies about Him. I read that Muhammed believed that the Trinity was 3 separate gods, including Mary. This is not confirmed, but if that’s what he was taught, it’s no wonder he thought Christianity was wrong. He thought that Christians were wrong, so he started his own Church. We have Christians doing the same thing today–there seems to be a new denomination or non-denomination everytime you turn around.). So many people post here about how they disagree with the CC on this or that doctrine, and they don’t know what the CC doctrine actually is. They’ve been taught false things about the CC and have been prejudiced against it in many cases. As with Muslims who are taught that Christianity corrupted the faith (and Judaism, too) and that Islam restored it, many non-Catholic Christians are taught that the Catholic Church corrupted the faith and that the Reformation restored the faith to its roots. It’s through no fault of their own that they aren’t part of the CC.

And what of the former Catholic who leaves the Church to join another Christian Church? Is this through their own fault? With the state of CCD in the US, maybe not. I wonder how many who leave really know what they’re leaving. I’ve heard former Catholics (irl) say that they’ve left the church over this and that, but this and that aren’t true Catholic teachings. It’s sad, really.

We have no idea who will be saved. We leave that to God.
 
Yet even demons believe (and know whom God is) and tremble in fear…yet the Muslim does not know God in the same as a christain does.So the question is how can one reject that which they do not know?
Then what of the Jews. They believe in God, but not that Jesus is God. It’s clear that the 3 faiths have different beliefs about the same god.
 
What about Muslims who hate Christians and Jews? If they never get a chance to repent then how can they be saved?

In order to receive salvation, a Muslim must have faith AND works… If the works are bad then how can they be saved?

The only way a Muslim can be saved is by accepting the true faith of the Church before actual death… Unless they have never heard of Jesus… Then they have a chance… But they must have received “miraculous” knowledge, gifts, etc, from God… (miracles)

We are all judged by our works!
I am talking about those, who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who never the less seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their own actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience- those too may achieve eternal savation.CCC
Peace, Carlan
 
And let’s not forget about Christians who hate Muslims?
People forget that that goes two ways. 👍

There are plenty of people who’ve heard of Christ, but they’ve been prejudiced against the faith or have been taught lies about Him. I read that Muhammed believed that the Trinity was 3 separate gods, including Mary. This is not confirmed, but if that’s what he was taught, it’s no wonder he thought Christianity was wrong. He thought that Christians were wrong, so he started his own Church. We have Christians doing the same thing today–there seems to be a new denomination or non-denomination everytime you turn around.). So many people post here about how they disagree with the CC on this or that doctrine, and they don’t know what the CC doctrine actually is. They’ve been taught false things about the CC and have been prejudiced against it in many cases. As with Muslims who are taught that Christianity corrupted the faith (and Judaism, too) and that Islam restored it, many non-Catholic Christians are taught that the Catholic Church corrupted the faith and that the Reformation restored the faith to its roots. It’s through no fault of their own that they aren’t part of the CC.

And what of the former Catholic who leaves the Church to join another Christian Church? Is this through their own fault? With the state of CCD in the US, maybe not. I wonder how many who leave really know what they’re leaving. I’ve heard former Catholics (irl) say that they’ve left the church over this and that, but this and that aren’t true Catholic teachings. It’s sad, really.

We have no idea who will be saved. We leave that to God.
I sort of disagree.

What is “saved”?

newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm
“Sacred Scripture uses the word “salvation” mainly in the sense of **liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin **and its consequences.”

If saved is salvation, then that is only given to those who are lilberated from original sin. So one needs to be baptized to be saved! However it is our good works that earn us a place in heaven… And the gifts, talents, and knowledge of “good works” come from God…God gives these gifts to whomever He chooses. 🙂

So if the question is: Can a Muslim go to heaven, I say possibly yes by good works given to him by God.

But if the question is: Can a Muslilm be saved from sin… I say not without a miracle.
 
I sort of disagree.

What is “saved”?

If saved is salvation, then that is only given to those who are lilberated from original sin. So one needs to be baptized to be saved! However it is our good works that earn us a place in heaven… And the gifts, talents, and knowledge of “good works” come from God…God gives these gifts to whomever He chooses. 🙂

So if the question is: Can a Muslim go to heaven, I say possibly yes by good works given to him by God.

