Do we know for a fact we are saved

[TEPO]

The canonization process is a long and involved ordeal. It is certainly not based upon “a snippet of ones life” or a “myth of someones supposed life”. Without going into great detail (there are many sites where you can gather information on the process) it usuaully takes several hundred years from the death of the Saint. There must be several miracles performed through the intercession of that Saint (after they have died) which are scrutinized by a Bishop who has the official title of “Devil’s Advocate”. If the miracle is some sort of healing it must be determined, through outside medical opinion, that there is no natural answer for the healing. One dramatic exapmle of this would be the little girl who had been blind from birth. She actually was born without pupils. Her mother prayed
for the intersession of Padre Pio and her daughter received the gift of sight. The big catch is that she could see, even though she still had no pupils. I believe she is still living today and still has no pupils.

I will agree that some saint’s lives have become almost myth due to overly pious people exagerating their merits. I will also agree that the Church has speeded up the process for some such as St. Francis of Assisi due to popular demand of the faithful. There were so many miracles attributed to his intercession that it was possible to do this. The bottom line is that one cannot be canonized unless the evidence is irrefutable. It is not done on a whim.

Everyone who lives in heaven is a saint. All of them!
There are many religious Jews who are saints from the OT… I saw this in the CCC today, I’d never known…

 

[Masters_Servant]

So Jews also cannot worship the same god, because they don’t believe that Jesus is God.

We are speaking of Muslims, not Jews. The Jews “worship” one nature of God, which we know as God the Father, but they deny the deity of Christ; therefore they forfeit salvation based on the rejection of Jesus. But out of God’s generous mercy He removes the veil of blindness to see the Savior as He is and saves some of them.

But regardless of the false religions; those that adhere to the doctrines of false religions are not adhering to the doctrines of God, but of demons. God can and does remove the veil to whom He chooses without partiality and this would include all people.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes. I wasn’t clear there. The church that the writers of the Bible were talking about is the Catholic Church. The Bible says nothing about the UMC and makes no reference to it at all. The UMC didn’t exist at the time, just like the Islamic faith didn’t exist. Someone earlier on had claimed that proof that Islam wasn’t part of the salvation plan is the fact that it’s not mentioned in the Bible. The Church refered to by the writers, who belonged to that church, is the Catholic Church–the Bible is talking about the Catholic Church, not the UMC or a multitude of others. The other’s argument fails, because if we use the same standard, the Methodists aren’t part of the salvation plan. And, of course, the CC doesn’t teach that.

Nor does it mention the Catholic church; it does speak of the church that is the body of believers that transcends all peoples, tribes, tongues and nations. Any other claim is just a claim or a belief. This is clear throughout Scripture concerning the definition of the church and the make up of the church and it has no denomination in form or substance because the substance is Christ and the form is by faith in Christ, which no one can see the faith of another.

Don’t get me wrong; I think everyone has a right to believe as they will; freedom of choice concerning religion and freedom to create a historical perspective of such religions. We are in a Catholic forum; so a Catholic or a non-Catholic visitor should expect to see and learn a Catholic perspective; nothing else would make any sense.

I feel like I have learned and continue to learn. Today I learned more about the view of salvation in regards to OSAS being denied because of several reasons; one of which is a comparison of the marriage covenant to the New Covenant; helps me to understand one of several reasons as to why Catholics believe OSAS is not part of Catholic theology.

 

[SteveVH]

Everyone who lives in heaven is a saint. All of them!
There are many religious Jews who are saints from the OT… I saw this in the CCC today, I’d never known…

Yes. That is the definition of a saint; one who lives in heaven. There are certainly a lot more than just those who have been canonized. I think we’ll be surprised with who’s there (and who is not).

 

[SteveVH]

Nor does it mention the Catholic church; it does speak of the church that is the body of believers that transcends all peoples, tribes, tongues and nations. Any other claim is just a claim or a belief. This is clear throughout Scripture concerning the definition of the church and the make up of the church and it has no denomination in form or substance because the substance is Christ and the form is by faith in Christ, which no one can see the faith of another.

The “church that is the body of believers that transcends all peoples, tribes, tongues and nations” sounds like the Catholic Church to me. Its kind of what “catholic” (universal) means, its where we got our name.

