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Masters_Servant
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I have seen this as a signature on some folks here; it is a shame this St Francis appears to be taken out of context and used as an excuse to not do what Christians are commanded to do. Certainly a Christian life is a powerful witness and not everyone is called to go door to door but have been given other talents to utilize to give the message.
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kalt
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Which saints were purged?
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kalt
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Anna_Scott
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Masters,I am speaking primarily of the individual Christian, which the references were given as 1 john 5, Galatians 4 and the most conclusive Romans 8. But the Christian that knows the Word of God is able to recognize in many cases the current state of the soul of another based on whether one accepts the gospel or rejects the gospel. Why else would God command the Christian to go out to all the world and share the gospel and for those that accept salvation and those that reject damnation at that point of time. (Matt. 28) Believe me if you give the gospel to someone and they reject it; you would bring reproach on yourself and on God by not ending it with a warning of the consequences of such a decision. You may have only planted a seed if one rejects at the time one is confronted with the gospel and the bad news for rejecting it, but that seed may later be watered and bear fruit. IOW, the tare that walked away, may later become wheat.
I am not God; that must have taken a lot of time and thought to conclude.Anyone who knows the gospel and shares it is speaking on behalf of God and we are called to do so 9; it is known as the Great Commission; perhaps you have heard about it? One can know at a point in time who is damned; if they reject Christ after hearing the gospel they are damned; how difficult is that?
Why do you hang onto the belief that God would not allow an individual know with certainty, when He clearly says in His word that we can know and I believe He wants us to know; otherwise why bother telling us we can know or call anyone a Christian or talk about the transforming power of His word in the life of an individual?
Pleas try not to get condemnation confused with discernment based on a person own words. Agnostic: A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God. Well that is pretty darn clear rejection of not only Jesus, but of the word of God. Add actual statements and the rejection becomes even more obvious. Are we called to be quiet or to tell the truth? Tell the truth, well I have been obedient to my Lord and as the OP put it; not in an attacking manner, but factual according to the upward calling of the Christian in sharing the good news predicated upon the bad news. (Matt 18)
You are either on the path of destruction or you are on the path of life; there are no in between taught in Scripture. Anna cannot save; only God can. It is good you have open dialogue and have prayed for her and her family. I would rejoice in the salvation of any soul. You say she is “on a sincere journey seeking the truth” so you must be able to see her heart, which you earlier claimed no one can; so which is it? Are you concerned I might “mess up” Anna’s work and turn Strawberry away from God? That is to believe you have some authority to change a persons soul & destination and that I have the power to turn one away, which neither of us do because salvation is the work of God.
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You missed my point entirely. You are making one false assumption after another. Sometimes one’s journey to accepting Christ takes time. The word of God is spoken and demonstrated on these forums everyday.
Yet, the tone of your posts is both condescending and judgmental, as if you are the only one who understands and believes the Word of God. No matter what anyone says, nothing seems to get through to you.
Anna
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fbl9
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To dwell with God in heaven.
Now can you please answer the question: How can one reject that which they have no knowldge of?
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fbl9
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Well if a certain person is gone form this world yet God still works through the name of this person do you think that this person is not with God?That is how the destination of this person was deterimined, by God still working through this person.There is no judging invovlved rather deduction…
The very fact that i am still on this mud ball tells me i am not saved for if i were saved i would not be here but with God in heaven.I am certain though that i am **being ** saved through the mercy of God.
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Truth_Seeker17
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If I may, I’d like to jump in and give my two cents. So, how do we know if we really are saved? Well, first of all, God, not man, is ultimately the judge of all (Psalm 135:14; Hebrews 10:30; James 4:12). It is not my place at all to point fingers at someone and judge them just because they do something I don’t like (Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 14:1). Yes, I should try to look for fruit in them and try to discern whether or not they’re legit (Matthew 7:15-20), but I will never know their heart. My best friend who externally is a devout Christian might internally despise the Lord; a notorious criminal who, on the outside, does not seem to fear God at all, might very well be a wayward believer who is trying his absolute hardest to return to the path of Christ. At the end of the day, when it comes to other people, I don’t know where they’re at with God. I can get a pretty good idea based on their good deeds (or lack thereof), but I will never know for sure. It is between that person and God.
