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Joshua27
Guest
Hi fbl9,
St. John Description of the Apocalypse starts off by saying that the Apocalypse is:
- This passage shows that the Apocalypse is a vision God gave to the Messiah. The Messiah didn’t have this revelation until God gave it to Him, to give to John.
- This passage shows that everything that follows had not happened yet but which would happen in the future.
This is all future…this is all a vision. The following is an even better passage to show the events of revelation are not real, but a prophesy.
Note: The chapters when the beasts and the mark of the beast and the wrath - which all define the great tribulation - do not occur until Revelation 13 and on and yet this is chapter 7 which speaks of those who died during the great tribulation.
**So how can these people whom **we are told died in the great tribulation be there in heaven, before the great tribulation has even occured?
As far as the Messiah speaking of hell as an everlasting punishment, you are talking about Matthew 25:46, as this is the only place such a phrase is even mention in the entirety of the bible:
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The original new testament was written in Greek, and the Greek phrase used was "kolasin aionion."
Kolasin - “correction, to **cut-off **as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit.”
Aionion - “Aion; Age; Era”
So it’s a mistranslation to read “everlasting punishment”. The correct understanding would be “pruning of an era” or “pruning of the ages”…in other words, a “complete removal” (eradication like with weeds) of those who are not purified through salvation.
Now, is it correct to equate Hell with this Age-lasting?
No, because Hell and Lake of Fire are defined as two different things in the following passages:
Man is made in the image of God through being a “sentient being”; having the freedom of choice…to choose right from wrong and to create.
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fbl9
Guest
What is said though that they are there in heaven before the last day which conflicts with what you said about death.in your earlier post
Daniel 12:2 disagrees with you also “…they shall see it always”
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TEPO
Guest
Sorry to disagree… But I believe to be saved means to be free from sin… Has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell… Only God can answer that!
Saved means salvation… Jesus died on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned.
To be saved means to be forgiven of your sins, and those who do not believe will be held accountable for their sins… But whether one goes to hell or heaven is a whole other subject!
J
Joshua27
Guest
No, sir (or ma’am). It’s all a vision for the future, specified twice prior to any description of the events that follow.
Revelation 1:1 - “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him [The Messiah], to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass…”
Revelation 4:1 - After these things I saw a door standing open in heaven. I heard the first voice like a trumpet speaking to me. It said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.
Revelation 7:13 - Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
So the question is when was/is the great tribulation described? When are the events of the great tribulation? If they are already there in heaven, then the events of the great tribulation must’ve already occurred, right?
No. We know the events did not occur just yet because we know that right after the great tribulation, the Messiah comes again, which also hasn’t happened yet.
But when he comes - after the great tribulation - first the dead will rise…
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord himself {only} will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christwill rise first.
Daniel 12:2 - “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth {these are the dead} shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
…and then the rest who are alive and remain will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And [then after that] we will be with the Lord for forever."
…Then there is the final battle when the beasts and the enemies of Christ are destroyed and satan is imprisoned for 1000 years. It is during the 1000 years everyone will have a final chance to know the truth.
Hi TEPO:
Do you agree with the following three facts?
A) God = Life
B) Sin = Separation of God[Life]
C) Messiah is the way to Life[God]
If so, What is the result of sinning? Why did the Messiah save us from sin? Why when we use the words “condemn” (as in “I condemn you to…” or “this building is condemned”), what is always referenced? What is the original problem mentioned by Jesus in John 8:44, saying, “He was a murderer from the beginning…there is no truth in him”? What is the original lie that doomed all of humanity [Genesis 2:17]?
If you do not agree…please explain.
[Honestly I rather ask these questions one-at-a-time, but that would take too much time in a forum-style of communication]
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tweetymom
Guest
I 100% agree with you .
T
TEPO
Guest
Hi TEPO:
Do you agree with the following three facts? Yes.
A) God = Life
B) Sin = Separation of God[Life]
C) Messiah is the way to Life[God]
- What is the result of sinning?
- Why did the Messiah save us from sin?
- Why when we use the words “condemn” (as in “I condemn you to…” or “this building is condemned”), what is always referenced?
- What is the original problem mentioned by Jesus in John 8:44, saying, “He was a murderer from the beginning…there is no truth in him”?
- What is the original lie that doomed all of humanity [Genesis 2:17]?
- The result of sinning is different for those who acknowledge the “new covenant” (Jesus’ death and resurrection) from those who deny it. Those who deny the “word made flesh” (Jesus) will be denied the “forgiveness of sins” (salvation)… They will be “punished” (condemned) for the sins, while those who believe in Jesus will be “saved” (not convicted for their sins).
- The Messiah saved us from sin so that we could avoid being condemned by our sins -thus allowing us the opportunity to live eternally with the Father.