But if the question is: Can a Muslilm be saved from sin… I say no.
Remember, there is such a thing as Baptism of desire. In other words, if one had known the importance of Christian Baptism, would he have desired it? Only God knows the answer but it is valid according to Catholic teaching.
 
I sort of disagree.

What is “saved”?

newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm
“Sacred Scripture uses the word “salvation” mainly in the sense of **liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin **and its consequences.”

If saved is salvation, then that is only given to those who are lilberated from original sin. So one needs to be baptized to be saved! However it is our good works that earn us a place in heaven… And the gifts, talents, and knowledge of “good works” come from God…God gives these gifts to whomever He chooses. 🙂

So if the question is: Can a Muslim go to heaven, I say possibly yes by good works given to him by God.

But if the question is: Can a Muslilm be saved from sin… I say not without a miracle.
Right. We aren’t saying that all Muslims are saved. We’re only saying that they worship the same God and they may be saved. I think that’s all we can say about individual. Salvation is offered, not guaranteed, even to those who are baptised. 👍
 
Remember, there is such a thing as Baptism of desire. In other words, if one had known the importance of Christian Baptism, would he have desired it? Only God knows the answer but it is valid according to Catholic teaching.
I think it’s about a human being’s response to God. Who’s to say that even those who don’t know Christ have not responded to the human desire for God? God calls all. He institued Baptism to save. Who knows who has responded to God’s call, though they haven’t been exposed to the Gospel?

God created everyone in His image, including those who aren’t Christian. I think all humans have an inborn sense of God. Even those who live in primitive situations seek God. Their religions aren’t right, but who is to say that some of these people don’t seek God, though they are limited by the circumstances they were born into.

This isn’t to say that any “way” to God is as good as the next. It’s only to say that God is the judge, not us, and that we don’t control God.
 
Remember, there is such a thing as Baptism of desire. In other words, if one had known the importance of Christian Baptism, would he have desired it? Only God knows the answer but it is valid according to Catholic teaching.
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
“The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin.”

So in other words, one who sees/seeks the absolution of sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit (which was given to us by Jesus), can become baptized through “desire”. That is a long stretch from: “if one had known the importance of Christian Baptism, would he have desired it”

Still, I think that it is important to reinforce the truth that every living person must seek Gods healing gift of salvation through baptism… Whether its painful or not, we must not abandon the truth.

Just because someone worships the same God as we do, dosent mean they are included in the new covenant. They must accept the Holy Spirit, they must accept the truth through Jesus.

We do no service, works, or charity to anyone by sugar-coating these facts… And we have nothing to fear since we have the Holy Spirit. 🙂

The truth is always best.

However, I think we really ARE on the same page… 😉 🙂
 
I am talking about those, who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who never the less seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their own actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience- those too may achieve eternal savation.CCC
Peace, Carlan
O.K. We definantly are on the same page then. 😉

Sorry for the confusion. 😊
 
Right. We aren’t saying that all Muslims are saved. We’re only saying that they worship the same God and they may be saved. I think that’s all we can say about individual. Salvation is offered, not guaranteed, even to those who are baptised. 👍
O.K. Kalt. We really are in agreement. 🙂

You’re just more prudent than me. 😃
 
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
“The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin.”

So in other words, one who sees/seeks the absolution of sins, by the power of the Holy Spirit (which was given to us by Jesus), can become baptized through “desire”. That is a long stretch from: “if one had known the importance of Christian Baptism, would he have desired it”

Still, I think that it is important to reinforce the truth that every living person must seek Gods healing gift of salvation through baptism… Whether its painful or not, we must not abandon the truth.

Just because someone worships the same God as we do, dosent mean they are included in the new covenant. They must accept the Holy Spirit, they must accept the truth through Jesus.