However, just because I don’t know whether other people are saved, doesn’t mean I am unsure whether I myself am saved. Personally, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that I truly am saved, that I truly have received the gift of salvation because of the grace of God. I do not consider my confidence in that I will go to heaven when I die to be ‘presumptuous sin’; rather, my assurance confirms God’s love and mercy. If I, a totally depraved sinner, make a sincere decision to acknowledge my transgressions against God, confess my sins, repent from my evildoing, and commit my life to following Jesus and practicing righteousness – if I truly do this, then I have become a child of God. My sinful lifestyle, which results in death, is no more; I have been made spiritually alive through Christ (John 5:24; Romans 6:2, 11, 14, 20-23). I have assurance that I will be going to heaven when I die (Hebrews 10:1, 14, 17-23; 11:1; 1st John 1:9; 2:1-6). And once I have become one of the chosen people of God, He will never let me out of His hands, no matter how much I’ve messed up (Romans 8:38-39). Before I was even born, God knew I would follow Him (Jeremiah 1:5; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:8-10 1st Peter 1:1-2; 2:6, 9). My Father knows the very hairs on my head, and nothing in this world will cause Him to let me go.
To conclude, I will quote Job 19:25-27 in the King James Version, “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” Job doesn’t seem to have any doubt whatsoever of the salvation God has given him. He knows that because he has turned away from evil and lived a life glorifying the Lord, he will see Him in heaven someday. And I could say the exact same thing about my own walk with God.
Thanks for reading, and God bless.
However, just because I don’t know whether other people are saved, doesn’t mean I am unsure whether I myself am saved. Personally, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that I truly am saved, that I truly have received the gift of salvation because of the grace of God. I do not consider my confidence in that I will go to heaven when I die to be ‘presumptuous sin’; rather, my assurance confirms God’s love and mercy. If I, a totally depraved sinner, make a sincere decision to acknowledge my transgressions against God, confess my sins, repent from my evildoing, and commit my life to following Jesus and practicing righteousness – if I truly do this, then I have become a child of God. My sinful lifestyle, which results in death, is no more; I have been made spiritually alive through Christ (John 5:24; Romans 6:2, 11, 14, 20-23). I have assurance that I will be going to heaven when I die (Hebrews 10:1, 14, 17-23; 11:1; 1st John 1:9; 2:1-6). And once I have become one of the chosen people of God, He will never let me out of His hands, no matter how much I’ve messed up (Romans 8:38-39). Before I was even born, God knew I would follow Him (Jeremiah 1:5; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:8-10 1st Peter 1:1-2; 2:6, 9). My Father knows the very hairs on my head, and nothing in this world will cause Him to let me go.
To conclude, I will quote Job 19:25-27 in the King James Version, “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” Job doesn’t seem to have any doubt whatsoever of the salvation God has given him. He knows that because he has turned away from evil and lived a life glorifying the Lord, he will see Him in heaven someday. And I could say the exact same thing about my own walk with God.
Thanks for reading, and God bless.
- TS17
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TEPO
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This is where our problem is…
I believe that “saved” means -to have your sins washed away.
I do NOT believe that “saved” means “dwell in heaven”
Therefore, maybe now you can understand why I say that only those who believe in Jesus Christ can have their sins “washed off”…
There is no other source for having sins “washed off”. Only Jesus! THAT is why Jesus died on the cross for the WHOLE WORLD TO SEE… So the WHOLE WORLD could have the option to have their sins taken away…
Finally, I say that souls can get to heaven however they wish, I dont care how… But “salvation” or “saved” are OUR words… To be saved is a private gift… We have no authority to hand it out to any Tom, Dick or Harry. That would be a disgrace to GOD who sent His Son to die as a spectacle in humiliation for the whole world to see…
They cannot… But catholics need to understand, that outside of Jesus, there is NO salvation… Only Christians can be saved, because “saved” is a gift that one can only recieve condtitionally… Yes it is a gift that has conditions. Its not freedom, its not a right. It is a precious gift…
Mark Chapter 16
"He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."
And again, those who are excluded from the New Covenant because they havent heard, then they’re just excluded… But lets stop acting like “salvation” is a free-right.
Anyone who is sinless has the hope of heaven… But there is only one way to be “saved” (salvaged).