- When we use the word condemn, we can think of a murderer who has been condemned to death, or life in prison. Condemn means you must face punishment.
It can also mean -grounds for conviction. - Jesus tells us that Satan is the “father of lies”.
- The original lie from satan was telling Adam and Eve that if they ate the apple that they would be lilke God, which was impossible because one can never be like God while being apart from God… Impossible!
J
Joshua27
Guest
Cool! Salvation means “to be saved” or “delivered”, but from what? What is the conviction? What is the sentence?
Great! You’re right! Now which condemnation does Jesus talk about all throughout his ministry? The solution Jesus [the Messiah] continuously talks about all throughout his ministry is Life: “I am the way and the truth and the Life”; “life-giving water”; “bread of life”; “blood is the life”; “I will lay down my life…”.
If life is the solution(answer), what is the problem?
Ok! So satan lied to Adam and Eve, telling them that ‘the consequence of eating the forbidden fruit was that they would be like God’.
But what was the truth; what was the true consequence that God - Himself - told Adam and Eve about eating the forbidden fruit? Can you define the true, original problem - as stated by God - that Jesus [The Messiah] was sent to solved?
[Hint: Matthew 8:22 + Luke 9:60]
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TEPO
Guest
I see where you’re going with this… :ehh:
You think death is the result… But are you suggesting that death means emptiness of life, or absense of life?
J
Joshua27
Guest
Let those who have eyes, see.
Truly, TEPO, God is present in your words as your latest question has defined the full image of Life [Who is God]:
Life = Existence (as oposed to absence), AND…
Life = Fulfillment (as oposed to emptiness)
In the beginning, God created man[kind]; we existed (physical)…and prior to man’s fall, we also dwelled with God; we were fulfilled (spiritual).
Satan - the murderer - through a lie, helped us to sin and to be cut off from God, so cursed us to death.
God could no longer dwell with us; so we became empty (spiritual corruption/death)…and lest corruption continues to eat from the tree of life, we were removed from the garden; so we began to cease to exist (human lifespan = physical corruption/death).
Jesus [Messiah] offers us his life, so that - once again - we are fulfilled (if we accept it).
Now, we are required to (a) accept life from Jesus [Messiah] and (b) live in obedience of the Father until we cease to exist or until Messiah comes again to give us our reward (change us into physical everlasting).
To Thread: Those who accept the Messiah AND live in obedience to God are - for a fact - truly saved.
Those who refuse to (a) accept life from the Messiah and choose not to (b) live in obedience of the Father, are empty in their lives until they cease to exist…and later on (on the day of judgement), they will be resurrected and judged in the second death:
Brackets mine:
Notice that the to existence of a “second death” means that there’s a dual problem (Spiritual Death & Physical Death). This is why Messiah has to come a second time. God’s first act of salvation was for spiritual salvation, while His second act will be for physical salvation, so that the full image of life; the full image of God (as in “we are made in the image of God”) is once again complete.
Why was spiritual death taken care of before physical death?
Because there are many who would not accept Jesus, and lest spiritual corruption physically lives forever…this had to be the order.
T
TEPO
Guest
I see, I see… But I am catholic, and that is not the position of the catholic Church.
According to the Church, every man is judged immediately upon death by his sin (particular judgment). This is catholic dogma… At this point, our salvation is made known, as we will go to heaven, purgatory or hell… Our eternal punishment in hell will be decided upon by the severity of our sins.
We will face yet another judgment (general judgment) when Jesus returns to earth to judge all of the living and the dead upon their love (works)… At this time we will re-enter our physical bodies once again, and the gates between heaven and earth will be opened forever. (the day of the Lord)
So first we’re judged by our sins, and then again by our works.
Hell on the other hand is the place where all those who died before Christ went to wait for the gates of heaven to open up again since Adams fall… It wasnt until Jesus died on the cross, went to hell himself -did something- and then was resurrected to heaven, that the poor souls were allowed to enter into heaven… Jesus opened the gates, and those in hell went straight to heaven.
So if hell is actually death, as you have claimed, then how could the souls of the faithful departed, as well as Jesus, have died and then came back to live in heaven? Can souls enter into the emptiness of death, and then return to existence again? I find this hard to understand.
Also, one of the things that followed the fall of Adam was “concupiscence”… When Adam ate the fruit he became concupiscent, which means that from that point on, men had a desire for sin from within… This did not exist before, as sins previously had to be introduced from the outside, via temptation… But now, man was able to sin all on his own.
This was the damning effect of abandoning God… Which as you have noted, resembles death because we loose something… Something beautiful… Man was now susceptible to illness, pain (including child birth pains), physical death, and most importantly original sin.