As for “any other claim is just a claim or a belief” I beg to differ. Show me another church that has documentation proving an unbroken line of succession from Peter to Benedict. Show me another church with 2000 years of documented history. Show me another church that gave God’s word, the Bible to the world. I could go on. My point is that the CC is THE ONLY church that can can actually back up its claims with real evidence. No other can even make the claim, much less prove it.

It has had form and substance since the beginning. A real hierarchy, real bishops, real priests, real authority and most importantly the Real Presence. As far as Christ being the substance, you could not be more correct. We have the Eucharist, the true “substance” of Jesus’ body, blood, soul and divinity. It doesn’t get more substantial then that.

As for faith, if we cannot see our faith in each other then what good is it? If people cannot see our faith in the way we live then I would doubt its presence in our lives.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters, I do think, first of all, we should be more concerned about the saving of our own souls, You are in here preaching to many people who are still seaching for the Truth and Strawberry is just one, Presumption is most dangerous, you are not going to find faithful Catholics in this thread confirming error. your doctrine of OSAS is error and you can preach it till the cows come home and that will not change the Truth.

Jesus you are the light of the world, take the pride from our hearts and enlighten us to the full Truth.
Peace,
Carlan

I am not here to confirm Catholic doctrine but to understand parts of it that interest me. I have experience Romans 8 and I have no doubts about my eternal destiny and I also understand enough of God’s word to discern when a precious soul is at stake. I also understand from the Catholic position that this is either presumptuous sin or arrogance based on Catholic theology, but you must understand as well that I am not beholden to Catholic theology on this topic and chose to stick with what God’s word teaches, which is we can know and we should know if we are a Christian or not because that is the bottom line. A Christian goes to heaven and a non-Christian does not. So to doubt ones salvation is the same as doubting as to whether one is a Christian or not. To not know ones salvation is equivalent to not knowing if one is a Christian or not. I don’t think many people think about it from that angle, but yet they would be quick to affirm that a Christian is one who will go to heaven and a non-Christian is one who will not.

If someone were to die tomorrow and you did not take the time to give the whole counsel of the gospel when you had the opportunity because you were afraid it might offend; how much would one have rather taken the chance and allow God to do His work than to withhold the truth only to find out that they can no longer hear the truth? Talk about feeling remorseful. I know of one Christian that holds this guilt on His conscience concerning a neighbor of his that he spoke to often and was aware that he had no relationship with the Savior; yet with held the knowledge he had. I doubt he will ever with hold again, but once was enough to effect his own peace with himself.

I find it confusing that the largest denomination seems to do the least evangelizing and the smallest, like the JW’s or Mormons, tend to do the most. I would like to, in another thread, find out the issue with outside evangelism among the Catholic laity and why it is not done. That is a totally different topic and one which I have found little info from the catechism or other resources. I don’t mean this as a blanket statement; I’m sure there must be some exceptions but I have never witnessed nor have anyone I know ever witnessed having a Catholic go door to door speaking of the gospel or their own church. I and others have seen plenty of JW’s, Mormons and some Baptist come around door to door.

 

[fbl9]

Yes Jesus came from the Jewish nation… But the old covenant is no longer valid, since Jesus fulfilled it. Jesus fulfilled the covenant by redeeming the Jews from hell, thus creating the “new” covenant…

So now that salvation has been instituted, should’nt we uphold the new covenant? Or should we glorify men by denying the relevance of Jesus’ sacrifice?

where did you get this idea from? In my post that isn’t wrote in there

So if they hear the word made flesh, but dont love and follow it/Him, then there are other ways to be saved from sin?

read what was wrote there,THEY HAVE NOT HEARD OF THE GOOD NEWS SO HOW CAN THEY REJECT IT? TRY ANSWERING THIS.

So Jesus is only one of many sources for men to have their sins erased?

No idea how you gleaned that from my post read what was wrote not what you want it to be try just try limiting your posts to what was wrote.

Why then did Jesus come to die on the cross?

St.Paul’s first epsitle to the Corithians 5:12-13 verse13 reads "For those outside God will judge…"Are the muslims inside, no they are not so you should takes St.Paul’s words “For what do i have to do with judging those on the outside…”
There is no need to answer your question because the presummed need for the answer was based on a false sense of what was wrote in the first place try reading it next time.