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TEPO
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flb,
I feel an apology is in order, I am truly sorry if I have acted harshly towards you… I am in a heavy dispute with another poster named fms…
I totally thought you two were the same, so now I am completely confused…
This other poster is on the other thread “RE: ARE MUSLIMS SAVED”, and I am in a heated debate and totally got you two mixed up.
I offer my deepest apologies, as I am having much frustration w/ the other poster… I am truly sorry.
(although I do think the salvation/heaven distinction is important)
God Bless,
TEPO
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Carlan
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So you are tell ing me that you are going to be a living saint from here to Eternity, even if like Judas you sin and don’t repent and do your self in, or you sin mortally time and time again, that it will be o.k 'cause our Jesus paid for your future sins as well and he didn’t really have to give us commands to follow and on and on ? Sounds to me like you are off to heaven on a feather mattress as far as sin and keeping the commandments go. Seeker.
Peace, Carlan
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Truth_Seeker17
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Consider the following analogy. I have signed up to play on the basketball team. I show up for practice wearing a T-shirt, gym shorts, and hi-top basketball shoes. I have showed the coach that I want to be on his team, and that’s ultimately all he wants. Even if I don’t make every basket, he will still sign me up for his team because I have come ready to play. I am practicing basketball. If, however, I show up for practice wearing shin guards, kneepads and a helmet, the coach is definitely not going to sign me up for his team since I haven’t shown to him that I’m ready to play. Even if I make quite a few baskets, the bottom line is that I am not able to practice basketball. The coach will conclude that since I didn’t do so much as get ready to play, I never really wanted to be on his team in the first place.So you are tell ing me that you are going to be a living saint from here to Eternity, even if like Judas you sin and don’t repent and do your self in, or you sin mortally time and time again, that it will be o.k 'cause our Jesus paid for your future sins as well and he didn’t really have to give us commands to follow and on and on ? Sounds to me like you are off to heaven on a feather mattress as far as sin and keeping the commandments go. Seeker.
So when I first accept Jesus into my heart, my lifestyle instantly changes. I show God that I want to be one of His sons by obeying His commandments and doing good works. I practice righteousness. But even if I don’t do the right thing every single time, God will always forgive me because I am still practicing righteousness, not sin. And when I do sin, I don’t just say “oh well, God’s grace’ll get me out of this one; I’m good.” No, I will definitely confess my sins to God and repent from my wrongdoing. But even if, for whatever reason, I do not immediately or directly confess a particular sin I’ve just committed, it’s not like God is going to hold that against me or anything. Because I have given my life over to Jesus, He has already forgiven all of my sins – past, present and future. Again, He knows by name and will not let me go no matter what (Jeremiah 1:5; Romans 8:38-39).
To summarize my views on this topic, I will paraphrase a thoughtful quote from the pastor of my church, “Christians don’t have to be sinless; they should simply sin less.” Faith produces works, not the other way around. Both are necessary for salvation, yes, but true belief will always include good deeds.
This is somewhat off topic, but I think what’s hindering us from coming to a consensus is the fact that our presuppositions when it comes to the definition of ‘sin’ are inconsistent. You seem to believe in different levels of sins, while I believe that all sins are essentially ‘equal’ in God’s eyes. I can totally understand why one would not be absolutely certain of their salvation based on their understanding of the difference between venial and mortal sins. I respect your point of view, Carlan, but I would like to remind you that if you’ve committed one sin, it is the same as committing them all (James 2:10). So is there really any difference between a venial sin and a mortal sin?
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Carlan
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Thanks for a very good post TS. There is a very big dif between venial and deadly Mortal sin. venial example, indifference toward God,putting other things before God, sports or hobbies and such ,tempting God, you get the picture.Those would be considered venial. Example of Mortal Sin, Artificial birth control, abortion, vasectomy,murder, despair of God’s Mercy, Presumption (committing a mortal sin with the idea you can just go to confession), all are just few examples. In the Catholic liturgy of the Mass.all venial sin is repented of and forgiven by God, Mortal sin must be repented of and forgiven by God in Sacramental confession and forgiveness and absolution given by the Priest who acts Persona Christi, in the person of Christ, per Holy Orders ,same as an Apostle,such sin is serious business, Hopes this helps clear up the difference..