We do no service, works, or charity to anyone by sugar-coating these facts… And we have nothing to fear since we have the Holy Spirit. 🙂

The truth is always best.
I’ll admit that this probably wasn’t the best explanation of “Baptism of Desire” but my point remains. One who has perfect contrition of heart, but may have never known of Baptism, implicitly has Baptism of Desire. Had he known, he would have desired it. Those with perfect contrition do desire it by implication. That is why I say “only God knows” in those circumstances because He is the only one who can read our hearts. I am not saying then, don’t worry about getting baptized and therefore somehow “sugar coating” the truth. Performing “good works” is not going to save you unless there is contrition for sins also. That is the basis for my response. You stated that one has to be baptized in order to be saved. I was only trying to show that there is a way (for those who have no way of knowing) without formal baptism, not that we should rely on it and therefore deny the sacrament.
 
I’ll admit that this probably wasn’t the best explanation of “Baptism of Desire” but my point remains. One who has perfect contrition of heart, but may have never known of Baptism, implicitly has Baptism of Desire. Had he known, he would have desired it. Those with perfect contrition do desire it by implication. That is why I say “only God knows” in those circumstances because He is the only one who can read our hearts. I am not saying then, don’t worry about getting baptized and therefore somehow “sugar coating” the truth. Performing “good works” is not going to save you unless there is contrition for sins also. That is the basis for my response. You stated that one has to be baptized in order to be saved. I was only trying to show that there is a way (for those who have no way of knowing) without formal baptism, not that we should rely on it and therefore deny the sacrament.
Thanks for clearing that up… I agree with you completely. 🙂 👍

(by the way, thanks for teaching me about “baptism of desire”!)
 
I think it’s about a human being’s response to God. Who’s to say that even those who don’t know Christ have not responded to the human desire for God? God calls all. He institued Baptism to save. Who knows who has responded to God’s call, though they haven’t been exposed to the Gospel?

God created everyone in His image, including those who aren’t Christian. I think all humans have an inborn sense of God. Even those who live in primitive situations seek God. Their religions aren’t right, but who is to say that some of these people don’t seek God, though they are limited by the circumstances they were born into.

This isn’t to say that any “way” to God is as good as the next. It’s only to say that God is the judge, not us, and that we don’t control God.
Yes ,so right Kalt, and that is exactly what our Catholic Church teaches. It says so in the Catechism. Thank you and God Bless you,:thumbsup:Carlan
 
I think it’s about a human being’s response to God. Who’s to say that even those who don’t know Christ have not responded to the human desire for God? God calls all. He institued Baptism to save. Who knows who has responded to God’s call, though they haven’t been exposed to the Gospel?

God created everyone in His image, including those who aren’t Christian. I think all humans have an inborn sense of God. Even those who live in primitive situations seek God. Their religions aren’t right, but who is to say that some of these people don’t seek God, though they are limited by the circumstances they were born into.

This isn’t to say that any “way” to God is as good as the next. It’s only to say that God is the judge, not us, and that we don’t control God.
I couldn’t agree more. I often think of the hidden tribe in the darkest reaches of the Amazon. God has written His laws on our hearts. Even they know that it is wrong to steal from each other, or kill, or take another’s wife. There are some who believe that these people cannot be saved until they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. In my mind that would mean that they would be dependent upon man to find them and teach them, making them dependent upon man for their salvation. I don’t think so. They will be judged according to the way they lived with what they had been given.
 
I think it’s about a human being’s response to God. Who’s to say that even those who don’t know Christ have not responded to the human desire for God?
. . . .That is why I say “only God knows” in those circumstances because He is the only one who can read our hearts. . . .
In October of 2001, my son (14 yrs. old, then) was struck by a car, while riding his bike. He was spending the weekend with his father. Emergency personal called me from the scene. I rushed to get to my son. As I arrived on the scene, one of the EMT’s told me they thought both ankles were fractured and they feared internal injuries. My son was lying on the pavement, bloody, gashes in his forehead, spine immobilized, ankles immobilized; but still conscious. I must have looked horrified as I approached my him; because the first words he said to me were, “Don’t worry Mom, it doesn’t even hurt.” That’s so typical of my son–he’s never been a complainer. He was the one lying in all the blood and yet was trying to console me.

