Do we know for a fact we are saved

[Masters_Servant]

The Bible is about the One, True, Church. That Church is the CC. It says nothing about UMs going to Heaven. If Catholics didn’t believe that the truth is found in churches other than the CC, we would believe that you aren’t going to Heaven. Your church doesn’t have what we call “the fullness of truth” that is found only in the CC, but it does contain truth. We don’t deny that truth wherever we find it - Christian or non-Christian religions. If you deny the truth that is found in Islam, you necessarily deny the same truth found in your own religion. There are many people who are prejudiced against God’s Church (the CC) by what they are taught by others, many times by their parents. Do you know that God denies someone in this situation salvation, when that person follows the truth that is contained in his religion, even if it isn’t the fullness of truth? And what of those who’ve never heard of Jesus? There are many people in the world who’ve never been exposed to the Gospel. Do you know that God denies them salvation? Are you certain that the Holy Spirit never guides these people?

I don’t know of a non-Catholic Christian church that doesn’t have doctrine that contradicts the truth that is found in the CC. Does this mean that people who follow those false doctrines are damned?

I don’t deny that non-Catholics may be in Heaven.

You say that you don’t damn, but you do.

Actually the Bible is about Jesus, the way of salvation for sinners, not the Catholic Church. Thought I would clear up that error.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Right. We aren’t saying that all Muslims are saved. We’re only saying that they worship the same God and they may be saved. I think that’s all we can say about individual. Salvation is offered, not guaranteed, even to those who are baptised.

They cannot worship the same God; they deny the deity of Jesus who is God.

Salvation is guaranteed to those who receive Christ according the the promises of God.

 

[kalt]

They cannot worship the same God; they deny the deity of Jesus who is God.

Salvation is guaranteed to those who receive Christ according the the promises of God.

So Jews also cannot worship the same god, because they don’t believe that Jesus is God.

 

[kalt]

Actually the Bible is about Jesus, the way of salvation for sinners, not the Catholic Church. Thought I would clear up that error.

Yes. I wasn’t clear there. The church that the writers of the Bible were talking about is the Catholic Church. The Bible says nothing about the UMC and makes no reference to it at all. The UMC didn’t exist at the time, just like the Islamic faith didn’t exist. Someone earlier on had claimed that proof that Islam wasn’t part of the salvation plan is the fact that it’s not mentioned in the Bible. The Church refered to by the writers, who belonged to that church, is the Catholic Church–the Bible is talking about the Catholic Church, not the UMC or a multitude of others. The other’s argument fails, because if we use the same standard, the Methodists aren’t part of the salvation plan. And, of course, the CC doesn’t teach that.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan,

As I began to read this thread I responded to a post on the 1st or 2nd page that caught my attention. This was random and not picking and choosing. The last thing I want to see is Strawberry or anyone else to reject the gospel and thus be left in their sin to face the wrath of a just and Holy God. But the Good News is predicated upon the bad news.

Masters, I do think, first of all, we should be more concerned about the saving of our own souls, You are in here preaching to many people who are still seaching for the Truth and Strawberry is just one, Presumption is most dangerous, you are not going to find faithful Catholics in this thread confirming error. your doctrine of OSAS is error and you can preach it till the cows come home and that will not change the Truth.

Jesus you are the light of the world, take the pride from our hearts and enlighten us to the full Truth.
Peace,
Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Masters,
There is much still left for ***all ***to ponder.

If your famous last words are ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ and you know for certainty, you may think you are filled with the holiness our God requires of us, but until you stand before him, your judge, you are not going to know it for sure. Yep, you can interpret scripture to satisfy and please what you think, find and use scripture out of context to prove your own interpretation but until you stand before him… Dear God give us the grace to persevere till the end.
Peace,
Carlan

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . It would be arrogant to make a blanket statement that all Catholics are damned just as it would be arrogant to say all Baptists are saved.

But if this is what you have heard many ties; it helps explain why you no longer identify with the Baptists.

I had many reasons for leaving the Baptist Church. Condemning Catholics, along with so many others, was only one of them.

First, anyone who rejects outright Jesus is remaining in their sin at whatever point of time they are in a state of rejection; plain fact from the Word of God; ever heard of the concept of loosing and binding, it applies to all Christians by faithfully sharing the gospel and with warning of the consequences of not accepting.

Secondly, being in a place where you are exposed to the Truth and still rejecting only serves to bring further condemnation on a soul unless they repent; again from the voice of God, not me.

Thirdly, there is no love or charity in sugar coating the truth when eternity is at stake; in fact the “sugar coaters” lack any charity or love by holding back the whole counsel of God.