This is somewhat off topic, but I think what’s hindering us from coming to a consensus is the fact that our presuppositions when it comes to the definition of ‘sin’ are inconsistent. You seem to believe in different levels of sins, while I believe that all sins are essentially ‘equal’ in God’s eyes. I can totally understand why one would not be absolutely certain of their salvation based on their understanding of the difference between venial and mortal sins. I respect your point of view, Carlan, but I would like to remind you that if you’ve committed one sin, it is the same as committing them all (James 2:10). So is there really any difference between a venial sin and a mortal sin?
God bless and Peace to you, Carlan
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Carlan
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Dear TRuth Seeker, sorry I should have been more specific the above quote and given you Scripture chapter and verse for the sacrament of reconciliation.
On the supernatural level, we confess our sins to a priest because Jesus gave to his Apostles the authority to forgive sins(Mt.18:18; Jn. 20:21-23) The Apostles passed this authority onto their successors, the Bishops, who in turn extend this authority to the Priests. A priest cannot forgive something of which he is unaware, the sin must be spoken to the priest.
tThe normal mode of communication is to speak and to hear, so the ordinary means of forgiveness is through confession of our sins and hearing the words of absolution.
We must remember that as members of the Mystical Body of Christ, when we sin we offend not only the person against whom we sinned, but also our Lord and his
His Church (theMystical Body). For this reason we need to be reconciled with the person against whom we sinned, with God and wit h the Church.
The priest in the confessional is the representative of both God and the Church. So, this reconciliation comes through the ministry of the priest.
On the natural leval, we have an absolute psycholgical need to tell someone else what we have done. We also have a need to hear that we are still acceptable and accepted.
Our Lord knew this and provided the means for this to occur.
What a joy it is for us to know that when we leave the confessional our sins are gone, we are restored to the state of Grace and our relationship with God is reconciled.
Lying on one’s bed and talking to God brings the hope that our sins are forgiven, but not the knowledge that they are in fac gone. This assurance happens only in the confessional.
Hope this long post gives better understanding. Peace , Carlan
Fr.Robert Altier
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On the supernatural level, we confess our sins to a priest because Jesus gave to his Apostles the authority to forgive sins(Mt.18:18; Jn. 20:21-23) The Apostles passed this authority onto their successors, the Bishops, who in turn extend this authority to the Priests. A priest cannot forgive something of which he is unaware, the sin must be spoken to the priest.
tThe normal mode of communication is to speak and to hear, so the ordinary means of forgiveness is through confession of our sins and hearing the words of absolution.
We must remember that as members of the Mystical Body of Christ, when we sin we offend not only the person against whom we sinned, but also our Lord and his
His Church (theMystical Body). For this reason we need to be reconciled with the person against whom we sinned, with God and wit h the Church.
The priest in the confessional is the representative of both God and the Church. So, this reconciliation comes through the ministry of the priest.
On the natural leval, we have an absolute psycholgical need to tell someone else what we have done. We also have a need to hear that we are still acceptable and accepted.
Our Lord knew this and provided the means for this to occur.
What a joy it is for us to know that when we leave the confessional our sins are gone, we are restored to the state of Grace and our relationship with God is reconciled.
Lying on one’s bed and talking to God brings the hope that our sins are forgiven, but not the knowledge that they are in fac gone. This assurance happens only in the confessional.
Hope this long post gives better understanding. Peace , Carlan
Fr.Robert Altier
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StrawberryJam
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I’ve been told that there is a poster on this thread who would like to continue discussion about some comments I have made here. Unfortunately, I am not able to spend the time reading back that far to see what is causing such a rukus.
I’m around today, in and out so if you are out there please feel free to ask away whatever it is you wanted to challenge me re: this topic.
I’m around today, in and out so if you are out there please feel free to ask away whatever it is you wanted to challenge me re: this topic.
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fbl9
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Thank you for the apology and i do offer the same to you for being harsh in responding to you reply to my post…Saved is to have one’s sins washed away…to me that is only the begining of God’s work in us not the completed “project”…the completed project is when one is **safe ** in heaven.Where one can sin no more, I would say that you should say instead being saved is the washing of sins, beacuse (well for me) it is a daily washing…Ponder the masses of persons whom have died since Christ’s ascension that never had the chance to even hear the good news, How can Christ’s sacrifice be applied to them in your context of what saved means. It can’t so all those persons have been condemned for the fact that they did not have the opportunity to have heard the good news.Now that does not sound like Christ’s sacrifice was for all mankind.flb,
I feel an apology is in order, I am truly sorry if I have acted harshly towards you… I am in a heavy dispute with another poster named fms…
I totally thought you two were the same, so now I am completely confused…
This other poster is on the other thread “RE: ARE MUSLIMS SAVED”, and I am in a heated debate and totally got you two mixed up.