I remember looking over at the car that hit him. The safety glass in the windshield was shattered with the deep imprint of my son’s body. The top of the car was, also, deeply dented. The care was not drivable. I remember getting this sick feeling in my stomach, when I saw all the damage his body did to that car.

I was told the car struck him, flipping him into the windshield, which flipped him into the air again–causing him to land on top of the car, which then sent him soaring to the pavement. Even now, it’s difficult to think about it.

After hours in the Emergency room, and many CT Scans, X-rays, and MRI’s later; he had only one broken bone in his right ankle and no internal injuries. The nurses and doctors said it was a miracle he survived, and even more of a miracle that he had only one fracture. He made impact with the car at least three times, before being catapulted to the pavement. One of the nurses said the way he was flipped should have “snapped his neck.” What a horrible thought.

After, the doctor finished all the stitches in his forehead and scalp (a rather gruesome sight), the nurses joked with him, saying he could be Frankenstein for Halloween, and wouldn’t even need a costume. My son laughed and said, “Yeah, all I need are the nails in my neck.”

I am getting to a point about salvation–just taking the long road to get to it. I spent the night in the hospital with my son. By morning, his pediatrician came in to see him. He is one of the best physicians in our city. He is also of the Islamic faith. After reading my son’s chart and speaking with me; he went in to see my son. He said to him, “God has given you a second chance. Do something good with your life.” I will never forget those words. I walked his doctor out and spoke to him for a while longer. I asked him how things had been for him since the attacks on 9-11. He expressed a deep sorrow for the horrific actions of the extremists. He said some patients left him to find other doctors, simply because his faith was Islam. He was not really complaining. He said he understood.

Then, he said something that really surprised me. He said, “I’ve been thinking. When I die and I stand before God, what if I’ve gotten it wrong? And if I’m wrong, I will say to God, how could I know? You didn’t send anyone to tell me that I’ve gotten it wrong.”

I listened. I did not press him. It was not my time to speak. It was a time to be his friend; a time to tell him how much I appreciated his coming to see my son; a time to let him know we did not hold him responsible for the actions of the extremists who attacked our country on 9-11. This was a time for prayer. This man was truly seeking God. He wanted to “get it right.” I have faith that God will lead him to the path of salvation. It was not my time to speak. Though, it is possible that God will place other Christians in this man’s path, who may be called to speak according to God’s purpose.

So, who are we to say, who will find God’s salvation, or what road will lead them to ultimately embrace the salvation of Christ. I will not attempt to limit God’s plan for man’s salvation. I have no right to do that.

When I was driving my son home from the hospital, he began to talk about the accident. He laughed a bit, telling me as one of his shoes flew off, he was thinking how he would have to get a new pair of shoes. We both found that humorous.

Then his tone became serious and he said, “You know Mom, when I was flying through the air, all I could think about was God.”

I was rather startled. My son had never been as religiously inclined, as I had hoped. I paused for a moment, and said, “Were you afraid you were going to die?” My son said, “No, Mom. I knew I wasn’t going to.” Then we both reflected in silence. Nothing more needed to be said.

My son still has not been baptized. He left the Baptist Church long before I did, and he is really down on organized religion right now. I pray for his salvation. I pray that he will find his way to Christ, and that he will remember such times as this, when he knew God was there, and he knew God was protecting him. I pray that my son is on the path of salvation.

So, how can we say who is on the path of salvation and who is not. Only God holds this knowledge.

Anna
 
We know as Catholic’s that all salvation comes through Jesus Christ. So we cannot and will not know if we are saved until we meet him face to face and are judged by him.

No one can say that they know for sure that they are indeed saved or not. If they feel that they can, then they have put themself as judge over our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned.

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God–

3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s
one and only Son.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the
Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who
sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over
from death to life.

6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he
has sent.”
 
In October of 2001, my son (14 yrs. old, then) was struck by a car, while riding his bike. He was spending the weekend with his father. Emergency personal called me from the scene. I rushed to get to my son. As I arrived on the scene, one of the EMT’s told me they thought both ankles were fractured and they feared internal injuries. My son was lying on the pavement, bloody, gashes in his forehead, spine immobilized, ankles immobilized; but still conscious. I must have looked horrified as I approached my him; because the first words he said to me were, “Don’t worry Mom, it doesn’t even hurt.” That’s so typical of my son–he’s never been a complainer. He was the one lying in all the blood and yet was trying to console me.