Fourthly, if you are unable to discern that someone who rejects Christ is in seriously trouble, then what are you doing speaking anything in regards to the Word of God?

Fifthly, Catholics have, do and are taught that those outside of their Church are lost. Wasn’t until Vatican II when the theology changed you are damned if you are not a Catholic to “separated brethren” that can be saved apart from the Church because they may be a part and not know it.

Finally, God certainly knows who is saved and who is damned, but the Christian also knows and this according to His word. 1 John 5, Romans 8 and Galatians 4 are a few examples and the strongest ones on that topic. If one has not experienced Romans 8, then it is well to have doubts, a healthy thing because the worse thing is to have no doubt and be deceived. What you perceive as arrogance is actually understanding how serious God is and how much it grieves a soul to see someone on a clear path of destruction, when you know there is a willing and able Savior to lift them from the penalty and bondage of sin.

Your statement:

God certainly knows who is saved and who is damned, but the Christian also knows and this according to His word. 1 John 5, Romans 8 and Galatians 4 are a few examples and the strongest ones on that topic.

The Christian also knows who is saved and who is damned? Please provide support for this claim.

You are not God. You do not know the heart of anyone, other than yourself. You do not know who is saved and who is damned. You do not have the right to speak for God regarding the destiny of one’s soul.

Sounds like a rejection of the Word of God, since the Bible’s entire purpose is to show the way to Him which is through Christ.

God has given Christians the ability to discern truth from error and that would include damning error and we are told to confront that error so that God might be merciful and save them. I don’t believe the OP is saying a specific individual is damned, (they can’t anyway-that is Gods job), but rather a belief system that rejects the Savior to which one participates and dedicates themselves to will and is on the path of destruction. If God so chooses to remove the veil of blindness, then He will.

You have no right to judge Strawberry. You see “agnostic” in her religious designation and rush to judgment.

What you do not know is that there was a time when Strawberry listed herself as only “agnostic,” without any reference to “Catholic leanings.”

I have talked with Strawberry. I have prayed for her family, when she asked for prayers. I know she is on a sincere journey seeking the truth.

It takes courage for Strawberry to come to a religious forum and admit she is “agnostic.” Her honesty makes her vulnerable to attacks such as yours. You assume Strawberry is on the path of “damnation,” when she may very well be on a path that leads to salvation. If Strawberry finds Christ through the Catholic Church, I will rejoice with her.

I ask you to consider these passages of Holy Scripture:

Luke 6 (ESV): 37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

1 Corinthians 2 (ESV):
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,

nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

We are called to love one another and to spread the good news of the Gospel. We are not called to condemn, threaten, or attempt to lead anyone to salvation through fear tactics.

I beg of you, for your own sake, to prayerfully consider the words you speak.

Anna

 

[TEPO]

They cannot worship the same God; they deny the deity of Jesus who is God.

Salvation is guaranteed to those who receive Christ according the the promises of God.

I agree with you on this! Just because one claims to worship “the God of Abraham” does not include them in the new covenant… If that were the case, then any religion who claimed a single god would be the “God of Abraham”… Since God created all things and all men.

The only way to become free of sins is through Jesus… That is what it means to be “saved”.

 

[TEPO]

So Jews also cannot worship the same god, because they don’t believe that Jesus is God.

Sorry, I know this was not directed towards me, but I cant resist making a comment here…

It is a fact that even though the Jews worship the same God as us, they were never actually saved until AFTER they died and went to hell… Since Adam closed the gates to heaven, the Jews were waiting for the Redeemer to return and save them --in hell…

It was Jesus who died on the cross, went straight down, and released the souls of the faithful in hell by speaking the “Good News”… That is how the Jews of the old Covenant found salvation… They heard the good news in hell and ran to it…

Today, not only Jews, but all people of the whole world have this opportunity today -to hear the “Good News”…

To be saved, we must hear the word made flesh (Jesus).

 

[fbl9]

I agree with you on this! Just because one claims to worship “the God of Abraham” does not include them in the new covenant… If that were the case, then any religion who claimed a single god would be the “God of Abraham”… Since God created all things and all men.

The only way to become free of sins is through Jesus… That is what it means to be “saved”.