 

[SteveVH]

I find it confusing that the largest denomination seems to do the least evangelizing and the smallest, like the JW’s or Mormons, tend to do the most. I would like to, in another thread, find out the issue with outside evangelism among the Catholic laity and why it is not done. That is a totally different topic and one which I have found little info from the catechism or other resources. I don’t mean this as a blanket statement; I’m sure there must be some exceptions but I have never witnessed nor have anyone I know ever witnessed having a Catholic go door to door speaking of the gospel or their own church. I and others have seen plenty of JW’s, Mormons and some Baptist come around door to door.

Going door to door is not the only way of evangelizing. The Cathoic Church is approx. 1.3 billion strong, so we’re not doing do bad. Another way of evangelizing is living a good life full of virtue. Personally, I enjoy having people come to my door. I always invite them in. Knocking on doors, however, is very offensive to a lot of people.

I’m sure you’ve heard the quote from St. Francis “Proclaim the Gospel to all the world, use words if necessary”. The best witness is an authentic life in Christ.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters,
There is much still left for ***all ***to ponder.

If your famous last words are ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ and you know for certainty, you may think you are filled with the holiness our God requires of us, but until you stand before him, your judge, you are not going to know it for sure. Yep, you can interpret scripture to satisfy and please what you think, find and use scripture out of context to prove your own interpretation but until you stand before him… Dear God give us the grace to persevere till the end.
Peace,
Carlan

If this were not part of the word and promise of God, the eternal security of the believer, then I would join you whole heartily, but I believe the word of God is absolute truth and stand and rest on the promises of God.

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:10-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

This is the great promise of God to which I lean and take refuge and should be the experience by the faithful servants of Christ. If it is not, then it is right to not have any sense of security least one should fall into self deception. If it is the experience, then one should rejoice in the promise of God.

I can send you a link to a very powerful sermon which is titled “Saved or Self-deceived” where this discussion is brought to life through the exposition of God’s word. Just send an email and I will be happy to provide that resource.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I am not here to confirm Catholic doctrine but to understand parts of it that interest me. I have experience Romans 8 and I have no doubts about my eternal destiny and I also understand enough of God’s word to discern when a precious soul is at stake. I also understand from the Catholic position that this is either presumptuous sin or arrogance based on Catholic theology, but you must understand as well that I am not beholden to Catholic theology on this topic and chose to stick with what God’s word teaches, which is we can know and we should know if we are a Christian or not because that is the bottom line. A Christian goes to heaven and a non-Christian does not. So to doubt ones salvation is the same as doubting as to whether one is a Christian or not. To not know ones salvation is equivalent to not knowing if one is a Christian or not. I don’t think many people think about it from that angle, but yet they would be quick to affirm that a Christian is one who will go to heaven and a non-Christian is one who will not.

If someone were to die tomorrow and you did not take the time to give the whole counsel of the gospel when you had the opportunity because you were afraid it might offend; how much would one have rather taken the chance and allow God to do His work than to withhold the truth only to find out that they can no longer hear the truth? Talk about feeling remorseful. I know of one Christian that holds this guilt on His conscience concerning a neighbor of his that he spoke to often and was aware that he had no relationship with the Savior; yet with held the knowledge he had. I doubt he will ever with hold again, but once was enough to effect his own peace with himself.

I find it confusing that the largest denomination seems to do the least evangelizing and the smallest, like the JW’s or Mormons, tend to do the most. I would like to, in another thread, find out the issue with outside evangelism among the Catholic laity and why it is not done. That is a totally different topic and one which I have found little info from the catechism or other resources. I don’t mean this as a blanket statement; I’m sure there must be some exceptions but I have never witnessed nor have anyone I know ever witnessed having a Catholic go door to door speaking of the gospel or their own church. I and others have seen plenty of JW’s, Mormons and some Baptist come around door to door.

Masters Servant,

Again, with the judgments.

I have seen a great deal of Catholic evangelism–a testament to the love of Christ-- through their lives and interactions with others. I see their witness everyday, here.

If you would take a vacation from “judgment,” which seems to be your full time job, you might see the love of Christ in our Catholic brethren.

Anna

 

[TEPO]

where did you get this idea from?

Do you know what “saved” means? Please tell me what it means to be “saved” so we can be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Masters Servant,

Again, with the judgments.

I have seen a great deal of Catholic evangelism–a testament to the love of Christ-- through their lives and interactions with others. I see their witness everyday, here.