I remember looking over at the car that hit him. The safety glass in the windshield was shattered with the deep imprint of my son’s body. The top of the car was, also, deeply dented. The care was not drivable. I remember getting this sick feeling in my stomach, when I saw all the damage his body did to that car.

I was told the car struck him, flipping him into the windshield, which flipped him into the air again–causing him to land on top of the car, which then sent him soaring to the pavement. Even now, it’s difficult to think about it.

After hours in the Emergency room, and many CT Scans, X-rays, and MRI’s later; he had only one broken bone in his right ankle and no internal injuries. The nurses and doctors said it was a miracle he survived, and even more of a miracle that he had only one fracture. He made impact with the car at least three times, before being catapulted to the pavement. One of the nurses said the way he was flipped should have “snapped his neck.” What a horrible thought.

After, the doctor finished all the stitches in his forehead and scalp (a rather gruesome sight), the nurses joked with him, saying he could be Frankenstein for Halloween, and wouldn’t even need a costume. My son laughed and said, “Yeah, all I need are the nails in my neck.”

I am getting to a point about salvation–just taking the long road to get to it. I spent the night in the hospital with my son. By morning, his pediatrician came in to see him. He is one of the best physicians in our city. He is also of the Islamic faith. After reading my son’s chart and speaking with me; he went in to see my son. He said to him, “God has given you a second chance. Do something good with your life.” I will never forget those words. I walked his doctor out and spoke to him for a while longer. I asked him how things had been for him since the attacks on 9-11. He expressed a deep sorrow for the horrific actions of the extremists. He said some patients left him to find other doctors, simply because his faith was Islam. He was not really complaining. He said he understood.

Then, he said something that really surprised me. He said, “I’ve been thinking. When I die and I stand before God, what if I’ve gotten it wrong? And if I’m wrong, I will say to God, how could I know? You didn’t send anyone to tell me that I’ve gotten it wrong.”

I listened. I did not press him. It was not my time to speak. It was a time to be his friend; a time to tell him how much I appreciated his coming to see my son; a time to let him know we did not hold him responsible for the actions of the extremists who attacked our country on 9-11. This was a time for prayer. This man was truly seeking God. He wanted to “get it right.” I have faith that God will lead him to the path of salvation. It was not my time to speak. Though, it is possible that God will place other Christians in this man’s path, who may be called to speak according to God’s purpose.

So, who are we to say, who will find God’s salvation, or what road will lead them to ultimately embrace the salvation of Christ. I will not attempt to limit God’s plan for man’s salvation. I have no right to do that.

When I was driving my son home from the hospital, he began to talk about the accident. He laughed a bit, telling me as one of his shoes flew off, he was thinking how he would have to get a new pair of shoes. We both found that humorous.

Then his tone became serious and he said, “You know Mom, when I was flying through the air, all I could think about was God.”

I was rather startled. My son had never been as religiously inclined, as I had hoped. I paused for a moment, and said, “Were you afraid you were going to die?” My son said, “No, Mom. I knew I wasn’t going to.” Then we both reflected in silence. Nothing more needed to be said.

My son still has not been baptized. He left the Baptist Church long before I did, and he is really down on organized religion right now. I pray for his salvation. I pray that he will find his way to Christ, and that he will remember such times as this, when he knew God was there, and he knew God was protecting him. I pray that my son is on the path of salvation.

So, how can we say who is on the path of salvation and who is not. Only God holds this knowledge.

Anna
Thank you Dear Anna, :)Carlan
 
I’ve read most of the thread to try to get caught up with the conversation…Canon and tradition has backed many people into a corner, across the religous spectrum, when it comes to this issue.

Here’s the big problem:

What are we really asking when we ask ‘are we really saved’; are we asking about being saved from hell or from death?