The new covenant is for all mankind unlike the old which was focused on the Jewish peoples.However a gentile could convert to the true faith.(Jewish) but was it not that from the Jewish nation that the world “gained” salvation…“for out of you Isreal, a great light has shined”
Is not the God of Abraham the same and only Father?Or did having His Son made flesh change Him?
While they think they knowwho they worship they do not(Muslims) Can you reject that which you know not? I can’t see how one can reject that which they do not know, So their fate is entirley is in the hand of God…

 

[Carlan]

Jesus said most who profess Christ are deceived. That would include all religious lines. According to Catholic dogma; no one outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. They have changed their doctrine on this since Vatican II and now call people outside the Catholic Church
“separated brethren” as opposed to Trent and many Popes that “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”.

No Masters, not changed it, simply made it more clear in wording.
Are you being resentful or hurt because of the fact that we Catholics acknowledge those Protestants who are separated from the Apostolic Church because of the rebellion 500 years ago through no fault of their own, and have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula(Father, Son , and Holy Spirit),but the still cannot admit them to full unity because they have not, as yet, been able to acknowledge the full Truth?
We believe you are Christians and we love you and respect you,and we want you to return, however , full unity with the Apostolic Church has not been reached. Our hope is it will be, the Church prays for the desire of Christ for full unity of his flock everyday.
Peace,
Carlan.

 

[TEPO]

The new covenant is for all mankind unlike the old which was focused on the Jewish peoples.However a gentile could convert to the true faith.(Jewish) but was it not that from the Jewish nation that the world “gained” salvation…“for out of you Isreal, a great light has shined”…

Yes Jesus came from the Jewish nation… But the old covenant is no longer valid, since Jesus fulfilled it. Jesus fulfilled the covenant by redeeming the Jews from hell, thus creating the “new” covenant…

So now that salvation has been instituted, should’nt we uphold the new covenant? Or should we glorify men by denying the relevance of Jesus’ sacrifice?

Is not the God of Abraham the same and only Father?Or did having His Son made flesh change Him?
While they think they knowwho they worship they do not(Muslims) Can you reject that which you know not? I can’t see how one can reject that which they do not know, So their fate is entirley is in the hand of God…

So if they hear the word made flesh, but dont love and follow it/Him, then there are other ways to be saved from sin?

So Jesus is only one of many sources for men to have their sins erased?

Why then did Jesus come to die on the cross?

 

[Carlan]

Actually the Bible is about Jesus, the way of salvation for sinners, not the Catholic Church. Thought I would clear up that error.

Jesus is the Church, He is the Bridegroom the Church is his Bride, they are one, Jesus gave the Bible to the Church through his Bride the Church. excuse me please, themade me do it, Peace, Carlan

 

[kalt]

Sorry, I know this was not directed towards me, but I cant resist making a comment here…

It is a fact that even though the Jews worship the same God as us, they were never actually saved until AFTER they died and went to hell… Since Adam closed the gates to heaven, the Jews were waiting for the Redeemer to return and save them --in hell…

It was Jesus who died on the cross, went straight down, and released the souls of the faithful in hell by speaking the “Good News”… That is how the Jews of the old Covenant found salvation… They heard the good news in hell and ran to it…

Today, not only Jews, but all people of the whole world have this opportunity today -to hear the “Good News”…

To be saved, we must hear the word made flesh (Jesus).

That’s what you believe, but it’s not what Jews believe. And haven’t many here decided that Muslims don’t worship the same god because they don’t believe the same things about god that Christians believe?

Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God. They don’t believe that Jesus is God, that he died for our sins, and rose from the dead. These are things that you believe, which the Jews disagree with.

So we have this explanation of how some Christians answer the question.
Muslims don’t worship the same god because they don’t believe that Jesus is God. Jews worship the same god even though they don’t believe that Jesus is God.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It’s two different standards applied. I think I’m seeing a lot of prejudice here.

 

[kalt]

Yes Jesus came from the Jewish nation… But the old covenant is no longer valid, since Jesus fulfilled it. Jesus fulfilled the covenant by redeeming the Jews from hell, thus creating the “new” covenant…

So now that salvation has been instituted, should’nt we uphold the new covenant? Or should we glorify men by denying the relevance of Jesus’ sacrifice?

So if they hear the word made flesh, but dont love and follow it/Him, then there are other ways to be saved from sin?

So Jesus is only one of many sources for men to have their sins erased?

Why then did Jesus come to die on the cross?

Check the CCC on the subject. You’re making a strawman argument here. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that there is salvation except through Christ.

Many are arguing against a Catholic teaching that doesn’t exist - the CC doesn’t teach that there is salvation except through Christ.

 

[TEPO]

Check the CCC on the subject. You’re making a strawman argument here. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that there is salvation except through Christ.

Many are arguing against a Catholic teaching that doesn’t exist - the CC doesn’t teach that there is salvation except through Christ.