If you would take a vacation from “judgment,” which seems to be your full time job, you might see the love of Christ in our Catholic brethren.

Anna

Going door to door is not the only way of evangelizing. The Cathoic Church is approx. 1.3 billion strong, so we’re not doing do bad. Another way of evangelizing is living a good life full of virtue. Personally, I enjoy having people come to my door. I always invite them in. Knocking on doors, however, is very offensive to a lot of people.

I’m sure you’ve heard the quote from St. Francis “Proclaim the Gospel to all the world, use words if necessary”. The best witness is an authentic life in Christ.

I was thinking about that quote earlier, but couldn’t remember who said it. So glad you posted it.

Anna

 

[Masters_Servant]

I had many reasons for leaving the Baptist Church. Condemning Catholics, along with so many others, was only one of them.
Your statement:
The Christian also knows who is saved and who is damned? Please provide support for this claim.

I am speaking primarily of the individual Christian, which the references were given as 1 john 5, Galatians 4 and the most conclusive Romans 8. But the Christian that knows the Word of God is able to recognize in many cases the current state of the soul of another based on whether one accepts the gospel or rejects the gospel. Why else would God command the Christian to go out to all the world and share the gospel and for those that accept salvation and those that reject damnation at that point of time. (Matt. 28) Believe me if you give the gospel to someone and they reject it; you would bring reproach on yourself and on God by not ending it with a warning of the consequences of such a decision. You may have only planted a seed if one rejects at the time one is confronted with the gospel and the bad news for rejecting it, but that seed may later be watered and bear fruit. IOW, the tare that walked away, may later become wheat.

You are not God. You do not know the heart of anyone, other than yourself. You do not know who is saved and who is damned. You do not have the right to speak for God regarding the destiny of one’s soul.

I am not God; that must have taken a lot of time and thought to conclude. Anyone who knows the gospel and shares it is speaking on behalf of God and we are called to do so 9; it is known as the Great Commission; perhaps you have heard about it? One can know at a point in time who is damned; if they reject Christ after hearing the gospel they are damned; how difficult is that?

Why do you hang onto the belief that God would not allow an individual know with certainty, when He clearly says in His word that we can know and I believe He wants us to know; otherwise why bother telling us we can know or call anyone a Christian or talk about the transforming power of His word in the life of an individual?

You have no right to judge Strawberry. You see “agnostic” in her religious designation and rush to judgment.

Pleas try not to get condemnation confused with discernment based on a person own words. Agnostic: A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God. Well that is pretty darn clear rejection of not only Jesus, but of the word of God. Add actual statements and the rejection becomes even more obvious. Are we called to be quiet or to tell the truth? Tell the truth, well I have been obedient to my Lord and as the OP put it; not in an attacking manner, but factual according to the upward calling of the Christian in sharing the good news predicated upon the bad news. (Matt 18)

What you do not know is that there was a time when Strawberry listed herself as only “agnostic,” without any reference to “Catholic leanings.”

I have talked with Strawberry. I have prayed for her family, when she asked for prayers. I know she is on a sincere journey seeking the truth.

It takes courage for Strawberry to come to a religious forum and admit she is “agnostic.” Her honesty makes her vulnerable to attacks such as yours. You assume Strawberry is on the path of “damnation,” when she may very well be on a path that leads to salvation. If Strawberry finds Christ through the Catholic Church, I will rejoice with her.

You are either on the path of destruction or you are on the path of life; there are no in between taught in Scripture. Anna cannot save; only God can. It is good you have open dialogue and have prayed for her and her family. I would rejoice in the salvation of any soul. You say she is “on a sincere journey seeking the truth” so you must be able to see her heart, which you earlier claimed no one can; so which is it? Are you concerned I might “mess up” Anna’s work and turn Strawberry away from God? That is to believe you have some authority to change a persons soul & destination and that I have the power to turn one away, which neither of us do because salvation is the work of God.

Continued - Next Post

 

[Masters_Servant]

I ask you to consider these passages of Holy Scripture:

Luke 6 (ESV): 37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

1 Corinthians 2 (ESV):
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,

nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

We are called to love one another and to spread the good news of the Gospel. We are not called to condemn, threaten, or attempt to lead anyone to salvation through fear tactics.

I beg of you, for your own sake, to prayerfully consider the words you speak.