I offer my deepest apologies, as I am having much frustration w/ the other poster… I am truly sorry.
(although I do think the salvation/heaven distinction is important)
God Bless,
TEPO
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StrawberryJam
Guest
- I take this to mean that you believe all christians will see death, even at the second coming?
- I take it you agree with me then, that salvation can not be assured. Since that falls out of the 2 things you believe anyone can be assured by.
- If you would like to debate the word Truth, the value of the bible and it’s worth, and support your naked assertions that go on from there, please start a thread in apologetics so we can discuss them. I never mentioned the bible, it’s worth or otherwise.
4)which of my comments were “silly”? This is a subjective comment. I am more than willing to discuss objective things with you. I am still unaware of your objections to my post since you have not dealt with them directly, or even indirectly. Ad hom does not refute anything.
How is this any kind of proof? Bible=Israel existing
How about this? The Shoah= God ignoring his people’s plight?
Neither work for obvious reasons.
Again, you may have a point if Egypt no longer existed, but as it stands you have no point. You are basically drawing conclusions that fit your preconcived ideas/beliefs.
Whatever does this have to do with my post? Threats of hell are not making the elephant in the room dissapear. I would appreciate it if you could refute the points I made in my post or stop addressing me or my post. I am willing and able to stand by what I say. And, change my position if given more credible information. Can you?
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The hell card was already used once here by you, does it get more believable with repetition? I thought protestants were against vain repetition? Unless you feel it’s God’s will to needlessly repeat yourself in the course of one post.
There you go tossing the word fact around as if it is “fact” merely because you or your interpretation of the bible is telling you that it is.
What can be “greater judgment” than eternal hell? What? I am well aware of the doctrine. You make it sound as if I am at risk for some greater fate than I currently would have if I died today. I’m not even sure you realize you are limiting God to act in any way he pleases should he decide to. Who would you be to question him if he did?
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Anna_Scott
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You found him: Masters Servant.
I hope you don’t mind what I said about you in my response (quoted below) to Masters Servant.
I really hate it, when the threat of Hell is used as a tool to proselytize.
Your friend in Christ,
Anna
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TEPO
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This is where my problem lies… I can find no catholic definition for “eternal salvation”… I disagree with its use in the CCC paragraph 847… I don’t know of any Catholic who can define “eternal salvation”. Salvation (saved) is more like a “gift” or a “remedy”… The completed “project” is known as: “sainthood” (everyone who lives in heaven is a saint)
These are teh 4 parts of salvation (saved):
agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Defining%20Salvation.htm
- sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
- redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
- forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
- justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.
This is my problem: When catholics start trying to figure out how to include more people into Gods plan -we have just overstepped our boundaries… Salvation is not our’s to give, only God can offer it… He offered it for ALL MEN when he made His Son a spectacle of humiliation and disgrace… God did that on purpose… So ALL MEN who are good -would heed the call. Jesus was even able to rescue the trapped souls of the O.T who were not able to enter heaven since Adams fall (the gates were closed)…
I think that we should just forget about those who did’nt hear the word… Let God do what God does since it was His idea. I say this because we have lost our focus on Jesus… We are forgetting the seriousness and magnitude of the new covenant. I’ve seen catholics fade off and try to include even devout Muslims into the plan of salvation?
One catholic went as far as to say that the 9/11 bombers would be in heaven because of their faith…Read my little story:
A man went out to buy his wife a very special valentines day gift but had to travel 40 days by foot to get it… On his way he was lied to and abandoned by his best friend… Then the authorities falsely accused him of trespassing and threw him in jail… While in jail he was beaten, mocked, spit-on, stabbed, and humiliated in front of hundreds of people… Three days later he was released and hobbled home to his wife… With tears in his eyes he handed her the gift… She holds it, lets off a sigh, sets it down and says: “its nice but I wanted something better that I could take to share with my friends.”
This is how I feel. Does it make any sense?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
You just mocked justification if I understand what that means correctly. I think Lutherans and Catholics understand the gift Jesus gave was Justification, not sanctification. I am open to correction on this matter however.
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