The truth has been corrupted since the time of Messiah. There is little way to be sure of the truth until the Messiah comes again and opens our eyes, so (obviously) there are many who have died in ignorance of the truth. However, we know certain truths as stated by God:

A) God = Life
B) Sin = Separation from God, so…
C) Sin causes Death
D) Messiah is the way to Life[God]
Genesis 2:17 - “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [not go to Hell].”
Many have focused on the judgement of Hell, but God never said anything about a Hell in the beginning. The consequense of sin is death. The curse on humanity is death, not Hell. The Messiah came to save humanity from death.

Question: What was the difference between life before the forbidden fruit and life after it?

Answer: We did not experience death. Hell is never mentioned in the beginning.

So how is the problem of death reconciled?
  1. There is no such thing as “severity of sin”. If there is, why was “eating a simple piece fruit” considered so “severe” as to deserve man’s original death sentence? No, there are no levels or categories of sin; there is only one sin: “The Lack of love through Disobedience”, and any sin is severe enough to “warrant death”, not because God decided to kill us, but because we cut ourselves off from Life[God].
This singular “deadly sin” takes many forms today, reflected by breaking any of God’s commandments…which is why Messiah came and told us that all of God’s commandments whittle down to two greatest aspects of showing Love (to God & to neighbor).
  1. The notion of being alive (in heaven or hell) after death is not what God says happens.
“Deadly sin” means “sin that results in death”, and God said to Adam, “If you eat this fruit you will surely die” [Gen 2:17]. He did not say “maybe” or “possibly” die. So again, “what was the harm in eating a simple piece a fruit”, except…

GOD SAID, “DO NOT”!

So is “deadly sin” connected to a specific act or moreso connected to “disobeying God”?

So if sin is disobeying God, then all sins are deadly sin.

Enters satan who lies and suggests to Eve (who then tells Adam), “you won’t surely die” if they eat a simple piece of fruit [Gen 3:4]. And as soon as Eve and Adam ate the fruit they did not die instantly…or did they?

Weren’t they immediately cut off from God[who is Life]? Didn’t God have trouble finding them in the garden as if He could no longer identify them [Gen. 3:9]? Didn’t they feel as if they lack something as soon as they ate the fruit [Gen.3:7]?

And now today we believe that we are “spirits” riding within “flesh vehicles” Even though this is not what God said either].

And we believe when we die, our true selves (spirits) are released to go either to Heaven with God, or to Hell to be cut off from God, and to suffer for eternity Even though this is not what Messiah said happens to us].

So in following this belief, we believe we never (actually) die when in heaven or hell, right?

But consider Hell for a moment: God said, “apart from He[who is Life], we have no life”, so how can we be in Hell - apart from God - and still be alive to suffer in Hell, or isn’t this but a new version of the same lie told to Adam & Eve (“you shall not die”)?

Again, if death means “to not exist”, and if many believe that when we die we are “alive” with Jesus and our loved ones in Heaven, how can sinners - apart from God in Hell - still be alive to suffer in Hell?

So then who’s right: satan or God?

A) satan (for suggesting that we never die), or…
B) God (for saying that separation from Him[Life] is death)?

Who’s word do we currently follow today?

The original problem is death, not Hell…It is a flaw to believe in “the immortal soul”, because even if we think we’re going to Hell, we’d still believe we’re alive forever, right?

Again, go back to the original problem God faced, and why He loved us so much to send His Son. We were saved from death. Hell doesn’t exist. This is the truth Messiah speaks of that satan wants generations to die in and never hear.

Messiah said [Brackets mine]:
John 8:44 -“He was a murderer from the beginning [caused death of humanity]…there is no truth in him.”
John 14:6 - “I am the way and the truth and the life…”
So how will everyone have a chance to know the truth and attempt to live life in truth?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ[Truth] will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them [those once dead didn’t come down from heaven but rose up] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And [then after that] we will be with the Lord for forever."
But the bible speaks of Hell!