But I can understand how a feeling of death makes sense… We are much closer to death because we have distanced ourselves from God, because of adam and satan. This is exactly what happens when a person looses God… He looses everything good, pain sets in, disaster sets in… One feels dead… But one can never die… One lives in pain for eternity.
sources:
particular judgement: newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm
general judgement: newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm
concupiscence: newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm
hell: newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
J
Joshua27
Guest
Fair enough…I won’t comment against Catholic Church dogma any more than I have to to answer your question.
How powerful is our Father? How powerful is He who has formed TEPO and Joshua from the emptiness of nothingness - from total oblivion - into existence? Wheren’t we originally in oblivion before arriving into life? Can you remember anything before being alive? We know there was a time when we did not exist, so it should be a simple matter for The Alpha and Omega to return us back to “non-existence”, right?
Not even the Son of God - Jesus - had the power to take back his own life unless our Father gave him that authority.
Brakets mine:
I think it’s truly hard for us to wrap our heads around not existing at all. It’s a very scary thought for anyone to imagine.
But think about it: We know Jesus was originally a spirit, who changed into a man to dwell with us. Well why would the Son of God fear his pending physical death in the garden (asking God to let the cup pass) if it only meant that his spirit would be (once again) freed like it originally was?
One could argue that Jesus feared his beating, but this doesn’t explain another similar moment of fear gripped him when he felt God[Life] “forsake” (leave) him on the cross.
Again, if death is simply “shedding of flesh by the spirit”, why would Jesus fear being forsaken by God[Life]?
If Jesus’ spirit is entrusted into the hands of our Father, how can his soul be in (the place most know as) Hell? These verses are contradictory, unless Soul means “being” [as in, man became “a living soul”/“a living being”] , Spirit means “Life” [as in “God is Spirit; God is Life”] and Hell means “emptiness in death” or “oblivion”.
Ask yourself: If you were Jesus and KNEW you were commanded to willingly die, knowing that death was to enter into “complete oblivion”…to not exist at all…anymore…even for a moment…your life is completely our of your hands…when the time came - on the cross - to give up your life, wouldn’t you also get scared; wouldn’t the most stoic person have a brief moment of weakness and say “don’t leave me dad[Life]!”
Now ask yourself: Could this real emotional moment even be possible if you KNEW you were merely shedding your flesh [entering into your original spirit mode] to venture into the spirit world?
Jesus is the Son of God, so he KNEW the truth and his emotions responded to it.
To have Life is to exist…
But Sin must not exist (so any vessel of sin must return to oblivion)…
To not exist; to enter into oblivion, is Death…
Jesus piled all sin onto himself and became the vessel of our sin…
So Jesus was required - by law - to die…to no longer exist…at all…anywhere…complete oblivion!
Wow…it just hit me how profound an act of love the Father and Son chose to share; to choose to not exist, for us.
As beings we hold so tightly onto our own lives. How many would willing give their lives back to God and choose to enter into oblivion/nothingness, only to have the faith (like Jesus) beforehand that God would return life back to them whenever He so chose to?
Can souls enter into the emptiness of death, and then return to existence again?
This question is but the other side of the same coin as asking:
Can God take emptiness and create souls that exist? Sure he can!
Thus the raw power of the one who is “The Beginning and the End”.
M
Masters_Servant
Guest
Jesus said most who profess Christ are deceived. That would include all religious lines. According to Catholic dogma; no one outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. They have changed their doctrine on this since Vatican II and now call people outside the Catholic ChurchCarlan,
I feel for you.
I will warn you that many Baptists do not believe Catholics are Christians—a belief that is often preached from Baptist pulpits–along with many misconceptions about the Catholic faith.
May God bless you and protect you,
Anna
“separated brethren” as opposed to Trent and many Popes that “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”.
I have been to many Baptist churches and have never heard anyone preach behind the pulpit that Catholics are not Christians; however I have heard reference to some of Catholic theology as damning.
It would be arrogant to make a blanket statement that all Catholics are damned just as it would be arrogant to say all Baptists are saved.
But if this is what you have heard many ties; it helps explain why you no longer identify with the Baptists.
M
Masters_Servant
Guest
Passing judgment and stating a fact from the Word of God are two different things; I stated the facts from the word of God; so take your question up with Him. He stated that those who reject the son of God, Jesus, will perish. At this point there is clear rejection; doesn’t mean it will continue for we do not know when the Holy Spirit will move in someones life and transform it.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
Carlan,Masters Servant Hello, it seems to me that the OP is questioning the false doctrine of OSAS.
I can understand the Questioning in Strawberry’s post.
Why do you call her out and not the others ?