Anna

Anna; you do not realize the hypocrisy in your own words when you make, what are false assumptions, concerning my intentions as though you can read my heart. False accusations about “attacks”, when the reality is I have reiterated what the Word of God has said and many do find it offensive and you appear, appear by your own words, only appear, to be one of them; I hope that is not true.

You are right we are called to love one another and proclaim the gospel; so which one of us has been faithful to that end? Threats as you call them; are warnings about the severity of rejecting the gospel. Personal attacks are what you call them, but telling the truth of the gospel, which includes the warning, or threat as you mark it, is commanded by God to be given by the Christian to the unbeliever. Again I have been faithful to that end.

I beg you to consider your own words, accusation and judgments and the double standard you espouse and the resulting hypocrisy.

7 The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; [But] the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

1 if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee; 2 So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures: 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah giveth wisdom; Out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding: 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the upright; [He is] a shield to them that walk in integrity; 8 That he may guard the paths of justice, And preserve the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness and justice, And equity, [yea], every good path.

 

[Masters_Servant]

No Masters, not changed it, simply made it more clear in wording.
Are you being resentful or hurt because of the fact that we Catholics acknowledge those Protestants who are separated from the Apostolic Church because of the rebellion 500 years ago through no fault of their own, and have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula(Father, Son , and Holy Spirit),but the still cannot admit them to full unity because they have not, as yet, been able to acknowledge the full Truth?
We believe you are Christians and we love you and respect you,and we want you to return, however , full unity with the Apostolic Church has not been reached. Our hope is it will be, the Church prays for the desire of Christ for full unity of his flock everyday.
Peace,
Carlan.

Carlan; I call a spade a spade and you chose not to; I have studied this in detail because it interested me. There was no need for clarification; it was already crystal clear in dogma, bull and per pre Vatican II catechism. This issue has been addressed on several forum’s including this one and some Catholics a re very offended by the change , while others take your point of view, which is the post Vatican II point of view.

You stated: “Are you being resentful or hurt…”? No I could care less; I have seen and I believe if my memory recollects it is in the CCC that “separated brethren” can and are be part of the Catholic Church even if they “do not realize it”. I must admit I chuckled a little on this one; which I should not since it is very important to many Catholics. I am not Catholic and I’m sure I know it. Some would say i am damned as a result of such a statement while others would say, he just doesn’t know he is Catholic.

The reason it does not matter to me is because it is the words of men and not the words of God as I have come to see and understand. But I don’t judge nor concern myself with the issue because it is not my issue. I stand solely on the cross of Christ and what more do I need other than Jesus? Nothing.

If you look closely at the history of your church, the last statement in your post shows a great change in the church; where it use to be exclusive; it now is becoming or has become “all embracing”. Right or wrong? It is what it is. If you want to embrace all people, then to do so will mean to put aside doctrinal differences and embrace so type of commonality.

As a side note, the church of Jesus Christ is fully united with Christ in Christ on a spiritual level, not a physical level. Ironically it will never be united on the physical level in the present church age. The only way that could possibly happen would be to toss aside doctrine in favor of “getting along” and that won’t happen until the actual church of Christ is removed and the one world religion is ushered in. then even that will last only a short while because it is built on men and not God.

Thanks for sharing with me; you thoughts and understanding of the Catholic teaching on this; although we have digressed from the topic, which indicates that perhaps the topic is wore out for now.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Jesus is the Church, He is the Bridegroom the Church is his Bride, they are one, Jesus gave the Bible to the Church through his Bride the Church. excuse me please, themade me do it, Peace, Carlan

I guess your Bible does not contain the OT, which makes up 2/3 of my Bible - just thinking. Haven’t read anything in it pointing to the “church”, but rather Christ and the way of salvation in Christ. The church is the primary means He chose to use to bring in the called or elect.

 

[Masters_Servant]

The canonization process is a long and involved ordeal. It is certainly not based upon “a snippet of ones life” or a “myth of someones supposed life”. Without going into great detail (there are many sites where you can gather information on the process) it usuaully takes several hundred years from the death of the Saint. There must be several miracles performed through the intercession of that Saint (after they have died) which are scrutinized by a Bishop who has the official title of “Devil’s Advocate”. If the miracle is some sort of healing it must be determined, through outside medical opinion, that there is no natural answer for the healing. One dramatic exapmle of this would be the little girl who had been blind from birth. She actually was born without pupils. Her mother prayed
for the intersession of Padre Pio and her daughter received the gift of sight. The big catch is that she could see, even though she still had no pupils. I believe she is still living today and still has no pupils.