Oh yeh? What about this quote from the CCC:
**841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330 **

Unfortunately, I have found an abundance of catholics (from the other thread “are muslims saved”)] who actually believe that mere faith in any god, includes them into the “plan of salvation”… In other words, they claim that Jesus is not necessary for salvation…

I find this part of the CCC confusing… (assuming salvation means forgiveness of sins and not “live in heaven”)

I thought “salvation” was a special gift.

 

[SteveVH]

That is a good question because the reality from what I have been reading, which is a whole bunch, is that it is a sin of presumption on one hand to declare with certainty on can know their destiny of salvation, but on the other hand declaring someone a saint and often based on a snippet on ones life or in some cases a myth of someone supposed life. I have also come to learn that some of the "saints’ were saints based on popularity of the populace. So go figure; I would like an explanation that is reasonable.

The canonization process is a long and involved ordeal. It is certainly not based upon “a snippet of ones life” or a “myth of someones supposed life”. Without going into great detail (there are many sites where you can gather information on the process) it usuaully takes several hundred years from the death of the Saint. There must be several miracles performed through the intercession of that Saint (after they have died) which are scrutinized by a Bishop who has the official title of “Devil’s Advocate”. If the miracle is some sort of healing it must be determined, through outside medical opinion, that there is no natural answer for the healing. One dramatic exapmle of this would be the little girl who had been blind from birth. She actually was born without pupils. Her mother prayed
for the intersession of Padre Pio and her daughter received the gift of sight. The big catch is that she could see, even though she still had no pupils. I believe she is still living today and still has no pupils.

I will agree that some saint’s lives have become almost myth due to overly pious people exagerating their merits. I will also agree that the Church has speeded up the process for some such as St. Francis of Assisi due to popular demand of the faithful. There were so many miracles attributed to his intercession that it was possible to do this. The bottom line is that one cannot be canonized unless the evidence is irrefutable. It is not done on a whim.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The canonization process is a long and involved ordeal. It is certainly not based upon “a snippet of ones life” or a “myth of someones supposed life”. Without going into great detail (there are many sites where you can gather information on the process) it usuaully takes several hundred years from the death of the Saint. There must be several miracles performed through the intercession of that Saint (after they have died) which are scrutinized by a Bishop who has the official title of “Devil’s Advocate”. If the miracle is some sort of healing it must be determined, through outside medical opinion, that there is no natural answer for the healing. One dramatic exapmle of this would be the little girl who had been blind from birth. She actually was born without pupils. Her mother prayed
for the intersession of Padre Pio and her daughter received the gift of sight. The big catch is that she could see, even though she still had no pupils. I believe she is still living today and still has no pupils.

I will agree that some saint’s lives have become almost myth due to overly pious people exagerating their merits. I will also agree that the Church has speeded up the process for some such as St. Francis of Assisi due to popular demand of the faithful. There were so many miracles attributed to his intercession that it was possible to do this. The bottom line is that one cannot be canonized unless the evidence is irrefutable. It is not done on a whim.

Steve,

Though this response was not addressed to me, you really did answer some of my questions about the Saints. Thank you so much.
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

Though this response was not addressed to me, you really did answer some of my questions about the Saints. Thank you so much.
Anna

Anna, I just gave the answer off the top of my head. You really should look at the Church’s official position on this. I watched a documentary on the canonization process and it was really fascinating. I couldn’t believe how involved it really is. There are many Catholics as we speak who are calling for and waiting for Pope John Paul, II’s canonization and want it yesterday. On one hand, if Pope John Paul, II is not in heaven then I don’t have a chance. I don’t think there is any doubt in anyone’s mind that this is the case, yet he has still not been canonized. I’m fairly certain that there have been three miracles (two healings from cancer and one from Parkinson’s) attributed to him which are still being investigated. I’ll try and find a good source for you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I just gave the answer off the top of my head. You really should look at the Church’s official position on this. I watched a documentary on the canonization process and it was really fascinating. I couldn’t believe how involved it really is. There are many Catholics as we speak who are calling for and waiting for Pope John Paul, II’s canonization and want it yesterday. On one hand, if Pope John Paul, II is not in heaven then I don’t have a chance. I don’t think there is any doubt in anyone’s mind that this is the case, yet he has still not been canonized. I’m fairly certain that there have been three miracles (two healings from cancer and one from Parkinson’s) attributed to him which are still being investigated. I’ll try and find a good source for you.

I’d love to have the source. I have great respect for Pope John Paul II.

Thanks,
Anna