The words used is Hebrew “sheol” (“state of oblivion”) and Greek “hades” (“realm of dead”) = Death
 
In October of 2001, my son (14 yrs. old, then) was struck by a car, while riding his bike. He was spending the weekend with his father. Emergency personal called me from the scene. I rushed to get to my son. As I arrived on the scene, one of the EMT’s told me they thought both ankles were fractured and they feared internal injuries. My son was lying on the pavement, bloody, gashes in his forehead, spine immobilized, ankles immobilized; but still conscious. I must have looked horrified as I approached my him; because the first words he said to me were, “Don’t worry Mom, it doesn’t even hurt.” That’s so typical of my son–he’s never been a complainer. He was the one lying in all the blood and yet was trying to console me.

I remember looking over at the car that hit him. The safety glass in the windshield was shattered with the deep imprint of my son’s body. The top of the car was, also, deeply dented. The care was not drivable. I remember getting this sick feeling in my stomach, when I saw all the damage his body did to that car.

I was told the car struck him, flipping him into the windshield, which flipped him into the
again–causing him to land on top of the car, which then sent him soaring to the pavement. Even now, it’s difficult to think about it.

After hours in the Emergency room, and many CT Scans, X-rays, and MRI’s later; he had only one broken bone in his right ankle and no internal injuries. The nurses and doctors said it was a miracle he survived, and even more of a miracle that he had only one fracture. He made impact with the car at least three times, before being catapulted to the pavement. One of the nurses said the way he was flipped should have “snapped his neck.” What a horrible thought.

After, the doctor finished all the stitches in his forehead and scalp (a rather gruesome sight), the nurses joked with him, saying he could be Frankenstein for Halloween, and wouldn’t even need a costume. My son laughed and said, “Yeah, all I need are the nails in my neck.”

I am getting to a point about salvation–just taking the long road to get to it. I spent the night in the hospital with my son. By morning, his pediatrician came in to see him. He is one of the best physicians in our city. He is also of the Islamic faith. After reading my son’s chart and speaking with me; he went in to see my son. He said to him, “God has given you a second chance. Do something good with your life.” I will never forget those words. I walked his doctor out and spoke to him for a while longer. I asked him how things had been for him since the attacks on 9-11. He expressed a deep sorrow for the horrific actions of the extremists. He said some patients left him to find other doctors, simply because his faith was Islam. He was not really complaining. He said he understood.

Then, he said something that really surprised me. He said, “I’ve been thinking. When I die and I stand before God, what if I’ve gotten it wrong? And if I’m wrong, I will say to God, how could I know? You didn’t send anyone to tell me that I’ve gotten it wrong.”

I listened. I did not press him. It was not my time to speak. It was a time to be his friend; a time to tell him how much I appreciated his coming to see my son; a time to let him know we did not hold him responsible for the actions of the extremists who attacked our country on 9-11. This was a time for prayer. This man was truly seeking God. He wanted to “get it right.” I have faith that God will lead him to the path of salvation. It was not my time to speak. Though, it is possible that God will place other Christians in this man’s path, who may be called to speak according to God’s purpose.

So, who are we to say, who will find God’s salvation, or what road will lead them to ultimately embrace the salvation of Christ. I will not attempt to limit God’s plan for man’s salvation. I have no right to do that.

When I was driving my son home from the hospital, he began to talk about the accident. He laughed a bit, telling me as one of his shoes flew off, he was thinking how he would have to get a new pair of shoes. We both found that humorous.

Then his tone became serious and he said, “You know Mom, when I was flying through the air, all I could think about was God.”

I was rather startled. My son had never been as religiously inclined, as I had hoped. I paused for a moment, and said, “Were you afraid you were going to die?” My son said, “No, Mom. I knew I wasn’t going to.” Then we both reflected in silence. Nothing more needed to be said.

My son still has not been baptized. He left the Baptist Church long before I did, and he is really down on organized religion right now. I pray for his salvation. I pray that he will find his way to Christ, and that he will remember such times as this, when he knew God was there, and he knew God was protecting him. I pray that my son is on the path of salvation.

So, how can we say who is on the path of salvation and who is not. Only God holds this knowledge.

Anna
Anna, what a moving story. One thing we know for sure is that God desires that all of us be saved. Another thing we know is that he is all merciful. That’s a pretty good combination. His ways of drawing us to Himself are mysterious and unkown and we should never despair. Because of our God we can have hope.
 
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