I will agree that some saint’s lives have become almost myth due to overly pious people exagerating their merits. I will also agree that the Church has speeded up the process for some such as St. Francis of Assisi due to popular demand of the faithful. There were so many miracles attributed to his intercession that it was possible to do this. The bottom line is that one cannot be canonized unless the evidence is irrefutable. It is not done on a whim.

I have looked into this in great detail and in the 1960’s the Catholic Church had to purge a few saints, being very conservative, because of what I have said. I won’t argue your point about being canonized unless something is “irrefutable” because that term is very subjective and used very loosely and based on the judgment of men; the same men that condemn those that presume to know their own individual salvation.

I do appreciate you sharing the Catholic point of view, which I agree with most of what you said because it accords with what I have read as the Church explains it.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Anna, I just gave the answer off the top of my head. You really should look at the Church’s official position on this. I watched a documentary on the canonization process and it was really fascinating. I couldn’t believe how involved it really is. There are many Catholics as we speak who are calling for and waiting for Pope John Paul, II’s canonization and want it yesterday. On one hand, if Pope John Paul, II is not in heaven then I don’t have a chance. I don’t think there is any doubt in anyone’s mind that this is the case, yet he has still not been canonized. I’m fairly certain that there have been three miracles (two healings from cancer and one from Parkinson’s) attributed to him which are still being investigated. I’ll try and find a good source for you.

Does anyone see the problem here; the sin of presumption is being revealed and it is like “do as I say, not as I do”. You cannot know about your own salvation with certainty, but we can declare with certainty about someone else. I don’t think I will understand this.

 

[Masters_Servant]

The “church that is the body of believers that transcends all peoples, tribes, tongues and nations” sounds like the Catholic Church to me. Its kind of what “catholic” (universal) means, its where we got our name.

As for “any other claim is just a claim or a belief” I beg to differ. Show me another church that has documentation proving an unbroken line of succession from Peter to Benedict. Show me another church with 2000 years of documented history. Show me another church that gave God’s word, the Bible to the world. I could go on. My point is that the CC is THE ONLY church that can can actually back up its claims with real evidence. No other can even make the claim, much less prove it.

It has had form and substance since the beginning. A real hierarchy, real bishops, real priests, real authority and most importantly the Real Presence. As far as Christ being the substance, you could not be more correct. We have the Eucharist, the true “substance” of Jesus’ body, blood, soul and divinity. It doesn’t get more substantial then that.

As for faith, if we cannot see our faith in each other then what good is it? If people cannot see our faith in the way we live then I would doubt its presence in our lives.

All Christians come from an unbroken line of believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior and this is the true church. Paul warned about looking at genealogies in the manner which you described. Genealogy does not have to be exclusive to relatives.

On the flip side; the 2000 years of unbroken genealogy in the context of our discussion is with any person standing behind the pulpit soeaking the word of god as it was from the beginning.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Going door to door is not the only way of evangelizing. The Cathoic Church is approx. 1.3 billion strong, so we’re not doing do bad. Another way of evangelizing is living a good life full of virtue. Personally, I enjoy having people come to my door. I always invite them in. Knocking on doors, however, is very offensive to a lot of people.

I’m sure you’ve heard the quote from St. Francis “Proclaim the Gospel to all the world, use words if necessary”. The best witness is an authentic life in Christ.

That sounds like an excuse to me for letting someone else do the work. Many people are offended by the gospel; in fact most are. Jesus told the disciples and the 72 to expect to be rejected and scorned and ridiculed for preaching or giving the gospel directly to people and advised to to dust off their shoes and move on. The parable of the soils is a perfect example of how a majority who receive the gospel will reject it. As Christians we do not concern ourselves with offending people if our heart is set on glorifying God.

1.3 billion; that depends on who you speak to in this forum. Some here who are highly regarded would say that the “cafeteria” Catholic is not a Catholic at all and would also say that is the majority that fall under the Catholic umbrella as the cafeteria variety. Based on my own experience in meeting and knowing a few Catholics; some will freely admit and others just admit by picking and choosing to adhere to the authority of the Pope.

Thanks for giving your (name removed by moderator)ut on this, but I think this might be for another day and a different thread.