Peace,Carlan
As I began to read this thread I responded to a post on the 1st or 2nd page that caught my attention. This was random and not picking and choosing. The last thing I want to see is Strawberry or anyone else to reject the gospel and thus be left in their sin to face the wrath of a just and Holy God. But the Good News is predicated upon the bad news.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
First, anyone who rejects outright Jesus is remaining in their sin at whatever point of time they are in a state of rejection; plain fact from the Word of God; ever heard of the concept of loosing and binding, it applies to all Christians by faithfully sharing the gospel and with warning of the consequences of not accepting.We don’t pretend to know who will or won’t be saved. And we don’t speculate about anyone’s current standing with God. God is the judge, not us.
I understand your desire to convert someone you consider lost. You crossed the line when, rather than explaining your views on salvation, you speculated about another’s standing at the moment and used scare tactics by threatening eternal damnation.
As I said, Catholics don’t speculate about anyone’s salvation, and we certainly don’t threaten non-Christians with Hell!
Only God knows who is saved and who is damned. Who is any person to speculate about another–and with such certainty? Maybe it is the speculator types who will be surprised when those they are certain will be damned pass them on the way to the pearly gates.
There are little icons here that perfectly represent the OSAS and the I-know-who-isn’t-going-to-Heaven types when they realize (and are quite annoyed, I bet) that Heaven is populated (“polluted” in their holier-than-thou opinion) with the people they were sure were headed to Hell. You know - Catholics, Muslims, Communists, fans of the other team, drug addicts, alcoholics, and so many more undesireables. I want to be in heaven just to see the looks on their faces. Here they are.followed by
and finally reaching
, before they admit that they aren’t God and couldn’t have known who was and wasn’t saved. Then, when they finally get it, they can relax, give up fear, and love their neighbors (rather than declare them damned). Then they will finally feel the Joy peace of God and will begin to greet their neigbors like this.
On a serious note - I wonder if this is the sin that most of us will spend more “time” in Purgatory over - lack of charity and love toward others. I think it is.
Secondly, being in a place where you are exposed to the Truth and still rejecting only serves to bring further condemnation on a soul unless they repent; again from the voice of God, not me.
Thirdly, there is no love or charity in sugar coating the truth when eternity is at stake; in fact the “sugar coaters” lack any charity or love by holding back the whole counsel of God.
Fourthly, if you are unable to discern that someone who rejects Christ is in seriously trouble, then what are you doing speaking anything in regards to the Word of God?
Fifthly, Catholics have, do and are taught that those outside of their Church are lost. Wasn’t until Vatican II when the theology changed you are damned if you are not a Catholic to “separated brethren” that can be saved apart from the Church because they may be a part and not know it.
Finally, God certainly knows who is saved and who is damned, but the Christian also knows and this according to His word. 1 John 5, Romans 8 and Galatians 4 are a few examples and the strongest ones on that topic. If one has not experienced Romans 8, then it is well to have doubts, a healthy thing because the worse thing is to have no doubt and be deceived. What you perceive as arrogance is actually understanding how serious God is and how much it grieves a soul to see someone on a clear path of destruction, when you know there is a willing and able Savior to lift them from the penalty and bondage of sin.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
Why did Paul not go to confession before a "priest’ nor have a “confessional” so others would come to him? For that matter why wasn’t it even mentioned in Scripture by any of the writers??? Please explain.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
That is a good question because the reality from what I have been reading, which is a whole bunch, is that it is a sin of presumption on one hand to declare with certainty on can know their destiny of salvation, but on the other hand declaring someone a saint and often based on a snippet on ones life or in some cases a myth of someone supposed life. I have also come to learn that some of the "saints’ were saints based on popularity of the populace. So go figure; I would like an explanation that is reasonable.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
I have never heard of a Muslim that believed Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that in fact He is God; have you? What is the only reason people go to hell? Rejecting Jesus and His truth.What’s so odd Brian? Hope the following helps.Carlan
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
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"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims:
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered to gether in the holy city …Code:842 The Church's bond with non-Christians religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved.
Thus the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.
CCC
Carlan
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” There is only one path to God and it is not Allah.
This brings up another point I have noticed in my Catholic studies; that the church has become a more “universal church” since Vatican II. There is an obvious change in the Catholic Church since then and it is a very interesting study from a historical perspective. A tiny bit of irony, since Catholic means “universal”, but not in the same sense of the word.
M
Masters_Servant
Guest
Sounds like a rejection of the Word of God, since the Bible’s entire purpose is to show the way to Him which is through Christ.
God has given Christians the ability to discern truth from error and that would include damning error and we are told to confront that error so that God might be merciful and save them. I don’t believe the OP is saying a specific individual is damned, (they can’t anyway-that is Gods job), but rather a belief system that rejects the Savior to which one participates and dedicates themselves to will and is on the path of destruction. If God so chooses to remove the veil of blindness, then He will.
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